Ticking noise after starting

[Sprun24]

I just picked up a 540i M sport. Lovely car in excellent condition and I got it for a pretty good price. The only real issues it's got are abs trifecta, which I haven't had time to troubleshoot, and a ticking noise coming from the engine. I bought this car expecting to do timing chain guides in the summer, but the noise mine makes doesn't really line up with everyone else's. I was told timing chain guides where done 60k ago, but I don't have any way to verify that.

It ticks from 1500-2500 for a short period of time after turning the car on. Temperature seems to have no impact on this, I drove around until it stopped doing it, waited an hour and went for another drive. It made the noise for the same duration of time it did when it started out cold, but the engine was at operating temp from the get go. It lasts for about 3-4 minutes. The rpm range it happens during shrinks as that time progresses. I tried to record a video but the audio in the video doesn't show what it sounds like in real life. Its a consistent ticking that changes speed with engine rpm. It only really does it when in gear, if I'm in neutral it'll happen from 800-900 right after turning the car on but it stops doing this almost right away. It doesn't do it when coasting in gear, only when on the gas. It can be hear distinctly in the cabin but is not particularly loud, if I set the stereo to a reasonable volume you can't hear it.

It idles super poorly when its cold, feels like a muscle car with a massive cam. Lumpy and makes the car shake. It has not thrown any codes in my 500 miles of driving it. This is probably a separate issue but I figured I'd mention it. I own a smoke machine so it shouldn't be a big deal to sort out when I have time.

So far I have replaced the timing chain tensioner and changed the oil with 5w40. Neither of these made any perceivable improvement The car is a 6 speed and the previous owner replaced the exhaust with a pretty poorly welded straight pipe from the cats back. There was no fun glitter in the old oil. It doesn't make any wacky noises when its starting. Its got 91 in the tank.

Any ideas what this could be? Vanos is always described as a rattle, which doesn't fit this. I would think the timing chain guides wouldn't stop making noise after its been on for a while.

Thanks!

[MtnGn]

Sounds like ticking lifters. There will be various opinions on how to address. MY first step would be to run some engine detergent through the block followed with fresh engine oil and filter.

Another easy first attempt would be fuel additives. Here again, there is much debate as to the utility and effectiveness of said additives.

Bottomline, if it is ticking lifters, oil is not getting where it should when it should. If detergents don't unclog the offending oil pathways, replacing relevant components during chain guide replacement should.

Better mechanics than I will soon jump in.

[dtw]

Agree w/MtnGn, classic sticky lifter(s). Very common in my experience when buying poorly maintained cars. On M54 and M62 engines, I have had great luck just tossing some snake oil in. Get a reputable brand like LiquiMoly. FCP Euro stocks it. Do fuel system additive at the same time. Car almost certainly needs a new fuel filter, too.

Rough cold start is probably ignition after you rule out vacuum leaks. The magnesium valve covers on the M62 love to do dissimilar metals corrosion. This often manifests on the coil ground strap bolts and you end up with weird intermittent grounding issues. Start there. Then check the usual suspects - plugs, coils, coil harness continuity, etc.

[sleuth255]

Your local Napa Parts store would stock the LiquiMoly lifter treatment schmuzz as well.

[R Shaffner]

First, some questions: What year is your car? How many miles on it?

Yes on the smoke test, especially if the idle is rough. Best to smoke test both the intake system AND the crankcase. If any timing or cam covers are leaking, that's also a good place to look for an air leak. (These CCV systems can pull a lot of air in through a crankcase leak.)

Another quick test is to remove the oil dipstick while it's running. You should feel a slight vacuum there, and the idle should change when you close off the tube and open it back up. If it doesn't, there's a leak in the system.

Sometimes lifters will tick when the engine is cold and stop when they fill with oil. Other times they'll be quiet when cold and tick when the engine is warm. (My personal theory is that water can get in the lifters with the oil. Then it can turn to steam when hot, which creates an air pocket that causes the ticking.)

Some time ago BMW came out with a service bulletin to try to stop ticking lifters. It said to run the engine at 3,000 rpm or so for a few minutes. The idea is to have the oil pressure high for a while to get flow through the lifters. The easiest way to do that with a 6-speed is to just leave it in a lower gear for a few minutes while you ride along with the rpm above 3,000.

Long oil change intervals and poor maintenance can cause sludge to build up in these engines over time. When I got my second 540, an '02 model, it had 150,000 miles and the OSV (oil separator) was completely clogged. I ran conventional high mileage (meaning high detergent) oil in it for a while, with frequent oil changes. Even ran Rotella 15W-40 in it for a while, which is the high detergent diesel oil speced for the early pre-VANOS models. After a while that cleaned out the sludge and unblocked the OSV.

Having said all that, I'm a bit puzzled by your comment about throttle making a difference. That's a new one. That might point to something else. Usually, if it's a noisy lifter or two you can hear which bank it's on, and whether it's to the front or rear.

Give all that a try and report back. Good luck.

[Sprun24]

Sorry for abandoning this thread. It wasn't emailing me when a comment was added so I didn't think anyone was responding.

MtnGn - I put a can of seafoam in the fuel system and in the crank case before changing the oil. If you think a different brand might do better I'll try it. This helped slightly but not very much. I will try some higher weight oil when it is no longer below freezing every morning to see if it has any effect.

DTW - I smoke tested the intake and found that the ccv gasket and throttle body gaskets were bad. I decided to replace the ccv while I was at it, this completely cleared up my bad idle. Fuel filter is on my list for sure.

R Shaffner - Its a 2002 with 114k miles on it. I did try out the hold it at 3k rpms trick, this didn't change anything. I've put 2000 more miles on the car since buying it and I've narrowed the symptoms down a little more.

1. It makes the noise when warm and cold. The volume and rpms that it happens at change as it warms up, but it never stops doing it entirely. When cold it will do it from 1.5k to 3k rpms. When warm it will do it from 1.5 to 2.2k rpms. It gets quieter when warm too, quiet enough that I can't hear it with the windows up. With the windows down it is still obvious though. It is possible that it continues to make the noise all the way to redline but the noise of the engine covers it. Maybe it just gets quieter at 3/2.2k rpms.

2. It will only make the noise while on throttle more than just a little, which means its load dependent. It makes no noise while engine braking and no noise while revving in neutral.

3. The vanos in this car is definitely bad. After more reading the idle noise perfectly matches that of bad vanos, and it has caused the engine to stumble slightly at 2.2k rpms. I assume this is when the vanos turns on. I had a honda with similar vvt issues and this feels exactly the same. The cam just doesn't adjust as fast as the ignition and fuel timing.

I also managed to record a video of it: https://youtube.com/shorts/w1Q2_4kcaNw
Not sure why it uploaded as a short but it works just the same. This video is with the car fully warm, windows down. Its about 55f outside, oil is at the top mark on the dip stick. You'll probably have to turn the sound up but you can hear it decently well above the drone.

With it being load dependent it really makes me think its an exhaust leak. The previous owners diy exhaust job included a very long exhaust tip that has rusted itself to the the pipe its clamped on. This joint leaks like mad so I couldn't smoke test it, but unless anyone thinks it could be something else I'm going to sawzall this tip off, smoke test it and put another one on. Come summer time I'm going to weld up a stainless catback with a resonator and muffler but I need to get my e36 out of the garage first.

I don't know a lot about engine internals but I wouldn't think noise from the valve train or timing chain would be load dependent. I suspect this isn't relevant but it did throw a code for a misfire on cylinder 5 with fuel cut when I got to 135mph on Saturday(before ccv replacement). It did it twice at this speed, and stopped flashing the cel at me after I slowed down both times.

Thanks for the responses!

[JimLev]

I listened to your video, didn’t hear anything except the exhaust that sounded pretty good to me. Maybe check all the exhaust connections for leaks or loose nuts. The ball socket connection just past the pre-CATs has nuts that rust off if the car spent most of it’s life in the rust belt.
Now that you have the vac leaks fixed a misfire could be oil in the plug wells, a bad plug, or a coil going bad. Have you checked any of them?
Lower oil pressure than normal may be part of the problem. At hot idle it should be above 7 PSI and quickly rise as RPM increases.
There are 2 check valves behind the vanos solenoids that keep oil in the heads and vanos when you turn the engine off. If they are stick open the oil will drain back to the sump.
I rebuild vanos if you’re ever thinking about replacing them. The engine will need to be timed after you replace them.

[Sprun24]

I'll check out all the connections after work today, I haven't really had a good look at the middle/front sections of the exhaust yet. I was looking at how to change the manifold gaskets, really hope its not that. Seems like a pain.

There was a massive amount of oil in the intake manifold, so I'm sure its everywhere else it isn't supposed to be too. I haven't looked yet. Previous owner replaced plugs and coils right before I bought it, so I suspect it wasn't the coils. It had(might still do it, hasn't been long enough) sporadic oil consumption. It would burn no oil for a week and then eat a whole quart in one drive. This absolutely could have fowled some plugs. I'll take them out and see if any look off. I check it every day and haven't let it get below the bottom line, but the previous owner might not have been as on top of it.

Oil pressure is a good thought, I hadn't considered that. Its never flashed the light at me but I'm not sure how trustworthy that is in these cars. I assume to check oil pressure I'd just temporarily replace the stock switch with a mechanical pressure gauge? Unless it actually has a oil pressure sensor that can be read through the obc somehow. The car has castrol edge euro 5W-40 in it. Previous owner had Valvoline 10w30, changing the oil weight had no impact. Both are approved for LL01. I want to try 15w50 but its a bit too cold for that currently.

I am aware of those check valves, I assume they are the cause of the clattering noise at startup. I do intend on fixing the vanos but I was going to rebuild them myself. It doesn't look too hard and I'd rather not have the car non functional for more than a few days. This is also a project for once I get my other car working and out of the garage.

[JimLev]

The oil pressure is only an on/off switch, the pressure isn’t read thru the DME or cluster. The switch has a metric thread.
If you have a BIG vice, a press tool, and a 3/4” breaker bar (1/2” can break) you can do the vanos. I send them from my rebuilt stock and have the old ones returned to me that I rebuild and put back into stock.

[ross1]

"It will only make the noise while on throttle more than just a little, which means its load dependent"

Lifters know nothing about the load being applied.
Couldn't hear anything in your vid but as someone has mentioned this smacks of an exhaust leak

[sleuth255]

I caught it. After turning the corner when he got on it. Had to turn my volume all the way up. Didn't like the sound, sounded internal like piston slap.

[ross1]

I caught it. After turning the corner when he got on it. Had to turn my volume all the way up. Didn't like the sound, sounded internal like piston slap.

Yep, heard it too. NOT exhaust.
It was hard to tell the cadence, crank speed or valvetrain. With a gun to my head I'd guess crank speed. That plus load dependent MIGHT just be detonation or something in the reciprocating assembly

[Sprun24]

Bummer, really thought this was going to be something minor for a bit there. I don't get above 3000 rpms in the clip if that helps at all. How would I go about narrowing down what the problem is at this point? Even if its 'just' detonation I don't want to let it keep doing it. Could it have been detonating from the oil in the intake manifold?

Not really the best if its something serious but I've put about 2500 miles on the car since I got it and the noise hasn't changed at all.

[ross1]

Bummer, really thought this was going to be something minor for a bit there. I don't get above 3000 rpms in the clip if that helps at all. How would I go about narrowing down what the problem is at this point? Even if its 'just' detonation I don't want to let it keep doing it. Could it have been detonating from the oil in the intake manifold?

Not really the best if its something serious but I've put about 2500 miles on the car since I got it and the noise hasn't changed at all.

I'm guessing with little to go on. That it hasn't gotten worse in 2500 miles tells me its probably not bearings. Piston slap?? Dunno. EDIT Jim makes a valid point below, that should diminish when warm. Detonation?? Dunno.
Somebody needs to have hands/ears on the car to diagnose this. It isn't something I'd further ignore.
Detonation SHOULD be controlled by the DME, if not chances are good the detonation sensor(s) have failed. Prolonged detonation will damage the engine.
Good luck

[JimLev]

Maybe my iPad isn’t the best to hear the ticking? I did hear a few that sounded like stones hitting the car as you went around the corner.
Piston slap generally isn’t a problem with these engines. It’s usually worse on a cold engine and gone when hot unless the bores/pistons are really worn. A leak down test may tell you something. The pipe under the intake manifold (drivers side) from the CCV to the front of the engine that connects to the oil separator has a rubber boot that deteriorates over time, have you put an eyeball on it?
All that oil got into the intake somehow.
If you had detonation issues you should have a code for it, maybe not a CEL.

[Ed CT]

Only skimmed thru this thread and may have missed if someone already mentioned it, but, Have you checked for LOOSE SPARK PLUGS? Some plug brand threads have a tendency to loosen up in the head causing a noticeable ticking noise. I had this for about a month before finding that a loosened plug was the culprit. Better to rule out the easy stuff before fretting over the hard stuff.

[Sprun24]

I'm not normally one to ignore problems, but I had read so many thread about people with ticking noises that ended up just being 'normal'. Pretty sure I've overthought this quite a bit, should have started on the easy stuff earlier. I'm going to take the plugs out and see if they are loose/covered in oil/fowled. I'm also going to try taking the throttle body off again and do a proper job cleaning up the oil in the intake.

The car did misfire and throw a cel for it under a specific but repeatable scenario, so I think the knock sensors are working. I'll check the codes again later just to be sure. It has not shown a cel since I cleared it last.

[ross1]

Only skimmed thru this thread and may have missed if someone already mentioned it, but, Have you checked for LOOSE SPARK PLUGS? Some plug brand threads have a tendency to loosen up in the head causing a noticeable ticking noise. I had this for about a month before finding that a loosened plug was the culprit. Better to rule out the easy stuff before fretting over the hard stuff.

YES!
I've witnessed this on Mrs. Ross' m52tu. It sounded eerily like a rod knock.
I do not remember ever hearing it while driving though. Perhaps depends on looseness of the plug. CERTAINLY easy enough to check.
Boy, wouldn't that be a nice fix?

[Ed CT]

YES!
I've witnessed this on Mrs. Ross' m52tu. It sounded eerily like a rod knock.
I do not remember ever hearing it while driving though. Perhaps depends on looseness of the plug. CERTAINLY easy enough to check.
Boy, wouldn't that be a nice fix?

Rod knock - exactly what came to mind when I noticed this on my E39. (I had a '73 Mustang back in the early '80's with worn main bearings, so, I had a disturbing flashback.) I also started smelling exhaust gas and when checking the plugs - bingo. IIRC, they were Bosch plugs.

[Sprun24]

Thanks for the help with everything today. I've got a decent list of things to try when I get home, I will report back with whatever I find. Got my fingers crossed its a spark plug, this is my only car right now. Thinking about it a bit more I'm sure this noise developed during my month of ownership, I wouldn't have bought a car with something like this.

[Sprun24]

Alright, I took all the plugs out, 7 of them look perfect and one is completely fowled. There was an expected amount of oil in the plug holes. Whatever barbarian put the left valve cover together last time managed to pull the threads out of almost every stud hole. This is not good, but isn't the cause of the ticking.

It turns out you can hear it when the car is idling, but only if you stick your head under the car. The real damning evidence was found in the oil filter, I leafed through it and found a small piece of brown plastic that looks similar to the plastic used on the timing chain guides(previous owner included an extra set lol). This oil change has 2000 miles on it. I looked through the oil filter that was in it when I bought it and found no such pieces. I cut it apart so I'm confident I didn't miss any at the time. There was no metal flakes, so I think my rod bearings are safe.

PO told me the timing chain guides were done 60k ago. He also said they're an every 60k maintenance item, but everyone else seems to get 100-150k out of them. This car has somewhat low miles for being 20 years old, I guess its possible they where done 15 years ago and it sat for a while so the plastic got brittle. The guides he gave me don't have any branding on them, maybe its a 60k mile maintenance item if you only buy crappy parts.

Obviously I don't want to, but I'm sure I can do this job. It seems time consuming but easy. I'm a little surprised that changing the tensioner didn't do anything, but I guess if they've already started to go its to late at that point.

Is there a preferred kit as far as parts go? Is it better to buy parts individually? I'm not going to put on the no name guides he gave me, I don't want to do this project again next year.

[SW530]

PO told me the timing chain guides were done 60k ago.

I was told the same thing but with no specific mileage on my 2003 540i/6. I really didn't want to tear down the engine if I didn't have to, so after a careful steam and green session I was able to see the TC cover and upper oil pan gaskets were not OEM so they'd be off, and then I ran a .17 48" long bore scope down to the TC area from the oil fill cap. I learned my 178k engine was exceptionally clean and the TC sprokets and chains were all the new silver/nickel color while the other gears had that bronze/gold tint that comes with age and a long exposure to oil.. it a film. I wasn't able to see the guides but I'm willing to gamble that if someone changes the sprockets and chains then they did the guides. What I didn't look at and will do another sneak and peek this spring when I pull it from storage is the VANOS. I suspect they weren't done. After about 10k miles of ownership I noticed a brief rattle on startup that disappears within seconds. I drained the oil and refilled with new 5-40w Mobile One Synthetic and added a half bottle of Lucas Oil Treatment and haven't heard the rattle since. When I run the scope up there if they look new of exceptionally clean I'll leave it alone. If not, I need to look into what's involved and get with Jim to get some rebuilt VANOS.

I always make a list over the winter of maintenance I want to do.. and I order the parts and collect what I need. This spring the front seats are getting new foam on the seat bottoms, TC Tensioner, Windshield Washer complete hose change (the main hose loom's are finally available if anyone is looking), M5 subs, A, B, and C pillars recovered with Alcantara, transmission and rear diff oil change, R&R&repaint (Cerekote) VC's and gaskets, so far I have all the parts sitting on the bench ready for this stuff.. but I might end up adding rebuilt VANOS and new brake pads, rotors, flex hoses, and caliper rebuilt gets. The brakes still have 35-40% left so waffling on that task..

Anyway, consider scoping your TC area to confirm if the work was done.

[Sprun24]

At this point I suspect it doesn't matter if the work was already done. If there's pieces in the oil filter its definitely time for me to do it again.

[JimLev]

You need to drop the lower oil pan to make sure there aren’t pieces of plastic stuck in the screen on the oil pickup.
Guides should last anywhere from over 100K to maybe 200K+ miles, depends on driving habits and frequency of oil changes. They are not a 60K maintenance item.
You can use heilcoils to fix the threads however make sure you don’t block the hole on the cam caps that provide oil to the cam.

[Sprun24]

You need to drop the lower oil pan to make sure there aren’t pieces of plastic stuck in the screen on the oil pickup.
Guides should last anywhere from over 100K to maybe 200K+ miles, depends on driving habits and frequency of oil changes. They are not a 60K maintenance item.
You can use heilcoils to fix the threads however make sure you don’t block the hole on the cam caps that provide oil to the cam.

Are you suggesting I drop the oil pan to just clean the pickup or for more diagnosis? The noise changing with throttle application is strange but everything else is consistent with the common timing chain failures.

I had planned on changing the oil every 3500 and the tensioner every 50k, which I'd think should have me pretty well in the clear for the guides not going out again. I don't drive this car hard but it will see a lot of miles and I intend to be its last owner.