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I had a accident last year due to the factory ABS at Road America and I am now installing a PTG widebody and a MK60 ABS from the E46 M3. I also dropped a valve last year so I am doing a complete rebuild on my E36. has anybody done the MK60 swap and used a E46 booster with a E46 brake pedal. It is what I ordered but haven't fitted it yet. Looks like the pedal will just fit in the E36. Overall the car is a 700WHP DCT swapped E36 M3 soon to have PTG widebody! If you want to check out some of my HPDE or build videos you can see it here: YouTube
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Wow. That's incredible. Not much help (yet) as I just ordered the MK60 swap parts myself but did not get the e46m3 booster as I understood it was not compatible. What harness are you using or are you going DIY on the harness? I have read a lot about going s54 Mcoupe for the booster but would rather not spend the coin for that, thinking stock with some "shims" or something.
Can I ask what your failure mode was on the factory system? I am super excited to get mk60 functioning so will be following closely.
Member
I am going to make my own harness, I have all the connectors and sensors. I ordered the Z3 front ABS sensors and Rear E46 M3 sensors. I ordered a E46 M3 Master and Booster as a package. I was looking at the Realoem.com diagrams and the E36 and E46 use the same bushings and the same clips to hold the brake pedal in place. It just has a different connection to the brake pedal so I ordered a E46 brake pedal. It will be a bit before I can fit it since the Widebody is being done at the moment. I will confirm if it all works. I had a issue with the stock ABS when braking from high speed, the ABS started cycling and then it stopped and the pedal went rock hard and I couldn't get it to do anything before going off track. I was going around 170mph when this happened also, luckily there is a big runoff and gravel before going into the wall.Originally Posted by olemiss540
-Mike
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How do you like the DCT? I have an EFR 9180 on a fully built S52 running 93 pump plus meth and am probably more in the 725 rwhp range, and need to find a trans that makes me happy for my street driving. Broke some ZF320. Now using a GS6-53 but don’t really like it. Would consider a T56 Magnum or a built DCT or even a 4 speed (or 6 or 8) automatic. Using a tuned stock ECU and am not sure if that limits the driveability of a DCT or modern auto. Any suggestions?
Member
Holy smokes. Glad you made it out OK Mike.
Member
Yea, WOW 170 even into a gravel pit is not ideal.
Member
FYI, when hooking up the Brake Light Switch on the MK60, make sure and get it right, one of the commonly used documents out there has it wrong.
Correct is:
MK60 considers BLS off when input is GROUND.
MK60 considers BLS active when input is floating (or 12v).
Also, BLS should activate before pressure sensors read 5bar.
Some folks run without the yaw sensor, but it really helps under trail braking (turns rear axle from 1 channel to 2 channel at 0.6 lat G).
Member
DCT is the best yet, I am running LinkECU standalone for engine management and DKGecu for the transmission. I switched to DCT after breaking 5 ZF320's a couple in less than 30min on the track after replacement. I thought about GS6 but in the end went DCT. You will need a Standalone engine management to pull timing/torque reduction between shifts, I also use DBW for the throttle body so I can have it blip the throttle to match on downshifts. I have run a lot more than 700whp through the DCT with no issues but I usually limit power to 700whp range for road racing. So far the transmission has given me no issues with handling 700whp for 30min sessions on track. It is capable of 700tq at full pressure in stock form. I can drive it on the street and with some tuning it drives comfortably but is a bit noisy.
-Mike
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I did not know about the BLS needing to activating before 5bar, I will have to make sure I get that right, thanks. I do plan on hooking up the yaw sensor since I have it.
Thanks
-Mike
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I went into the gravel pit at about 100mph so it was braking but very limited. The whole side of the car has huge rock chips in the paint it was crazy. All the safety equipment made it feel like nothing when I hit the tire wall. I had hans, 6pt and good seats
-Mike
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Thanks, had a passenger also and we were both fine. Unfortunately the passenger forgot to turn on the camera so I don't have the video of it
Member
Does anyone know what "shimming" an e46 m3 brake master cylinder to fit an e36 booster means? I am trying to decide what booster I need as the s54Mcoupe booster is NLA. Does a used z3 3.0i with DSC's booster work with the larger e46M3 master size?
Also, does anyone have a lead on the best ABS wheel speed wiring to utilize for the harness? I am going to run new wheel speed wiring.
Last question, is it a horrible idea to mount the pump inside the cabin? Maybe to clean up the engine bay and get the pump away from my LS headers......
With my e46330 front brakes, e36m3 rear brakes hoping the large e46m3 master will be a good firm pedal. If there isnt an easy solution, guess I will need to look at Scotch style booster delete fab and going to a smaller z3 master cylinder to make the pedal not a brick?
Mike,
Hope you dont mind me asking these questions here, just thought it fit well within your thread's intent. Happy to delete.
Drew
Last edited by olemiss540; 01-24-2023 at 10:06 AM.
Member
Wiring, I bought shielded wire from mouser.com. I could probably find the part number if you need (later today at my garage). The ABC computer isn't extremely picky about that wiring, it seems to be well designed to filter out noise, etc. A lot of folks use the ground shielding on the E36 sensor wires as a signal wire for the MK60 style sensors, and it works.
I've seen several folks mount the pump inside. I considered it. I don't think longer hard lines would make any noticeable difference in brake feel.
I know people make it work, but when I deleted booster, I went to 2 independent M/Cs, and ended up with vastly different sizes than available in any dual M/C. I personally think some people hate the booster delete because they don't get the M/C sizes and pedal-ratio right. All that said, the MK60 hides poor F/R bias pretty well. I'm a big fan of getting the "mechanical" bias right and not making the ABS fix all those problems.
Member
Part number would be awesome next time you are in the garage. Figure longer front hardlines would be offset by shorter rear hardlines :-) My front hardlines are already pretty long due to relocation of the existing e36 ABS pump (due to headers) i never got to work.
Member
Mouser.com part #: 566-8451-100
Manufacture part #: 8451 010100
Screenshot from 2023-01-24 14-40-36.png
FYI, the stock E36 sensors have 1 signal wire, 1 ground wire, and shield connected to ground.
The MK60 sensors have 1 signal wire, 1 voltage wire. I can't remember if the OEM MK60s sensor wires are shielded.
But, when I used the above wire I grounded the shield, at one end or the other.
Member
I could not find a description on shimming the E46 master cylinder. I decided to try and fit the E46 M3 booster and Master Cylinder to the E36 by switching the brake pedal instead. The way it attached to the brake pedal is different on E36 vs E46 but the brake pedal uses the same bushings and looks almost identical to the E36 pedal so I think the E46 pedal will fit while using the E46 M3 Brake Booster. Just got the pedal and garagistic bronze bushings today and an update on the PTG widebody, here are the pics:imagejpeg_0.JPGIMG_2542.jpg
|m| (-.-) |m|
BMW E36 M3 Expert
Lol ScotcH style
You're half way there ... why not just use Tilton MCs and be done with it? It's so nice to be able to do the math and properly get the pedal you want. Massive Lee (and maybe others) sell a conversion to use the stock pedals so you don't have to use a dedicated pedal box.
Putting the ABS pump inside cabin, I've seen that ... I don't see why not. Saw it on the passenger floor in one car.
For the wiring, I used similar to aeronaut ... just a roll of shielded twisted pair from an electronics store, nothing special.
Member
Yep, 100% agree, if you're going booster-less, go all the way and get twin Tilton's or Wilwoods or such.Lol ScotcH style
You're half way there ... why not just use Tilton MCs and be done with it? It's so nice to be able to do the math and properly get the pedal you want. Massive Lee (and maybe others) sell a conversion to use the stock pedals so you don't have to use a dedicated pedal box.
Putting the ABS pump inside cabin, I've seen that ... I don't see why not. Saw it on the passenger floor in one car.
For the wiring, I used similar to aeronaut ... just a roll of shielded twisted pair from an electronics store, nothing special.
I fabbed my own bracket and used a Wilwood dual M/C thing.
I have not investigated, but I had this bookmarked:
https://www.compbrake.com/product/bm...l-cylinder-kit
I didn't care for a few of the decisions Massive made on their bracket/kit. But it obviously works.
Member
Mainly money, also reduced complexity (given the integrated pressure sensors in the e46 master), also money.Lol ScotcH style
You're half way there ... why not just use Tilton MCs and be done with it? It's so nice to be able to do the math and properly get the pedal you want. Massive Lee (and maybe others) sell a conversion to use the stock pedals so you don't have to use a dedicated pedal box.
Putting the ABS pump inside cabin, I've seen that ... I don't see why not. Saw it on the passenger floor in one car.
For the wiring, I used similar to aeronaut ... just a roll of shielded twisted pair from an electronics store, nothing special.
If I was going to add new pressure sensor T's to my new brake lines for the Tilton box I could just keep the stock master/ booster anyways. Was just hoping for a 100 dollar (used) booster solution or figuring out how to "shim" my stock booster for the time being.
Hoping with functioning mk60, I will be happy with any solution but if the booster delete really is the bees knees and truly worth all the effort and cost may need to consider putting the install off a bit to save up.
Watching Mike's solution come together but not sure I have room for the e46m3 booster if it's any larger than an e36 booster.
Member
I have the e46 abs in my e36 and do run the booster. I needed to make some spacers to get it to work and it moved the booster away from the firewall to account for the different pedal throw.
ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
THEM:" Get out and let someone else drive"
Member
Thanks! Any high level idea of how thick the spacers were? Would washers be sufficient?
Member
teves.jpg
What I found is with the e46 booster the rod was too long and pushed the pedal up towards the driver. If I remember correctly it was about an inch or so. I took the booster apart from the bracket and you have two set of bolts. The ones for the boost and the one for the bracket through the firewall. If you moved each one half of the length needed you you are able to use up the threads and move the booster forward taking the pedal with it. I bent a piece of sheet metal and used the stock position for the old abs so the teves sits right where the e36 stuff did. I used delrin for the spacers as I did not know what forces I needed to deal with. Doing it again a visit to the hardware store could provide aluminum spacers to do the trick. If you pm me give me you number aand I will go out and shoot a bunch of pictures and text the to you. My lines done look the best but I got 30 track days last year on it and no leaks and the system works great. I did buy a Foxwell to bleed the system but never needed it. I think this is because the system is under the reservoir as opposed to on the other side of the car like in the e46.
Jay
Last edited by Cobra1956; 01-27-2023 at 08:17 PM. Reason: photo
ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
THEM:" Get out and let someone else drive"
Member
What brake pedal did you use, e36 or e46? and was it a e46 m3 booster? I am waiting on the widebody to be done so I can get working on the ABS
Thanks
-Mike
Member
e 46 m3 booster and pedal.
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I found that the pedal was too high so I moved the booster towards the front of the car to solve that. I think there is a Z3 or z4 setup that is a direct bolt up but I went cheap
ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
THEM:" Get out and let someone else drive"
Member
Cobra,
Why cant a stock e36 m3 booster work with some modifications?
Member
The e36 pedal has the female connector with the rod for the booster having the male. E 46 booster is the opposite with a pin used to secure it. More I think about it it might just be the way they connect to the pedals. I have them both and can shoot pic of just look on line and you will see the difference
Last edited by Cobra1956; 01-30-2023 at 06:20 PM.
ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
THEM:" Get out and let someone else drive"
Member
You are too helpful. No worries if you dont have pics handyish, I will be pulling it all apart soon anyways. Just trying to decide which (if any) booster to buy/build.
Member
I bought a booster delete from Massive and never installed it prior to the abs installation. I think drilling another hole in the pedal is what threw me and all I could see in my mind was the pedal bending or breaking or something going wrong when my son was driving the car. I know a lot of people swear by it but as I get older I am less concerned about it and more focused on just being a better driver. I will shoot a picture of the difference but the way the pedals attache is the issue. E46 rod has an eye on it and the e36 has an open jaw. Guessing lots of people could figure it out easier than me but I know what I have works. Nothing leaked and strangely I did not have to use the Foxwell to activate the abs pump to bleed. Again think that was due to gravity. Biggest issue was getting the connectors right and a decent flaring tool. Used niccop line bought in bulk.
ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
THEM:" Get out and let someone else drive"
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