Engine options, again

[aeronaut]

I'm mostly just throwing stuff on the wall to see if anything sticks, cause it's January and it seems slow in these parts.
I destroyed another engine (long story that I'll save for my build thread when I get motivated), so I need another.

I'm probably going to throw money at it rather than time, meaning I'll probably pay Fisher (http://www.fletchermadehorsepower.com/) to build me a bottom end, and he'll build whatever I want. I have a fairly fresh undamaged head I can use.

I know, S54. But there are reasons, so if not...
I can think of 2 questions that might be different than usual:

I have an S50 crank that is begging to be used.
Anyone have thoughts about using an S50 crank with 86.4 (S52 sized) pistons?

The oft mentioned Z3 M52 aluminum block. I have heard that the M54 aluminum block sometimes has problems holding head torques after 1 use, and needs time-serts or such. I'd think same era, the Z3 M52 block might have the same problem?

- Bored in January.

[olemiss540]

Why did I read the thread title and already know who was the poster :-).

Soooo, how about a ls3 long block?

[pshooter]

I've toyed with the ideas of most of the bore / stroke combinations of the m/s5x platform.
Its exhausting. I've been making great power but reliability suffers. As you approach s54 power the brakes, tires become insufficient to truly utilize the power.
The true cost of an LS or S54 swap is near double the cost of the basic engine swap when you start to factor brakes, tires, bodywork, aero, etc. If you want to be one of the fast guys.

Even with a shorter stroke (84mm) as you spin upwards of 7500+rpm now the oil pump drive becomes a weak link. I know I'm not willing to spend the$$$
to dry sump one of these engines.

Of all the E36 folks I track with the best reliability seems to be at the 240-260 wheel or less and just drive the snot out of it.

[aeronaut]

I've toyed with the ideas of most of the bore / stroke combinations of the m/s5x platform.
Its exhausting. I've been making great power but reliability suffers. As you approach s54 power the brakes, tires become insufficient to truly utilize the power.
The true cost of an LS or S54 swap is near double the cost of the basic engine swap when you start to factor brakes, tires, bodywork, aero, etc. If you want to be one of the fast guys.

Even with a shorter stroke (84mm) as you spin upwards of 7500+rpm now the oil pump drive becomes a weak link. I know I'm not willing to spend the$$$
to dry sump one of these engines.

Of all the E36 folks I track with the best reliability seems to be at the 240-260 wheel or less and just drive the snot out of it.

100% !
My S50/52 target is 260 wheel. Basic top-end mods, fresh OEM bottom.

My brakes, tires, suspension are S54 ready, but even so, I agree, S54 engine cost + non-trivial multiplier.
It's all good, and I do love the S54, but.

As far as oil pump drive at 7500, does the S54 pump address that?

- - - Updated - - -

Why did I read the thread title and already know who was the poster :-).

Soooo, how about a ls3 long block?

LOL!
LSx, I'd have to do something about that transmission. Sequential!

[olemiss540]

100% !
My S50/52 target is 260 wheel. Basic top-end mods, fresh OEM bottom.

My brakes, tires, suspension are S54 ready, but even so, I agree, S54 engine cost + non-trivial multiplier.
It's all good, and I do love the S54, but.

As far as oil pump drive at 7500, does the S54 pump address that?

- - - Updated - - -



LOL!
LSx, I'd have to do something about that transmission. Sequential!

T56. Bolts right in....

While an LS or S54 swap would cost double a s52 swap, it won't cost double a built s52 swap I can promise ya that.

If your long term goal is 250whp, than do it as cheap as possible. If it's 280whp+, just do it with a stock piece of machinery (engine) that was built that way from the factory IMO.

I do loath the t56 but a tweak in my driving style has made it much more bearable. Eventually I may go the adapter/dct tranny route from a 135i but that's way down the path.

There is an 8000 dollar ctsV chassis for sale with powertrain in the grm forums for 8k...... A set of mounts/headers and integration into the pdm system and you off and running :-)

- - - Updated - - -

I've toyed with the ideas of most of the bore / stroke combinations of the m/s5x platform.
Its exhausting. I've been making great power but reliability suffers. As you approach s54 power the brakes, tires become insufficient to truly utilize the power.
The true cost of an LS or S54 swap is near double the cost of the basic engine swap when you start to factor brakes, tires, bodywork, aero, etc. If you want to be one of the fast guys.

Even with a shorter stroke (84mm) as you spin upwards of 7500+rpm now the oil pump drive becomes a weak link. I know I'm not willing to spend the$$$
to dry sump one of these engines.

Of all the E36 folks I track with the best reliability seems to be at the 240-260 wheel or less and just drive the snot out of it.

OP has plenty of tire available given his flares. I don't think the m3 brakes are a limiting factor on a stripped (2500-2800lb) e36 unless you are racing it (based on my experience).

[aeronaut]

And, I'm running marginally better Porsche calipers with E46 rotors, front.

[olemiss540]

And, I'm running marginally better Porsche calipers with E46 rotors, front.

By the time you buy an CTSv with LS6 powertain, transmission, BBK, wiring harness, pcm, etc for 8k, and then sell your nice and new (but brokenish) bmw bits, bet you could do it for a pretty reasonable cost out the door. And I think it's even on your side of the country....

Hate to be an enabler ;-)

[aeronaut]

If it were Nov 2022, I'd have more options. I put this off for several reasons until crunch time!

[olemiss540]

If it were Nov 2022, I'd have more options. I put this off for several reasons until crunch time!

Hindsight 2020 but you and I should have bought that dang west coast racecar lol. I regretted that immediately.

Sorry I am no help on your actual OP questions....

[aeronaut]

Hindsight 2020 but you and I should have bought that dang west coast racecar lol. I regretted that immediately.

Sorry I am no help on your actual OP questions....

Jesus, I DO think about that car!!!!

[pbonsalb]

The stock S52 pistons don’t work with the S50 crank but custom S52 pistons would if specified with the pin height to match standard 135mm rods and the S52 crank throw.

[aeronaut]

The stock S52 pistons don’t work with the S50 crank but custom S52 pistons would if specified with the pin height to match standard 135mm rods and the S52 crank throw.

Ahhh, of course, the stroke on the S52 crank is longer, rods are the same, so the pin height has to be different. Duh. Thanks!

[pbonsalb]

Some go S52/M54 3.0L crank and M54 3.0L pistons to get 3.0L with more cylinder wall thickness than the S52 3.2L. Of course less displacement means you need more rpm to make the same power, all other things equal. But other things can’t quite be equal because you need cams that make more power at higher rpm. And maybe a better damper. And a tune. If we still had cash registers, you would be hearing the sounds of the shopping list add up.

[pshooter]

100% !


As far as oil pump drive at 7500, does the S54 pump address that?

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The S54 pump is essentially the same setup with a chain tensioner. (really more like a damper)

Our GTR car (S54 powered) is full dry sump.

[pshooter]

So I was re reading this thread and kinda feel like I cr*pped all over m/s5X engines and such. That wasn't my intent.

All these engines and others (LS) have their dirty little secrets or "articles of engineering interest".
Due diligence and realistic expectation are key. step back and look at the bigger picture to get an idea of the downstream cost. (Tires, brakes' Aerodynamics, etc).

I'll be testing the waters with another platform this season as I'm undecided on continuing to develop $$$ this platform.

How much time on track per season + performance goal + consumable cost
I did 27 days in the E36 last season. It's hard to beat the consumable costs.

[aeronaut]

I didn't view your previous posts as crap-on posts.

At one point, I had my E36 down to under 2400lbs (no gas, no driver, worn out 245x17s, etc), and yea, consumable cost is very low!
"Weight creep" is one thing I don't like about the S54. 50lbs on engine, plus more cooling capacity, plus oil cooler. Yea, the HP makes up for that for accel, but HP doesn't help extra weight for braking and turning.

I LOVE braking at the 1 board on the back straight at VIR.

[olemiss540]

That's true. The slower you go, the less braking you gotta do :-)

[aeronaut]

So if I slow down, I brake less, and go faster! I like this plan.

I have an standing joke with my friends. Data shows I brake for 14 sec per lap. Stop braking, save 14 sec.

[Yahweh]

Built N53, 8000 RPM, 350whp? Doable?

[AJLM34A]

If you stick with the M/S 5X engine, ditch the hydraulic lifters. I went with Perry/Someguy2800/Alien-Engineering's solid lifter conversion and Enem 280/280 cams (also 24lb injectors, 3.5'MAF, and tune) on a stock bottom end semi-fresh head. Then engine revs really fast, the power comes on strong and is pulling all the way to 7100 rev limit.

[aeronaut]

Solid lifters? But then how would I know when I'm getting oil starvation?

[ScotcH]

M54s we have figured out ... it's a pretty simple recipe, but it's not cheap, lol. ~300hp. With stock compression, I'm betting you could do 260 pretty reliably. I just blew up our last engine (3 years) ... I really should have rebuilt it, lol.

I would probably do s54 if I was looking for reliable easy power. 300rwhp all day on a basically stock engine is nothing to scoff at.

But a s50 with 86.5mm custom piston can be a sweet build as well. It'll rev nicer (shorter stroke) than s52. I would do a longer rod, like a Honda 138mm rod (fits our crank perfectly). That gives you better rod angle. 7800rpm and I'd guess 280 with just cams and top end work. We had a 270rwhp S50 with 86mm 11.5:1 bore pistons and Sunbelt cams, revved it to 7400, it was basically an endurance engine ... that was a Stickley motor. pretty mild build, it ran great for years. Just sold the block and crank this year ... it was still perfect.

[aeronaut]

Good stuff ScotcH !

I'ma call my engine builder today or tomorrow and have this discussion with him. He's a big fan of the S54 too. But he'll build anything I want. There's a lot to like about the S54. But also the extra stuff I'd have to add/change: header merge, radiator, fan, throttle pedal, harness/dme, oil cooler, coolant reservoir, intake/filter. All do-able, I know.

Fun winter time discussion.

[ScotcH]

Cable throttle, and Link ECU

[aeronaut]

I've been wondering about this for a while, don't some of the S54 sensors need changed to work with the Link? Crank-position sensor? Other?