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Thread: M52B30 stroker using single mass flywheel with a vibration

  1. #1
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    M52B30 stroker using single mass flywheel with a vibration

    I've been running S52 cams in my 328i with a well worn OEM dual mass flywheel for a year now without issues.

    Just finished this build and I have a vibration issue.

    Symptoms happen when:
    1. Engine is at operating temperature only;
    2. RPM between 1,500 and 2,500;
    3. At idle or under moderate to hard accelerations in 3rd, or 4th gear.

    The vibration seems to come from the Vanos but I'm not convinced it originates at the Vanos. Could be the symptom of a vibration from somewhere else...

    I'm using a JB Racing light flywheel (15 lbs) with a sprung disk. The Vanos was rebuilt by me years ago. The damper is OEM and in good condition.
    The valve springs are color coded purple and green (I believe those are M52). The primary and secondary chain tensioners are the same as before.

    The flywheel was not creating any vibrations when I tried it in the E36 M3.
    Could the combination of light flywheel / M52 valve springs / M54 pistons create this vibration ?
    I read dozens of threads before I pulled the trigger and do not remember vibration issues for a fairly common mod.

    I did not get the flywheel-crankshaft-damper combination balanced before the installation.

    Any help is appreciated.
    Last edited by Franky goes; 12-10-2022 at 09:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    Since it didn't vibrate with the DMF, but does with the SMF, any other approach besides installing a DMF or living with the vibration is a waste of time. You won't find, and even if you did, you couldn't do something about the source of the vibration. That's why DMF were invented.

  3. #3
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    Any chance it’s the transmission mounts? That is about the right rpm range for stiff mounts to be noticeable. I ran an AA LTW flywheel years ago — 12 lbs but 13 with bolts and it was smooth on my S52 — and I used an unsprung disk. I don’t think your 15 lb flywheel is too light. It is possible it is not perfectly balanced. Many, many people have run LtW flywheels and not had any vibration.

    I doubt it is the valve springs or vanos or M54 pistons or anything other than flywheel/clutch balance or trans mounts.

  4. #4
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    I didn't balance the 10 lb JB flywheel/pp in my otherwise stock S52. I used a stock PP and sprung disc (E34 M5 as I remember). Very frustrating to have that wonderful throttle response, but with an annoying vibration. I tried all the fixes I could think of, including engine and trans mounts. Finally, I took it apart again, just to balance flywheel/pp (not the crankshaft damper). The balancer said it wasn't out of balance very much, (I forget the numbers), but it worked. Now it's smooth.
    Last edited by zellamay; 12-10-2022 at 09:09 PM.

  5. #5
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    If you needed to do that, the flywheel was unbalanced out of the box?
    Last edited by Floxer; 12-10-2022 at 09:34 PM.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for sharing your experiences.
    I'm using a sprung hub disk' like Zellamay. I updated the first post.
    I'm also using stiff transmission mounts. That should not make a difference when the engine is revved in neutral but something weird is definitely happening...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floxer View Post
    If you needed to do that, the flywheel was unbalanced out of the box?
    Apparently it was, although I didn't balance the PP separately, so don't know about it. All I know is that the flywheel/PP assembly was slightly out of balance. My vibration wasn't huge, but enough to bother me. It took me months to decide to take it apart again.

  8. #8
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    Clutches are always balanced. Just like flywheels. At least that's what I expect, since they rotate. But apparently they sell flywheels now that aren't. Balancing is an essential step in flywheel production. What production step will they make the customer do next. Will they send steel plates and tell the customer to make their flywheel themself.
    The year after you'll order a flywheel and they send a map to the next iron mine.
    Last edited by samy01; 12-11-2022 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #9
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    The flywheel is balanced. It was fine when I tried it on my M3.
    Clutch is Sachts. I would be surprised it's not balanced.

    I have a damper for the 330 around somewhere. I will see if that helps. I can also borrow the damper from the M3 to test.

    That said it's possible that the combination does funky stuff. Vibrations are complicated dynamics.
    I suspect there are two parameters at play and it is not just one very obvious thing.
    I'm leaving it with a competent BMW shop this Tuesday so they can have it on the lift and use two set of ears... and their experience and their stethoscope.
    Last edited by Franky goes; 12-11-2022 at 10:24 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky goes View Post
    I'm also using stiff transmission mounts. That should not make a difference when the engine is revved in neutral
    Why would stiff trans mounts not matter in neutral, but stiff engine mounts do? What stiffness are you using? Trans mounts over 80A typically cause vibration in the 1500-2500 rpm range. An 80A poly mount that is overtightened can also cause vibration—the poly mounts have low torque specs for the nuts. Any bolt through trans mount typically causes vibration, as opposed to the offset studs like stock mounts.

  11. #11
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    Stiff trans mounts and a lighter flywheel are always going to cause increased NVH. Mine sounds like a diesel dumptruck when the AC compressor engages.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  12. #12
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    Update. From your comments and what I could find on the forum the vibration I have is either the wrong trans mounts or a broken PP strap. The PP is new and the straps are fine. So I had the trans mounts replaced. I had UUC blues with tired engine mounts. The shop replaced both as well as both belt tensioners.

    The vibration is not as bad on idle but identical under power. According to the shop the Vanos is the problem.
    My theory is that any vibration in the drive line will end up at the Vanos because it is the only place in the system that has any sort of loose. The other is the sprung hub clutch disk and that is also new and as stiff as it will ever be.

    I'm in the process of taring the valvetrain apart to double check the springs.
    The springs are cylindrical coded with 3 colors Green/White/Yellow:
    Attachment 711383Attachment 711384

    I have no idea what springs those are... If someone knows please let me know. I did not find anything on the web.
    They are not binding but the engine is difficult to turn even without sparkplugs... So they are coming out and being replaced by known good M3 springs.
    While I'm in there I'm also changing the Vanos. The one in there is thigh and good but the gear might be worn so I'm changing it anyway.

    Will be done this week and report.
    Last edited by Franky goes; 12-17-2022 at 06:34 PM.

  13. #13
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    Interesting. I have read of vanos rattling but never causing vibrations you can feel. I have rebuilt a couple and converted an old style one to include the additional spring disk, but that was preventative maintenance so I don’t know what happens if one gets really bad. I’d suspect clutch and/or flywheel balance first but looking forward to results from your valve spring and vanos work.

  14. #14
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    I first changed the valve springs and the Vanos, and the secondary tensioner because I had the parts so it was just time.
    I did not have high expectation and it indeed did not change much. The overall noise of the entire valve train is reduced. Probably because the M3 springs are marginally softer.
    The vibration in the Vanos between 1500 and 2000 RPM is stile there once the engine warms up.

    I'm in the process of installing the ATI harmonic balancer. Hopefully that works.
    This entire project was fun because I had all the parts. Now I'm starting to spend money. The fun factor is 'evaporating'.
    $1000 for the ATI. Purchased it during their Christmas sale but they refused to apply their own rebate because they were running low on inventory...
    It just stings a little more. Will update once the balancer is installed.

  15. #15
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    The fancy damper might hide the imbalance of the flywheel/clutch. I use the VAC ATI damper on S52 and did not notice any difference after installing it, but did not have a problem I was trying to fix. My problem is different — a GS6-53 with a custom lightweight one piece flywheel at one end and a 1 piece driveshaft with a u joint instead of flex disk at the other end. It is really noisy.

  16. #16
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    Nothing that happens in the valvetrain can cause vibration in the rest of the drivetrain (engine, trans, driveshaft) because it would have to be transmitted through the chain, which is dampened by the tensioner, so that's unlikely.

    It's your flywheel, no matter how much money you throw at it.

  17. #17
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    Agreed Floxer. This is why I made changes in the valvetrain first. And also because it was at no cost.
    Does your logic apply going the other way ? Would the chain/tensioner isolate the vibration from the single mass flywheel from the Vanos.

    Before I started installing the ATI I warmed up the engine to normal operating temperature, turned it off and removed the 2 serpentine belts and ran the engine for 30 seconds. No change so I can eliminate the water and power steering pump as well as the generator ?

    What puzzles me is the conditions under which it happens.
    When the oil is cold the oil pressure is high. Same at high RPM.
    The Vanos is quiet.

    At 15000 RPM the oil pressure is low. Even under load.
    The Vanos is noisy, but only in 2nd or 3rd.

    The correlation with oil pressure does not apply perfectly since there is no Vanos vibration at idle or at low RPM in 1st, fourth or fifth...
    One thing that changes with oil pressure is the pressure applied to the primary timing chain tensioner.
    Last edited by Franky goes; 12-24-2022 at 04:13 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky goes View Post
    Does your logic apply going the other way ? Would the chain/tensioner isolate the vibration from the single mass flywheel from the Vanos.
    I think yes. But why is that relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franky goes View Post
    Before I started installing the ATI
    So the ATI is installed now? Did it help reducing the vibrations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franky goes View Post
    What puzzles me is the conditions under which it happens.
    When the oil is cold the oil pressure is high. Same at high RPM.
    The Vanos is quiet.

    At 15000 RPM the oil pressure is low. Even under load.
    The Vanos is noisy, but only in 2nd or 3rd.

    The correlation with oil pressure does not apply perfectly since there is no Vanos vibration at idle or at low RPM in 1st, fourth or fifth...
    One thing that changes with oil pressure is the pressure applied to the primary timing chain tensioner.
    I see you still think the Vanos and valvetrain are causing the problems. Just to understand this: You had no vibrations, then installed single mass flywheel, then vibrations appeared?

    So you know it's the SMF, but you think it's just that the DMF was hiding a vibration, which the SMF can't, and if you'd find that actual vibration itself, your car would be vibration free no matter what flywheel is installed?
    Last edited by Floxer; 12-24-2022 at 08:11 PM.

  19. #19
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    We need to get Franky to road trip down from Montreal to NH.

  20. #20
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    Just drove the car around for 30 minutes with the ATI harmonic balancer and the vibration is pretty much the same. A little harder to trigger but there all the same.

    Floxer,
    I did many changes at once. Made it an M52B30, meaning I transposed a lot of parts from an M54 3 liter block (Purchased used) including timing chain and lower sprocket. The crankshaft came from my other S52 engine and is good for sure.
    The head came from a used E36 325 (purchased used because my head was cracked). I replaced the valve springs with my set of S52.

    That was a lot of changes done at the same time as the SM flywheel. This is why I've been working to isolate the source. Next step is to replace the primary tensioner with a new one for the E46 330. Probably not going to solve anything but it's cheap...

    Going back to dual mass is the last step.
    Last edited by Franky goes; 12-26-2022 at 04:24 PM.

  21. #21
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    I’d take the flywheel and clutch to a good machine shop for balancing. The ATI balancer was an unnecessary waste of money, unless you needed a balancer and were about to buy a new BMW one for close to the same money or you planned to rev past 7200 rpm with S52 stroke and bore.

    The trans mounts were my suspect but you said you changed them to back to stock and while that helped, the vibration did not go away. I assume the shift selector rod is oriented correctly and not touching the flex disk at times. Accessory pulleys and tensioners are all good — something loose bolted to the motor might cause vibration. Lower alternator bolt, etc.

  22. #22
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    One poster said before that his SMF wasn't balanced right out of the box. I think if that happens, you should make sure it is, before you do anything else.

  23. #23
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    That was me, but not just me. Somewhere in my searches I ran across one of the pundits here saying that he always balances the FW/PP together before assembly. Wish I'd have read that before doing mine.

  24. #24
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    Update. I was leaning towards the hydraulic primary tensioner so looking on RealOEM and ECS it appears the M52 is the same as M54. It is a two part cylinder with a spring inside. This is what I was running but it is very old and bangned up. The two parts do not fit tightly anymore. I tried without the spring and it was very noisy for half a second but OK at Idle.

    So the only change possible was an S52 tensioner. ECS advertises it as an upgrade to the M52. I though this was pushing it.
    Before I bought a new one I dug out my used one and tried it. I'll be damn. The S52 might be an upgrade after all. The Vanos is now quiet when revved in neutral. Quiet...

    There is still the sound of metal shaking when under load past 1500 RPM. As I initially thought there was more than one thing happening. One left to figure out.

    Since it is very faint in neutral I will rent a garage space with a lift and have someone in the car rev it while holding the brakes while I'm under the car to listen to it. From the sound it could be an accessory that I did not tighten correctly. I'll be looking for that. It also sound like it's pinging but I have no codes.

    It could be that the SM flywheel needs balancing with the PP but it was fine when I tried it in another car.

  25. #25
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    If the flywheel and clutch were fine in another car, they should still be fine.

    Failed primary tensioner is possible, but my S52 one is fine at 23 years. I did break a guide one when reassembling a motor but that was my fault. Maybe you were right the mouse was vanos or chain related.

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