How Much Does it Cost to Restore a Car?

[E39 Newbie]

By definition appearing on GR's show makes you a failure. Right? I can understand his intolerance for the stupid and lazy.

Reality shows? I think this comes naturally to many of them and for the most part what you see is what you get.
If you had a well regarded shop and some twit with a camera asks you to act the fool for potential customers to see would you?

The restaurants probably needed a shot in the arm. One owner told me the producers told her to act crazy and cry a lot, which she did. I guess to make GR look like a pro marriage counselor, or something?

I saw stuff on Boyd's show that boggled my mind. No good shop in the world would do some of the bonehead stuff they did. Stuff like immediately upon completion of a fresh build they didn't check the cooling system for leaks or use a vacuum filler, didn't try water first, whatever. Just fill 'er up with coolant, fire it up and watch coolant p**s all over the shop. After visiting his shop a few times I came to the conclusion that lots of that must have been for entertainment purposes only.

[ross1]

The restaurants probably needed a shot in the arm. One owner told me the producers told her to act crazy and cry a lot, which she did. I guess to make GR look like a pro marriage counselor, or something?

I saw stuff on Boyd's show that boggled my mind. No good shop in the world would do some of the bonehead stuff they did. Stuff like immediately upon completion of a fresh build they didn't check the cooling system for leaks or use a vacuum filler, didn't try water first, whatever. Just fill 'er up with coolant, fire it up and watch coolant p**s all over the shop. After visiting his shop a few times I came to the conclusion that lots of that must have been for entertainment purposes only.

Perhaps comforting to think so, especially if writing six figure checks, but I'm not convinced. Boyd himself came off as quite an A hole, not sure he'd do that deliberately.
What's the old saying? Truth is stranger than fiction.

[sleuth255]

I've watched these guys do freaking near impossible repairs before but never seen 'em restoring an E39:

Mechanic James Team E39 Restoration on Facebook.

You might need a FB login to view....

[ross1]

DA for final sanding?? Yikes!
I want that engine stand

[sleuth255]

Looks like they whacked the pulley taking the fan off also...

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Coddington’s show had drama in it because the drama ridden producers were all a bunch of fruitcakes that worked for Discovery. Reality tv is the show killer in all these shows. I never met Boyd Coddington, but a few people that I know, who have known him, all said he was pretty much an Ahole later on in his life, I don’t know, maybe his health issues were getting the better of him? He always had a loyal following.
Dave Kindig and his shop are on a totally different level. Gold digger? The guy and his guys have bumped themselves up to a higher level. I have seen quite a few cars that he’s put out, they are on a totally higher level, and they all perform. If I had the kind of money that his typical level of clients dish out? Would I have him do a car for me? Even though I love doing everything for myself, yeah, I probably would, and that goes against the grain, I lose respect for people at car meets when I meet them, and when they speak about their car, and I can tell they didn’t do a damn thing on it, but dish out the money to have someone else do it, so….. No! With that in mind, I take it back, maybe I wouldn’t have Kindig do me a project. But then again, I don’t have that buy in money to get him to take on a project, that would probably change my whole outlook on the matter, so maybe I’m just talking out of my ass, who gives a crap? But one thing I do know, when I had a fully restored MGB with a V8 in it, it was a great feeling knowing that it didn’t have a spec of rust in it, all the modifications in it were all done by me, and guy in a Z06 had a hard time keeping up with me out on the highway, zipping in and out of rush hour traffic, yeah, that puts a genuine smile on my face. Calling Kindig a gold digger? He has earned his keep, he has grown a following, and they are willing to throw their cash at him, and he provides a proper one off custom that performs? More power to him! I am a fan, and I have met him, he is genuine, and still down to Earth.

Dan Short is the biggest moron, and his shop, and all its stooges, are all a bunch of hacks. All the retards that get their cars done there deserve all the hacked up garbage that their cars become. Watching a few episodes and seeing how some of the cars that rolled out of that hermit hole had me busting up. His brake test on a customers Vette, locking up the brakes and stamping flat spots on the guys tires, a joke. Glad those Discovery dorks cut the show, he could go out of business for all I care.

[jp5Touring]

My Sons shop get asked two or three times a year to do a tv show. They have always declined.
TV producers always have some stupid idea on how to represent the shop.
One idea was to go up against another shop as rivals and fight with them and be all drama. No thanks.
I don't know how Kindig gets anything done with all the TV.
They do build some very nice stuff and have some very talented people.

I wish a show would just take one car and show all the work thats needed to do a proper job.
I like Project Binky on YouTube. Those guys can fabricate about anything.

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

Stacey David’s Gears show is a good show, no drama, no bs, just good wrenching, good ideas, good process, good information, and good guitar playing.

[ross1]

Fantomworks; Sat down in front of the TV while having my lunch today and catch the tail end of an episode where they install the radiator too close to the fan or fan to close to rad with predictable results. At the end of the show where he is presenting the 5 figure labor bill the camera catches a good shot of a page showing charges for repairing the radiator.


Next episode features one of those last of the Avanti IIs. During the presentation of the finished product to the customer(with a $58K labor bill this time) the camera pans the interior. The gearshift indicator is held in place with two mismatched screws, one appearing to be a flathead wood screw, the other a round headed one that appears to also have been buggered up a bit.
Here it is:

P1010002 (1).jpg

[StephenVA]

quality comes with a price.....

[JimLev]

That looks like a sheetrock screw.

[SW530]

Fantomworks; Sat down in front of the TV while having my lunch today and catch the tail end of an episode where they install the radiator too close to the fan or fan to close to rad with predictable results. At the end of the show where he is presenting the 5 figure labor bill the camera catches a good shot of a page showing charges for repairing the radiator.


Next episode features one of those last of the Avanti IIs. During the presentation of the finished product to the customer(with a $58K labor bill this time) the camera pans the interior. The gearshift indicator is held in place with two mismatched screws, one appearing to be a flathead wood screw, the other a round headed one that appears to also have been buggered up a bit.
Here it is:

I have to wonder if that was a poor quality restoration or perhaps editing.. where they used certain clips they missed of the after from the before.

[StephenVA]

It is a TV show for those who know nothing about the costs, efforts and shop time to build, restore, and assemble quality builds. The guy in Norfolk VA's show (Fantomworks) is all low budget builds to get them running and looking good. The drama is all for the camera. Kindig's group is what happens when you hire the best craftsmen for each stage of a custom build. You can move lots of builds through a shop and people will give you an open check book to pay for super quality. Fantomworks is a nice shop if you want a "driver" not a show car.

Take a look in your own area and see how hard it is to find anyone willing to do quality work on a rust prone vehicle. 90% of body shops would rather do insurance work instead as it is predictable and profitable with only a few hidden surprises and the check clears the bank. Most owners want a cheap price on any "restoration" and have zero clue on what it might take to make the car right. In the 2000's it took 750-1,000 hours to do a high quality build on a production car. Today that requires a lot more as the standards have move way up the scale.

Just watch Graveyard cars for a guy who started in a two bay garage and now has a two year supply of cars waiting for a Factory restoration. Costs $150+ on cars that cost $3500 max when new. Ignore all the antics from the owner as he owns the film company too so it is all about him. Egos go with the show. See any reality TV show for example. Filter out the crap and watch as you might learn one thing per show.

Yes all the crap is irritating but that is what viewers want.

[ross1]

I have to wonder if that was a poor quality restoration or perhaps editing.. where they used certain clips they missed of the after from the before.

This is a still I took from the scene. They were panning the fresh interior that DD was waxing poetic over. It was delivered that way.
The radiator issue was an oops thing during the episode. Unfortunately for the customer DD made it a line item on the invoice which the camera captured for posterity.

[ross1]

It is a TV show for those who know nothing about the costs, efforts and shop time to build, restore, and assemble quality builds. The guy in Norfolk VA's show (Fantomworks) is all low budget builds to get them running and looking good. The drama is all for the camera. Kindig's group is what happens when you hire the best craftsmen for each stage of a custom build. You can move lots of builds through a shop and people will give you an open check book to pay for super quality. Fantomworks is a nice shop if you want a "driver" not a show car.

Take a look in your own area and see how hard it is to find anyone willing to do quality work on a rust prone vehicle. 90% of body shops would rather do insurance work instead as it is predictable and profitable with only a few hidden surprises and the check clears the bank. Most owners want a cheap price on any "restoration" and have zero clue on what it might take to make the car right. In the 2000's it took 750-1,000 hours to do a high quality build on a production car. Today that requires a lot more as the standards have move way up the scale.

Just watch Graveyard cars for a guy who started in a two bay garage and now has a two year supply of cars waiting for a Factory restoration. Costs $150+ on cars that cost $3500 max when new. Ignore all the antics from the owner as he owns the film company too so it is all about him. Egos go with the show. See any reality TV show for example. Filter out the crap and watch as you might learn one thing per show.

Yes all the crap is irritating but that is what viewers want.

Agreed. Compared to Kindig and GYC? Yes, Fantomworks is a budget operation. This doesn't excuse him. Take away the shiny paint jobs and he's not much more than Vise Grip Garage.

[sleuth255]

I wonder if any of these guys can do a complete frame up restoration of a more modern car such as an E39. BCW routinely does full, frame up restoration where they completely strip the car then dip the body parts to remove corrosion before reassembling, reupholstering, and reworking most of the electrical harness/dash functions. They also do modern brake and crate engine conversions, but I've never seen them work on anything newer than ~1970s era vehicles. More modern cars such as ours have become incredibly complex from an electronic perspective, so much so that I would be very doubtful of any shop that made claims that it could completely strip it down and do a ground up restoration. BCW did the equivalent of this on my driver's side door (which itself is relatively simple compared to other parts of the car but actually has over 8 discreet functions) and they made one mistake due to mixing up two connectors that were identical. Even getting the door card off requires specialized knowledge (that little screw buried in the air vent leaps to mind here). I'd be worried to even consider somebody tackling the entire car. Heck, after reading all the engine threads here, I'd be worried about a shop without specialized E39 era knowledge even tackling a motor rebuild...

So maybe a 6 figure restoration shouldn't be attempted on an E39 if the end goal is to bring it back to factory spec.

[ross1]

I wonder if any of these guys can do a complete frame up restoration of a more modern car such as an E39. BCW routinely does full, frame up restoration where they completely strip the car then dip the body parts to remove corrosion before reassembling, reupholstering, and reworking most of the electrical harness/dash functions. They also do modern brake and crate engine conversions, but I've never seen them work on anything newer than ~1970s era vehicles. More modern cars such as ours have become incredibly complex from an electronic perspective, so much so that I would be very doubtful of any shop that made claims that it could completely strip it down and do a ground up restoration. BCW did the equivalent of this on my driver's side door (which itself is relatively simple compared to other parts of the car but actually has over 8 discreet functions) and they made one mistake due to mixing up two connectors that were identical. Even getting the door card off requires specialized knowledge (that little screw buried in the air vent leaps to mind here). I'd be worried to even consider somebody tackling the entire car. Heck, after reading all the engine threads here, I'd be worried about a shop without specialized E39 era knowledge even tackling a motor rebuild...

So maybe a 6 figure restoration shouldn't be attempted on an E39 if the end goal is to bring it back to factory spec.

Oh, yeah. Once (if) there is demand there will be shops to fill it. I think there are plenty of us here old enough to remember how complicated cars felt when early emissions systems began appearing. Variable valve timing seemed like rocket science a few decades ago now guys do it their driveway.
There isn't a mechanical or electrical part of these cars that intimidates me and I'm an amateur. I couldn't do any programming or coding and you'd certainly prefer to have Ray Charles perform your body work. I could dismantle and re-assemble the car correctly. None of the shops are one man operations.

[sleuth255]

Well, you have specialized E39 knowledge too. I've been in the electronics of my car enough to know how complex it is and how many idiosyncrasies it has. But a shop that's never done an E39 before doing a full strip and restore? Look at the pics above of the hacks that go into the simple cars. I chose to micro-manage the work that BCW did on mine and I'm glad I did. I suppose that anyone considering a ground-up restoration should also be very knowledgeable of their E39. Its the tiny things like the kind of tubing used for the windshield washer systems or the variance in washer nozzles themselves for that matter. BMW even has a specific aiming guide and makes a special tool for the washer systems lol. Over the top of course but in a full factory restoration this is the kind of detail that separates the outstanding examples (worth the 6 figures that went into them IMO) from the rest of the pack.