Supercharging n62 - M60 m62?

[Greenday694]

Hello, figure I will post up a project that I've been working on. Besides my E36.
I'm in the final stages of a prototype air-to-air intercooled Eaton m122h , that will also accept the 2.3 l TVS.
I am installing it on a n62b44tu. When completed the entire assembly will set 10 mm taller than the stock intake manifold. It will be a two-part manifold/collection pan. The first part will be the intake plenum and runners. With a 3-in inlet in the rear. The collection pan will sit between the two sides of the plenums, with a 3 inch outlet pointing forward and to the left side of the vehicle. The idea is the outlet from the supercharger will run to the front of the car to a air-to-air intercooler, then to the back of the engine behind the supercharger into the main plenum. It will also have its own separate drive belt.
Also have plans to make it fit the M60 and the m62 engines.

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[BimmerBreaker]

A few tuners experimented with this type of s/c on the N62. Because this installation sacrifices the variable length intake runner manifold, it did not end up providing the sort of power gains they were expecting. There's a reason all the s/c kits on the market, including the Alpina B7, ended up retaining the stock intake manifold. The best gains were had that way.

Cool but until verified independently by a third party Id be a little hesitant regarding the power potential. It will gain some, but unlikely to be worth the effort based on the past results of numerous reputable companies.

[Greenday694]

I completely agree that the variable length runner intake is a very good and beneficial design. And if there was a possible way of keeping it I would.
With a side mount centrifugal supercharger, there would be no need for an aftermarket intake manifold. That being said, this is a positive displacement supercharger PDS which has entirely different characteristics than a centrifugal supercharger.
The centrifugal supercharger has a rising boost curve. At low RPMs it produces 0 to very little boost. The longer runner intake would definitely be very beneficial in this situation. The PDS, has more of a flat boost curve. And depending on pulley combination, can produce quite a bit of boost just off idle.
Just like any other modification that you do there are always trade-offs. From my experience, giving up the benefits of the variable length runner intake manifold for instant boost has always netted an increase in low-end torque followed by mid-range and high RPM horsepower.
Once this is built and up and running, I will be having it professionally tuned at Kassel performance. On there mustang dyno, aka heartbreak dyno.


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[Greenday694]

Quick update, project is coming along very nicely. I managed to lower the supercharger an additional 13 mm. The idea is, I would like to be able to put the plastic engine cover on over the supercharger. With some modifications. I personally like the stealth look. I know I will not be able to hide the drive pulley and belt, but to the untrained eye I would like it to look as close to stock as possible.
Of course for those who would rather have the supercharger sitting on top of the engine in all its Glory, just leave the plastic cover off.
I'm also looking into aftermarket fuel rails. The earlier engines had a return system, the later ones did not. So if I can find a fuel rail that can easily be used with both systems that would be ideal. Keep production costs down=keeps resale price down.
At some point I am going to need to test this on the five series. Just to confirm Hood clearance.
That is kind of a problem with doing things in CAD, and test fitting on one particular model and engine. There's always unforeseen issues that may come up. But I will continue to push forward with this system.

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[Greenday694]

Well I finally finished up the prototype. I went and bought an M60 b30 engine, had to make a few minor adjustments for it to fit on the older m engine. The nice thing about the M60 engine is that the crank pulley and water pump pulley main drive belt assembly is in front of the water inlet outlet on the engine. So I will use the main drive belt to run the supercharger. The n62 engine, I had to design a new pulley to bolt on to the front of the crankshaft pulley for the supercharger.
Other than that the entire supercharger assembly will fit on the M60, m62 and the n62. The n62 will just have an additional drive pulley and tensioner assembly.
We are also designing our own fuel rail. It is possible to modify the original to work but it would not be as good of a fit.
Within the next week I will finish TIG welding the prototype. Right now it's only spot welded together. Then work on tuning the n62. Which I already know is going to be a little bit of a problem working with the valvetronic. Mostly at idle and slightly above idle. Because the throttle body does not actually close all the way. Which would mean the supercharger would be getting more air than the engine wants and trying to build boost while the valvetronic is keeping the engine at a lower RPM.
The throttle body is not just there as a backup. The intake manifold has a map sensor that sends a signal to the DME, and the DME tries to regulate a very low amount of vacuum in the intake by way of the throttle body. So that the PCV system works. Unfortunately it is not enough vacuum to open a bypass valve.
The brake booster does not need vacuum from the intake it receives that from the vacuum pump on the front of the cylinder head.

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[GazM3]

Sounds like you are making good progress on this. A boosted m60 is awesome. I’ve been playing with mine for some time now and it’s now running 4into1 headers and a stand-alone ecu on e85 and up to 17psi of boost. I’m now looking at dialing out some boost as it makes a mess of 2nd gear in the dry on sticky tyres!

[Greenday694]

Sounds like you are making good progress on this. A boosted m60 is awesome. I’ve been playing with mine for some time now and it’s now running 4into1 headers and a stand-alone ecu on e85 and up to 17psi of boost. I’m now looking at dialing out some boost as it makes a mess of 2nd gear in the dry on sticky tyres!

Yeah I can't wait to get it up and running. At first it will be on the n62b44, in my 745 li. That should be interesting to hear the supercharger scream under the hood of this big boat. Although I will not turn the boost all the way up. The supercharger is capable over a bar. Probably keep it at about .5 to .6 bar. Not sure how much the stock engine can handle.
Tuning this ECU seems to be a whole nother problem. ME 9.2 I believe. I believe fuel and timing can be tuned. But I also need to tune the throttle body. So that it works nicely with the supercharger and doesn't overwhelm the valvetronic. I'm also looking at possible standalone ECU that have a programmable can bus. Because I need a signal to the mechatronic unit in the transmission for that to work right. As well as probably 10 or 20 other systems in the car. Since everything is connected together over a can bus Network. The M60 and m62 will be much easier to tune. The older cars are much easier to modify. One of the reasons why I love my OBD1 E36.

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[GazM3]

Most good stand-alone ecu will work fine with the can-bus but the factory ecu I’d imagine would be more tricky. Even with the older obd1 setup I had issues on the standard ecu hitting over 5v sending it into a mini “limp mode” and also up to about 5200rpm ish it would drive well and then it would dip rich then gradually go to leaner towards the cutout so you had to set the transition point very rich about 9.5:1 to get high 11’s at the cutout. It was probably the point where it was reading from the narrowband to the standard calculations.

[talhasadiq700]

Hi, any update and progress in this? I have n62b48 and i really want to supercharge mine

[Greenday694]

Yep all the white prints are complete putting it into CAD and PDF for production.
Going to finish welding up my rough prototype, and put it on the car to get it up and running.
And after speaking with some tuners, I have come up with a few ideas on how to make the valvetronic happy with the supercharger.
Happy DME happy life

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[talhasadiq700]

Please keep me posted i am down for this

[talhasadiq700]

Btw kindly guide? I have n62b48 and not an n62b44. I know someone who sells adaptor plates and eaton m122 supercharger with built in water intercooler but he told me you will have ti figure out
Tuning
Fuel rails
Plugs
Pulley
Water pump
And radiator for intercooler yourself.
Will the adaptor plate be same for n62b44 and n62b48. I am not willing to do all myself since resources are limited and craftmanship is not very good where i live. I will be willing to buy a complete plug and play kit though

[Greenday694]

Those are very good questions. And yes we plan on making this kit has complete as possible.
It will be air-to-air intercooled. And we already have charge pipes and intercoolers that are compatible with this supercharger.
I have also designed custom fuel rails. That will allow you to use the same injectors the engine came with, and also go to larger injectors for your specific car. I try to use as much of the OEM equipment as possible. Like not swapping to a completely different design of injector that requires modifying the wire harness to use them.
The M60 and m62 engines will use the factory accessory belt.
Because of the water pump and thermostat housing design on the n62, we are adding a custom drive pulley to the front of the crankshaft along with our own custom tensioner assembly to run a separate belt just for the supercharger.
Both systems will retain all of the factory accessories.

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[Bmw530ilife]

I’m so glad someone is documenting this well. I’ve been putting off forced induction simply to see how this compares to ESS in cost and performance. These motors love boost, just wish there more of a market for it.

[Greenday694]

We did understand going into this that there's not a huge market for it. But it kind of fits in with the way that we do things . Dare to be different.
Me personally I've never followed along with what everybody else is doing. And I apply the same thing to engineering. Without breaking any rules or laws of physics. Maybe bend them a little.
And we do plan on being around for many more years. Expanding on where we started from, but still offering our initial kits. 10 years from now you will still be able to buy a brand new V2 supercharger kit.

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[Bmw530ilife]

I’d love to chat more about purchasing a kit for my 545i build. Let me know when you’re ready.

[Greenday694]

Here's a little update photo.
This is still a very rough prototype. The cad and PDFs are almost finished and will go into production. Once I received the first proof, and test fit to make sure everything is correct, it will go into full production.

The throttle body relocator will be designed to accept the drive by wire throttle body. We will offer our own mechanical throttle body to replace the early m60 throttle body plate that has the idle control valve. The idle control valve will be relocated to the passenger side rear of the supercharger. Same as on the m1 kit.

I'm really looking forward to getting this running so we can begin the tuning process. Then we will know what size injectors will be needed.



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[BimmerBreaker]

I certainly still have my reservations but if an independent third party verifies substantial gains over stock and the cost isn't crazy I would be in for a kit.

The larger N62 4.8 TB should also be interchangeable with the earlier 4.4, probably would be good to source one of those. The N62 doesn't usually use the TB in normal operation either so I'm curious how the tuning is going to be handled with this.

[MisterM52]

I’m so glad someone is documenting this well. I’ve been putting off forced induction simply to see how this compares to ESS in cost and performance. These motors love boost, just wish there more of a market for it.

If I am right, the same kit is almost interchangeable with the M60 and M62 engines.
A couple of other kits I have seen barely push any boost 6-8PSI with mostly centrifugal stuff that costs an arm and a leg vs this giant thats rated to push 14-25PSI and allows the fitment of even larger superchargers.
Whats the usual tuning strategy for them?

I certainly still have my reservations but if an independent third party verifies substantial gains over stock and the cost isn't crazy I would be in for a kit.

The larger N62 4.8 TB should also be interchangeable with the earlier 4.4, probably would be good to source one of those. The N62 doesn't usually use the TB in normal operation either so I'm curious how the tuning is going to be handled with this.

Definitely reservations are good, but don't let that blind sight you.
By the laws of physics and fluid dynamics, when you double the atmospheric pressure, thats a bar of boost, you theoretically double your engine HP. But no engine is 100% Efficient, nor is any turbo / supercharger.

Choosing between 1 bar of boost / 14 PSI in one of these engines and having it left N/A with the stock intake manifold. Its a easy choice, for power output, puts you near that 450-500 engine HP (or some 400whp) mark after your 15-20% drive train loses. Whether if the engine can hold the power and the tune is done to utilize the extra air available, is another matter.

Very true about the price, it should be reasonable. So, what do you think is a good price point where you as a person would find it fair?

The tuning is a obstacle that needs to be overcome, Revmatch was going to do the tune for this one. Lets see, as of yesterday, the prototype is working.

[BimmerBreaker]

I think a price would depend on the quality of tune (I'm not willing to lose the valvetronic for example) and the power it gained. For my application I think I'd also be doing some custom work to make it fit, so being able to order just some components instead of everything would be great. For example the intake pipe I saw on the post you shared elsewhere would not fit my application

I also don't see how one kit can fit M6x and N62, as intake manifolds do not interchange between the two. I don't recall the differences being huge so maybe you just have some extra holes available and the specific application will depend which are used.

- - - Updated - - -

I do believe the tune will be the hardest part though. ESS and other companies experimented with s/c kits like what you have here but ditched it for a stock manifold/centrifugal type like the Alpina B7. As I understand it their difficult was with the tune, keeping Valvetronic happy - and with making appreciable power over stock.

[Greenday694]

I fully intend on keeping the valvetronic. As you have seen in the pictures the prototype is on the n62. Controlling boost pressure is going to be the key in tuning. Wide open throttle, valvetronic at maximum lift, and boost will be the easy part of the tuning. Tuning boost at part throttle is going to be the tricky part.

You are correct the intake manifolds are different. The n62 has the mounting studs in a row. The M60/M62 has a staggered bolt pattern. As well as the front and rear bolts on each Bank are also in slightly different locations. Shorter distance between the front and rear studs on the M60 m62.

Initially I started out developing this manifold for the M60 engine that I have here. After that I decided to see if it was possible with some minor modifications to make it fit the n62. The answer is yes. I have it running on my 2002 745Li. It runs decent, but obviously starts to run lean on acceleration when in boost. Starts up as it always did.

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[BimmerBreaker]

I do believe the m6x would be a much larger market for a cheap f/I option, many options have come and gone over the years and demand always seems pretty steady. But, as an N62 owner Im very happy to see them supported by the aftermarket.

Hope you keep at it and see this through to fruition. 450hp+ would be awesome out of the 4.4, and the 4.8 should make even more. Id certainly be one of your first customers (again, provided price is reasonable)... I have a ~3100lb n62 car that would love another 120-150hp or so

I have a feeling using the TB to manage airflow will provide some answers regarding low load tuning (if your tuner can modify tb operation I have some other stuff I may want done on a purely n/a second build of mine). If you end up needing a tester at any point I'd gladly be a guinea pig. Id be willing to do a before and after dyno too, I think that info would certainly help move some units...

[Greenday694]

I do believe the m6x would be a much larger market for a cheap f/I option, many options have come and gone over the years and demand always seems pretty steady. But, as an N62 owner Im very happy to see them supported by the aftermarket.

Hope you keep at it and see this through to fruition. 450hp+ would be awesome out of the 4.4, and the 4.8 should make even more. Id certainly be one of your first customers (again, provided price is reasonable)... I have a ~3100lb n62 car that would love another 120-150hp or so

I have a feeling using the TB to manage airflow will provide some answers regarding low load tuning (if your tuner can modify tb operation I have some other stuff I may want done on a purely n/a second build of mine). If you end up needing a tester at any point I'd gladly be a guinea pig. Id be willing to do a before and after dyno too, I think that info would certainly help move some units...

We will definitely keep you in mind as a tester.
And not to worry, we are very much invested in this project. Most likely have more money and time spent into it then what we might make out of it. But we do not believe in giving up when seemingly impossible problems arise.

"In failure there can be lessons, in perseverance there can be results."



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[jaanusku1]

Is the prototype ready to be sold?

[armoredpanda]

im also interested for my 6sp 550i