Member
@Jimlev did everything I mentioned sound good to you? If I'm taking off upper timing covers on left side and right side then essentially I'm almost retiming the whole engine.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Yes.
By now you’re a pro at it so it shouldn’t take you more than a few hrs to do everything.
Member
Sounds good. I'm not going to lie, I'm very tempted to try the method someone else mentioned and just pin the trigger wheels through the upper timing covers so I don't have to remove them. It would save me a good bit of time. It's bank 1 where I have to remove the tensioner that I get nervous about. Everything else sounds fine.
Chances are when I get the tools I will indeed end up taking them off though. I would hate to do this a 6th time so I'd rather not risk it and do it by the book... again....
Member
If you are confident that the initial alignment using the blocks on the cams was accurate, then it will be sufficient to re-position the position wheels.
If already the camshaft alignment was not on point OR the Vanos Units had not been moved completely counterclockwise before / while tightening, then it will NOT help to move the position wheels.
Member
I understand. I'm confident Vanos was fully counter clockwise when installed and cams were blocked down when engine was timed.
Member
IF so, you could lock the crankshaft at TDC with the lock pin, then remove the valve covers and the oilers, and install the cam blocks.
The cam blocks should fit in very well immediately without even wrenching on the cams. That would or should confirm the correct initial alignment of the cams, and the only problem is then the re-adjustment of the trigger wheels; no need to remove the timing covers.
If the cam blocks do not fit in easily, then you proceed to full re-timing
Last edited by Chedley; 02-07-2023 at 12:17 AM.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
^_Not so. The Bank 1 intake cam will always need to be turned to get the cam lock block to fit on.
Maybe that’s why you are having timing problems Chedley.
Member
Correct, the lash adjusters and valve spring tension will always turn the inlet camshaft clockwise on DTC - so it needs to be retarded counterclockwise to fit the Vanos Units left-hand mechanical end-stop
Member
8 months after this whole debacle has started. I had retimed the engine 4x already. Yesterday I did it a 5th time. Got to work early did EVERYTHING as I was supposed to using BMW's AIR program. Had a different master technician verify my work after everything. I slap it all back together after torquing everything to spec. I drive the car home and around the block to finally enjoy the car again only to find that damn CEL pop back up. This time the intake cam on BOTH banks is over-retarded. Pulling the valve covers off yesterday showed that the cams were indeed off. I just don't know why this continues to happen. What am I doing wrong. What are these Master Tech's doing wrong that is causing this engine to be such a pain in the ass to fix. Everything is torqued to spec, every minute detail is completed. I don't know how many more times I can pull the valve covers off of this thing.
- - - Updated - - -
Keep in mind I used a different set of OEM BMW timing blocks this time. What annoys me the most is that the car feels much better and it doesn't seem to turn the CEL on until I get on it. Babying the car for 20 min won't do it.Originally Posted by Matt.tez
Member
I'm not the thinker JimLev is, but I have been down this trail before.
2 things I made DAMN sure of:
The mating area's of the cam shaft, VANOS, trigger wheel, and the nut & bolt that secures them were void of ANY oil.
The upper timing cover is flush with the head.
I hope this helps.
Wind in His Hair
Member
One thing I forgot to mention is the surplus amount of plastic shavings that I found in the bank 2 Vanos solenoid and the timing chain. Previously, while fighting an over-advanced code, the CEL would come on immediately after idling alone. Now, I am able to drive the car at low RPM's without getting any codes. I did so today for about 20 minutes scanning and scanning to no avail. I then decided if I could make it pop up by getting on it and letting it hit higher rpms and almost immediately it came on (over-retarded cam bank 1 and 2) . I'm starting to think at least this time, it may not be a timing issue, but instead just from trash in the engine that is not allowing Vanos to function properly??
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
When you start the engine the DME always tests the vanos.
If either one of them fail the test both vanos are shut down.
You should retime the engine. It’s probably on the borderline of failing the tests but does when you beat on it.
Last edited by JimLev; 07-09-2023 at 09:33 PM.
Member
I could time it a 6th time, but wow. What could we be doing wrong? �� my legs are sore from being bent over all day. Pretty frustrating doing everything by the book and not getting good results.
Member
Haven't read the whole thread in a while. But, have you considered using GAS timing tools? I know Jim has good luck with the BMW ones, but many swear by the GAS ones. I have done 4 jobs with mine and they always work perfectly. Just trying to add some food for thought. I am sure it is so frustrating diving back in so many times. Lot's of work....
Member
I've decided I don't want to try and re-time it again using OEM timing tools. Before I do ANYTHING again, I'm going to drop the oil pan and check my oil screen and pump and make sure those are clean and clear and flush my engine out with oil several times since I've been reading a lot about how finicky and reliant on oil pressure the VANOS system is. If you read above I think I already talked about all the plastic shavings I found inside my engine this time. I've been talking to a shop that has a good reputation for retiming M62's and they said the only time they've had as big of an issue as I am having where my timing seems to slip is when the VANOS unit goes bad. They said they bought a used one, rebuilt it and when they installed it, it worked fine. Another issue I could be having is with the cam bolts. I was told they may have already stretched due to how many times I've torqued and loosened them. (this is the 5th time after all. Technically 7th time if we include when I originally had my VANOS rebuilt.) As long as I can afford this battle, I will not accept defeat...
Last edited by Matt.tez; 07-10-2023 at 09:24 PM.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Have you ever take off the distribution units (the part the vanos solenoids screw into) to check for plastic shavings?
Then there’s the check valves that are directly behind the vanos solenoids, you can pull them out to make sure they are clean.
Member
Just play with the trigger wheels, everyone who gets these issues after a timing job quoting they are 100% sure they got everything torqued down and fully retarded correctly want to fix them using the same timing tools. These engines can seem a little daunting and complicated but if it’s running ok just deactivating the vanos start nudging the trigger wheels, JimLev and others have put this info out there time and time again.
In my experience and thinking due to the slight tolerance differences in all the non genuine parts, timing tools, wear in the vanos housing, misaligned timing covers and vanos press procedures seem to stack up in this area and I would always expect to adjust the trigger wheel or wheels after a timing job. Those who persist on re timing thinking the same tools that are off the first time are going to get a different result the second time let themselves into an endless struggle of madness and often give up! And those who take the advice and start nudging the wheels, seem to more often than not cure the problem!
Just this week was my 5th time down this rabbit hole on different vehicles and these days I wouldn’t worry about locking the crank or getting too technical, but by all means, you do you, pin the crank and use the blocks if it makes you feel better! Mark and nudge the wheel 1.5mm one way, monitor the change in how long it takes for the code to come on with a basic code reader, if no change or comes on sooner return to where you started and start heading the other way, once the code starts to take longer to appear you know your making progress. In some cases where you have a P0021 code, once cured can lead to a P0011 code on the other bank, same procedure pull the cover and adjust the wheel till they are both happy! It can be a very frustrating process but dam you get good at pulling those covers! 15mins is easily achievable once you’ve been round it a couple of times haha! Software showing vanos angles can speed up the process but it can be done without.
Here is a thread on another forum with an M62tu in an L322 RR experiencing the same issue and explaining in some more detail and more importantly curing the issue. He uses the cheaper than cheap Ali express timing kit, which I know from experience are miles out of spec in pretty much every aspect compared with genuine BMW and he gets it to work using this method in the end!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-rang...ment-m62.html?
Don’t get me wrong, there are other documented instances including my own where this code is caused by other issues or contributing factors but this would be my first port of call before getting yourself too excited with buying new vanos units or pulling the motor apart. The code has no reference to wether the wheel is Over advanced or over Retarded it just means it’s wrong, you have at least 4 moves of the trigger wheel in 1.5mm increments 2 in each direction with no change to the codes to rule this out. It’s surprising how far you have to move them sometimes, even if the cam blocks and locking pins all fit as they should and your timing procedure was correct.
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Last edited by LincsM62; 07-11-2023 at 01:54 PM.
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