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I wouldn't say it's that cut and dry - stand alone still gives you plenty more options over the stock ECU even with the additional code. Also I really don't see an issue with env. if the standalone is correctly configured and tuned. It will be able to compensate on variations just as the stock ECU can.Originally Posted by mrf
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If the standalone is correctly configured... Exactly. If. And unless your tuner tunes for sanctioned motorsports or an OEM, chances are they not tuning for all possible environmental conditions.
Stock ECU is already configured correctly for various environmental conditions. Just adjust some basic hardware characterization tables like MAF/SD, Fuel, Timing and not worry about the rest.
Anyway, agree to disagree.
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Isn't that the point of 'tuning' though?
While I understand the OEM ECU will have an easier time initially due to the solid data provided by the OE calibrators the majority of the tables in OE ECU's are dedicated to emissions, faults/diagnostics, making the car drive smoothly, etc. It's certainly possible to have a standalone ECU based car drive like an OEM ECU car - I've done it plenty of times and I'm not an OEM or a 'sanctioned motorsports' tuner and I don't see what that has to do with anything to be honest. It does take time, a level of detail and of course familiarity with a platform helps.
There are plenty of people with bad experiences on stock ECU's across many platforms - regardless if it's a hardware issue, tuning issue, installation issues or otherwise. There is plenty things a stock ECU does right, but there are plenty of things a standalone can do better especially when the modifications start to get extreme.
Is there anything specific about the stock ECU env. variables vs. what you think the Standalone isn't taking into account (or even say couldn't take into account)? Say SD vs SD to keep things simple. Also I'm not familiar with the SD implementation in the routine you're added, is there a MAP/VE table that has to be tuned (just curious)?Stock ECU is already configured correctly for various environmental conditions. Just adjust some basic hardware characterization tables like MAF/SD, Fuel, Timing and not worry about the rest.
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There is a ton of misinformation in this thread, a lot of misunderstood concepts used to sway ones thoughts or opinions. The fact of the matter is the stock ecu and a proper modern standalone system are two entirely separate things, intended for seperate uses. The stock ecu is good for someone that is not familiar with wiring and wanting to add sensors. This type of person doesn't care to see logs or make sure everything is working correctly, they load a flash file and go, or have a oem ecu tuner take care of it. it in no way can adjust or account for any of the variables we often see in practice. A standalone ecu is meant for someone that wants a much greater level of control. Someone that wants to protect their investment. I do not use ecus that require me to be married to the project. Meaning once they are calibrated I don't need to see the car or customer again, especially for changes in weather! Not sure what standalone ecu needs to have different tunes for different weather patterns, I imagine you have the word standalone confused with carburetor.
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LMAO!
https://youtu.be/cCCSOURq4lo
That's my stock ECU running Full-Time Closed Loop off a WBO2 with a PnP add-on harness. Even has MAP input integrated for later testing with Speed Density.
Here's the schematic if you want to make your own...
PnP add-on harness.jpgauxilary input harness.jpg
But yes, tell me more about how I don't want to add wiring, sensors, or uhhh datalog... LMFAO!
Last edited by mrf; 12-13-2022 at 05:38 PM.
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Ugh, your entire point in the last two posts seems to revolve around what standalones are CAPABLE of. Even though in practice most tuners do not and cannot tune for all the environmental conditions the vehicle will possibly see.
Anecdote 1 : I have a buddy with a 1000HP 2JZ that overboosts when cold because it was tuned on a 100F day.
Anecdote 2 : This very thread where someone needs to flash different maps depending on what temperature it is outside.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...5#post30849825
My entire point is that while the underlying logic is there, most standalone are not calibrated as well as the stock ECU for varying environmental conditions. It is NOT the fault of the standalone, rather the fault of typical tuners who tune standalones.
Regarding my SD implementation, the easiest way to explain it is: That is how Cobb adds SD to Subarus. There is an RPM/MAP table that spits out Load. This is the table you tune for SD. The ECU uses this Calculated Load value to look up Fuel / Timing, etc.
Last edited by mrf; 12-13-2022 at 05:18 PM.
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Keep in mind this. When I say you have a 30/40/50...etc tune, it's for small adjustments. My 70 degree tune will start the car and get you driving to work in a 40 degree environment. The issues in environmental changes are small like low rpm bucking when cold (most of the time just needs more fuel) or a hesitation during a in boost shift from 3rd to 4th gear. Might need to pull fuel to get it smooth during the transition.
Small things that a car person would notice but my kids or wife would be like "the car is really fast"...
TEC-3R, T4 GT40, WISECO, EAGLE, SUPERTECH, O-RING'D "FRANKENSTEIN" STROKER.
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Ugh - and your posts are all about what the stock ECU is CAPABLE of. So what? Isn't that why we're here, to have a discussion?
So in other words you have no idea what env. variables YOU are stating the standalone cannot compensate for. Got it. And if you do want to share I would love to know what extraordinary variables tuners should be adjusting.Even though in practice most tuners do not and cannot tune for all the environmental conditions the vehicle will possibly see.
So you have friend that seems to have a poorly tuned/configured boost controller. Since we're on this subject, explain how this can't happen with YOUR boost control code added to the factory ECU - considering the factory ECU had no idea about what boost is from the factory how are you going to make this favorable to your argument? Will you be telling me that you created boost control code added to the ECU that you will only need to enter a target with no additional information to the ECU and your boost code will get the right boost every time? If so that sounds magical and some OEM's would surely be knocking on your door like Bosch.Anecdote 1 : I have a buddy with a 1000HP 2JZ that overboosts when cold because it was tuned on a 100F day.
And as I pointed out in this very thread that it is not normal. He could be having anything from tuning to hardware to who knows what issues - so this argument/point is entirely moot. That person is choosing to deal with that type of behavior incorrectly, why I don't know but that's their choice. They're also using a very old/dated/bad standalone ECU that is extremely hard for someone to tune correctly.Anecdote 2 : This very thread where someone needs to flash different maps depending on what temperature it is outside.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...5#post30849825
You keep saying that, yet you have yet to provide any actual and FACTUAL data where this is the case and what is the stock ECU is accounting for that a standalone isn't? I even asked you to compare SD to SD routine and you can't even do that.My entire point is that while the underlying logic is there, most standalone are not calibrated as well as the stock ECU for varying environmental conditions.
My argument that it's absolutely not difficult what so ever to get consistent results from a standalone ECU, I've done it many times over, it's not magic and with a proper ECU, parts and data the air density, temperature modeling, etc. in the fuel model will make this work correctly just as it does in the factory modeled tables of a stock ECU. From there just like the stock ECU it will lean on the lambda controller for long/short trims to keep everything in check.
Cool, good to know thank you.Regarding my SD implementation, the easiest way to explain it is: That is how Cobb adds SD to Subarus. There is an RPM/MAP table that spits out Load. This is the table you tune for SD. The ECU uses this Calculated Load value to look up Fuel / Timing, etc.
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Don't know that I can commit all of this to memory, but I'm def learning and appreciate the discussion!
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At the end of the day - there are plenty of reasons to consider either option. With someone like mrf who seems to be one of the (or the one?) group of people expanding stock ECU capabilities by adding additional code/routines is very, very cool. Things like this are what the community needs IMO - more choice is always better.
Very few people are able to do this or even have the level of understanding of what actually the OE ECU is doing at any given time - IMO most tuners don't know well enough about the OE ECU routines to make the correct changes, they're highly complex and most of the time there are numerous ways to skin a cat in OE ECU tuning, not every way is right and issues will crop up time to time if done incorrectly due to fudging tables to force it to do what you want instead of actually addressing the correct tables (which might no be possible with stock code due to limitations in the ECU itself and so on).
On the extreme end of things there is a lot that a modern day aftermarket ECU can handle that the stock ECU never will - far more possibilities and strategies are available which I doubt the stock ECU would ever have room for to be added and/or alone through the lack of I/O. However either way you need a competent tuner that understands the platform they're working with, be it OEM ECU or aftermarket to get the bests results. There are plenty of people who can attest (or just search here or any other platform that uses stock ECU tuning) that their cars have issues on a tuned stock ECU.
The boost overshoot issue/anecdote/example above is probably one of the worst examples he could have used IMO since there are factory ECU's for turbo engines that will have this and other control issues if you radically change things and not tune for them correctly. It literally happens all the time and that's with an insanely complex boost control method that involves engine torque modeling, air flow paths, PIDs and so on. It's really not a standalone issue and no amount of OE data that mrf is leaning on above would be able to avoid that issue.
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Cool your one of the few people out there that has done this. How is the fault management? What does it do to save the engine when the fuel pump fails. How about melts the reference line to the bottom of the gate? How is the oil pressure protection? Coolant pressure protection? How does it blend fuel and timing maps as well as limit power based on ethanol content? Can you target dome pressure for boost control? How is the power management? How's the drive by wire control? Launch control? Rolling anti lag with the ecu capturing rpm, no need to enter a window to operate?
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Thanks for asking!That's pretty much what I thought.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
https://sites.google.com/site/openms...-code---ms41-3
Read this if you want to know about the extra features that MS41.3 provides in addition to the factory ECU code.
If you need something beyond that, a full standalone is in your cards... LMFAO
And please do ask more questions about MS41.3! It allows me to speak about its features for everyone to read! Thanks for your hostility-induced free publicity!
Last edited by mrf; 01-01-2023 at 04:41 PM.
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BMW E36 M3 Expert
Now serving anecdotal questions with attitude!
Are you really arrogant enough to think anyone would indulge you asking about DBW control on a car with a physical throttle cable?
Last edited by jvit27; 01-04-2023 at 12:05 AM.
'99 Estoril Blue + Dove Grey ///M3 coupe
'04 Jet Black + Cinnamon ///M3 coupe
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Now serving anecdotal questions with attitude!
Are you really arrogant enough to think anyone would indulge you asking about DBW control on a car with a physical throttle cable?
Umm, have you been in a coma for 10+ years? Never though I would see the words arrogant and DBW in the same sentence. WTF are you even going on about? Pretty much all the efi systems these days have DBW control. It is nothing special these days. Furthermore, every single car that has gotten switched to DBW, started with DBW-cable.
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BMW E36 M3 Expert
mrf posted his setup and tried to help anyone who wanted to make their own, which you somehow felt was an attack and cause to assert how much more you know more about something he doesn't have, so congrats on not understanding the assignment because all you've done is answer questions no one asked. If it is "nothing special" then I can't see why you'd even bother to bring it up, unless..... [fill in the blank]
Umm, have you been in a coma for 10+ years? Never though I would see the words arrogant and DBW in the same sentence. WTF are you even going on about? Pretty much all the efi systems these days have DBW control. It is nothing special these days. Furthermore, every single car that has gotten switched to DBW, started with DBW-cable.
Those of us not running MS41's will continue to not switch to DBW.
Last edited by jvit27; 01-09-2023 at 05:27 PM.
'99 Estoril Blue + Dove Grey ///M3 coupe
'04 Jet Black + Cinnamon ///M3 coupe
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I have been turbo for only 14 years, but so far I have not needed a standalone. Plus it would not have passed OBD2 plug in inspection. Integrating the boost control, meth injection, traction control, having full time WBO2, and having failsafes would be nice, but separate controls have worked for me. I might use a stand-alone on a 1975 2002 that I am restoring, but have to figure out whether I am turbocharging the M10 or swapping in a different motor (maybe not BMW) first.
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First off, clearly you either didn't read, or, missed the entire point of this entire thread! After reading the OP's post, and reading the comments, I wanted to stop some of the misinformation, or at least correct what I could, based on my experience. Second off, words, on an internet forum, no matter how you arrange them, are no such thing as an attack, nor do I feel attacked. I 100%, posted in line with what the OP asked, I understood the assignment very well actually, and this happens to be something I have a great deal of experience in. I added some pros and cons to this thread, another perspective if you will, what is it that you have added, certainly nothing addressed in questions #1 or #2, if I may add. However, it's clearly easy to see who feels attacked here, it certainly isn't myself, and it comes off a little strange in my opinion.
The fact of the matter is, there are often posts here, in this sub-category, that are misleading. Myself as well as some other long standing members, who frequent in this category, who also have a great deal of experience, both with the stock computer, as well as aftermarket, like to add to the discussion, while ensuring factual information is shared. This can be dangerous as the information can be misleading to folks who may search the internet or this forum, and in fact, for many years to come; it just doesn't go away. The fact remains, even with updated code in the factory computer, it can not do half of what a modern standalone ecm can, and doesn't eliminate the need or place for an aftermarket ecm. Again, it is, in no way, a replacement (factory computer with custom code) for a standalone ecm. This is coming from someone that has both and for well over a decade, as well as a great deal of experience with both. Both options have their place, what you choose is your business. No one is forcing anything on anyone. I wanted to clear up some of the op's questions, address some of the other things said in this thread, and keep it factual, based on my experience.
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Colby,
First, I would like to start with that in no means I have more knowledge on this subject as you, Phonsy, mrf or Notorious. In the 5 past years I have been boosting and tuning (mainly stock ecu's) m5x platforms for fun I have on multiple occasions found the answers to my problems in the
discussions you guys had on here.
Thing is, with your first post- "The stock ecu is good for someone that is not familiar with wiring and wanting to add sensors. This type of person doesn't care to see logs or make sure everything is working correctly, they load a flash file and go, or have a oem ecu tuner take care of it."
You already start with a misinterpretation of what Stock ECU tuning can bring. the ability to log, reading (factory programmed) faultcodes, adding sensors is all possible (and more due to the work of mrf, which he understandibly explains in his post).
after that, it isn't as if you are completely wrong, but the way you put your words are a bit like you are holding a discussion battle in this discussion (not something I am used to coming from you in general).
Especially with the: "That's pretty much what I thought".. what's that about? had your panties in a twist
It doesn't really matter, can happen, and it's probably not your goal. but I understand why jvit is calling you out on being a bit of a douche.
Lets all be friends with the same interest! this is a very interesting technical topic.... as you say(Colby) keep it factual and appreciate each others work/knowledge.
Last edited by et89; 01-12-2023 at 03:14 PM.
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Let me be more clear then, I personally know, have spoken to, and have seen 100's of stock ecu tuned cars over the years. I organized one of the Nick G dyno tuning sessions at Maximum PSI what in 2012? We had 5-7 cars those two days alone. How it works with Nick is you deal with Mike R or John @ CES. The car has to go through their shop and have their stamp of approval before Nick will get involved. Then he sets up a date with them and tunes the car. My '99 M3, look up Colbys 99 m3 on youtube, has been turbo charged, making above 700whp for over a decade. I have never seen one single log, ever. All of the other guys haven't either. The stock ecu is tuned via an aftermarket maf and scaled for x amount of airflow. Turn the boost up or down to the limit of the maf, car runs flawlessly.Colby,
First, I would like to start with that in no means I have more knowledge on this subject as you, Phonsy, mrf or Notorious. In the 5 past years I have been boosting and tuning (mainly stock ecu's) m5x platforms for fun I have on multiple occasions found the answers to my problems in the
discussions you guys had on here.
Thing is, with your first post- "The stock ecu is good for someone that is not familiar with wiring and wanting to add sensors. This type of person doesn't care to see logs or make sure everything is working correctly, they load a flash file and go, or have a oem ecu tuner take care of it."
You already start with a misinterpretation of what Stock ECU tuning can bring. the ability to log, reading (factory programmed) faultcodes, adding sensors is all possible (and more due to the work of mrf, which he understandibly explains in his post).
after that, it isn't as if you are completely wrong, but the way you put your words are a bit like you are holding a discussion battle in this discussion (not something I am used to coming from you in general).
Especially with the: "That's pretty much what I thought".. what's that about? had your panties in a twist
It doesn't really matter, can happen, and it's probably not your goal. but I understand why jvit is calling you out on being a bit of a douche.
Lets all be friends with the same interest! this is a very interesting technical topic.... as you say(Colby) keep it factual and appreciate each others work/knowledge.
Go to Jordan at RK, Mike at TRM, Active, Technika Motorsports, RPD22, etc. All of them do the same thing, you get a file sent to you for your setup. I know dozens of cars that have never been on a dyno and the owner has never seen a log. They don't know what the fuel pressure is doing during a pull, the don't know with the IDC or IAT is during a pull, peak torque timing or timing at max rpm, again they have no clue. The simple fact is 1. they don't need to. It's a tried and true thing that at thins point has been done thousands and thousands of times across all the tuners. The majority of members on here have never seen any data or care to, it was just never part of the gig with the stock DME tuning. It is just like I said, set it and forget it. My car has been through several turbo setups and now a new motor and the original Nick G tune from over 10 years ago, it's never been tuned. I have a boost gauge w/controller and a air fuel ratio gauge, that's all I've ever seen. My point is and remains that any of the guys that ever wanted more than that, they went standalone. I have my own standalone package I made for my 1230whp E36 M3, I wanted far more than the stock DME could do. The automatic fuel pressure compensation is something you can't beat and these days I won't live without, plus all of the other functions that your get with the standalone route, which are nothing special in the standalone world. I have been around these parts for a long long time and when there are thousands of setups that have been done just as I describe, I am safe in saying that it is the norm for the stock ecu crowd. These hundreds and thousands of people I am talking about know nothing about some random guy on the internet claiming he has his own code.
You guys start calling names over my explanation, please. Clearly you haven't been here the last 15 + years like myself and all of the other members that have been doing this, some of which have commented on this thread. I just stick to the facts, the fact is the OP started this thread under some misinformation about standalones. Then someone else tried to run with that statement and tried to make the stock ecu sound better than a standalone. RK Tunes alone has probably sold well over 10,000 turbo stock ecu calibrations. They are all told to load a file and bring the car in for revisions if necessary. There are literally facebook pages dedicated because when there are issues, they have no data to help them sort it out. It's just a fact. I'm not mad about it, I'm not happy about it, it's just always been that way. One person claiming that they can make the stock computer better with their code DOES NOT change the experience of dare I say 20,000 plus Turbocharged OBD1 and 2 stock DME tuned cars, it just doesn't. Not one of those cars has a single sensor added into the stock ecu. Oh, and at the few times we've heard it was possible, the results were horrible (ala flex fuel on the factory dme as used to be sold by one company but it never worked). Now, if that makes me a "douche", as stated, I'm going to have to assume, that makes you children. Why do I think that, let me continue.
First, maybe some of the stock DME Tuners will drop their numbers of tunes sold, I bet you I am far off, and the numbers are quite a bit higher than I quoted. You see, the very last car that was tuned in my shop on the OEM DME was an E46 M3. I was sent a cable from the company, I was sent instructions, I was told to do a full read of the DME and send them that file. Mind you that file is in hex code and I can not read it, there is no valuable information in it that you can see period, and I wire and tune cars for a living. That hex file is then opened up by the DME tuner who then sends back a new file for me to flash. I do some rips on the dyno. The process is then repeated again and again until the desired result is achieved, never once seeing any data myself, the car is tuned and off it goes. The customer is supper happy and drives his 700+WHP M3. That is the exact experience the majority of these stock DME users have had. Period, end of story.
I thought this was known by everyone, very, very, well. Maybe the guy that is so talented, and claims to have wrote his own code, to make the stock DME better than a standalone, should open his own thread, and share his creation with the masses, instead of citing some nonsense that is very easily called out. Furthermore, I love my stock ecu tuned car, that's why I still own it. The thing is that a basic standalone is so good, that until Special DME code person (see I'm learning you guys quickly, don't want to go assuming their gender now!) can compete with the list that I pulled off the top of my head, the one where I was expecting an honest response from, and when it did not arrive, I honestly posted a "that's what I thought response" it wasn't to provoke anything I just figured they realized the facts and were gone with the wind! Since I wanted to actually contribute to this thread, not caress my ego, I will leave you with the above response. Enjoy.
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But that’s the thing, time has moved on and so has the ability for us to read, write, log and tune the stock DME. I agree with all you say above. No point in me saying that anything you said is wrong. But if you do like to DIY, and the question is if you want to go standalone or stock ecu. Than stock ecu tuning through romraider with MS41.2 or 3 which is the stock code has become a serious option. It wasn’t 10 years ago, but it is now. Of course, it doesn’t have live tuning, and sensor input is limited to a certain amount of numbers. But it now has boost control, WBO2 feedback, flex fuel and more.
We are not saying it is per definition better than a stand alone (have seen multiple in action and have been drooling over their options) but they do give you a certain ease of use with that slot has been pre-defined by factory employed engineers with a way higher budget than your average stand alone tuner. Is that better? Don’t know. But I know that it gives me perfectly driveable car that responds very well to changes in whatever the world throws at it.
No, I do not have the experience you have, but my stock ecu DIY tuned M52 has done 35k km all over Europe now very very reliably (knock on wood) it isn’t a 700-1400whp car, but for me as a DIY’er stock ecu tuning is a serious option.
By the way, thanks! In enjoyed that reaction and made me understand where you are coming from.
Last edited by et89; 01-13-2023 at 01:47 PM.
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Again, read the Original Post and you will see that I was simply trying to answer his questions. If you forgot what this threads intended purpose was, please go back and reread his post. Not sure what kind of world we live in today where people are so eager to jump down someone's throat and call them names. Furthermore that information is off topic and really derailed this thread. I'm just about the facts as always, never changed. Without the facts we have noting.
I am all about looking into this information myself, it would be great if I was able to tune my stock DME car with confidence. I won't touch my Nick G tuned DME tho, it's too perfect for the car to risk anything happening to it, that is my failsafe. I will pull that out and put in a stock one, I actually have 2 that can be used for testing purposes. I have everything to put flex fuel on the car on the shelf as well as mac valves and every other thing I would possibly need. I just never felt safe using some random bin file off the web, I know many do but I don't and I know many that wouldn't either. Also, this community went such a way as to that safe and verified bin files wouldn't be shared anyway, it would hurt too much of the stock ecu tuners businesses. Why don't you send me a pm and we can put this to the test. I can put it on my hub dyno no problem.
Better yet just email me- Colby at LUXFABUSA . COM
Last edited by Colby Colbs; 01-25-2023 at 10:12 PM. Reason: my email address
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Thanks for the invite and I wish i could take it on, But I'm 6k km's away and I have no possibility to create an MS41.3 for a different ECU than mine.
If I would have been close I would just drop my spare ECU off so you could play with that one.
I never just used some random bin file off the web btw, i never felt save either. I read my stock rom, converted that to MS41.2 (My euro M52 has MS41.0) and started tuning from there. I would advice everyone against using someone else his bin, or do this type a stuff if you don't know how to make your own.
and your correct, the OP didn't ask for options when DIY. he asked "do you really need to know how to fiddle with it".
But topics can take a turn.
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