Is it possible to determine if a flywheel is installed wrong w/o pulling the trana?

**TyroneShoelaces** · 11-27-2022, 11:30 AM

Still trying to solve why my manual swapped car won't start. I posted over in the wagon section some of the background here. When cranking no start I have codes 112 consistently in Inpa and Ista. Crank postion sensor error. I have tried with both sensors that came with the car. One is OEM. Resistance across the terminals is 620ohms (slightly out of spec) and 580 on the non oem. I've checked continuity at the dme and both terminals from terminal 46 and 32 per wiring diagram test good. I seem to have spark inconsistently when cranking. It will sputter at times but never catch, and using a spark tester I will have spark sometimes cranking and sometimes not. I suppose it's possible I have two bad sensors here? But I hate throwing parts to determine that it's now the issue and oem cps aren't cheap.

Two things that seemed odd to me: I have 2.7 volts at each wire coming from the DME to the Crankshaft position sensor. I don't know if I understand the diagram correctly at this point. It's not a hall effect sensor if it's a magnet coil correct? The other thing is the distance. When measuring distance to the flywheel I have 1 mm gap and the spec is .55. I can't make the sensor shorter, only shim for sensor too long.

In inpa when cranking the motor it shows it spinning at 160 rpm so it's getting some signal I assume from the sensor, and the fuel pump runs while cranking and the rail is at 50 psi.

The car came with an aftermarket lightweight clutch installed I've determined by sending the camera through the inspection hole in the bellhousing not pictured .Also a gold colored pulley. No idea in the point of it. https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1...inum-flywheel/

I've been reading(and reading and reading) that it's possible to install the clutch incorrectly a dowel off. Between the crank pulley, finding TDC, and the reluctor pads pattern around the perimeter of the flywheel is is possible to determine if the flywheel is off? I'm grasping at straws at this point. Is it seeing crank signal but disagrees with the cam timing so it throws an error?

**JimLev** · 11-27-2022, 10:17 PM

Do you know if it ever ran after the JB flywheel was installed?
Your going to have to pull the tranny and the flywheel to find out.
If it’s not mounted correctly the car with either not start or run like crap.
The harmonic balancer looks stock, just been painted by the PO.
The indexing teeth are broken up into 4 groups so the DME anyways knows there the crank is.

351E75C2-F3BC-4B33-A1DF-1ED712AE8B26.jpeg

6EB1446F-A3E3-4563-B3CC-6EB026D998E8.jpeg

**BimmerBreaker** · 11-28-2022, 11:11 AM

If it's registering rpm, it's likely not the crank sensor. I'd put a new camshaft sensor on and see what happens, I've seen a case on an M62TU similar to this where it all looked like what would normally be a crank sensor issue but in the end a new cam sensor is what fixed it... If cost is an issue you could always source a good used, OE BMW cam sensor and try that first

I don't see how the flywheel could be installed wrong. As in Jim's picture, there is one bolt hole that is larger, to fit over the dowel on the crankshaft

**JimLev** · 11-28-2022, 12:03 PM

There is no dowel on the crankshaft flange.

**BimmerBreaker** · 11-28-2022, 12:50 PM

What you call the "alignment ring" in the image you posted I called a dowel (BMW refers to it as a "dowel" in their internal literature). As long as that part is there, the flywheel can only be installed in the correct position

**TyroneShoelaces** · 11-28-2022, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by JimLev

Do you know if it ever ran after the JB flywheel was installed?
Your going to have to pull the tranny and the flywheel to find out.
If it’s not mounted correctly the car with either not start or run like crap.
The harmonic balancer looks stock, just been painted by the PO.
The indexing teeth are broken up into 4 groups so the DME anyways knows there the crank is.

351E75C2-F3BC-4B33-A1DF-1ED712AE8B26.jpeg

6EB1446F-A3E3-4563-B3CC-6EB026D998E8.jpeg

I don't know if it ran after the flywheel was installed. If it ran as a manual, or what the timeline was. I was hoping that there was a distinctive pattern or scribed line typically on the flywheel that correlated to the pin. I'm about at the point where either the flywheel is mounted wrong, the wrong flywheel (possibly 6 cylinder?) or the engine is timed wrong. Anything is possible I suppose. I don't know if the crank sensor position being too far from the flywheel would cause this much issue?

Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker

If it's registering rpm, it's likely not the crank sensor. I'd put a new camshaft sensor on and see what happens, I've seen a case on an M62TU similar to this where it all looked like what would normally be a crank sensor issue but in the end a new cam sensor is what fixed it... If cost is an issue you could always source a good used, OE BMW cam sensor and try that first

I don't see how the flywheel could be installed wrong. As in Jim's picture, there is one bolt hole that is larger, to fit over the dowel on the crankshaft

I feel the same, it's got rpm signal in inpa when cranking. Maybe the distance too far is an issue? I bench tested the cam sensors and even changed one for a spare that came with the car as when held to steel it didn't stay at zero resistance. Didn't change things with the car. Normally I would assume it's impossible to mount the flywheel wrong as either a dowel or a hole being offset from the pattern would inhibit this. But reading threads trying to solve crank no start I came across a few threads where people have done it. Not sure if it's just an S62 thing. https://www.m5board.com/threads/can-...sition.215972/

I don't know if the code 112 and 111 is a red herring. I had a bunch of corrosion on the dme connector and got it cleaned and even found a dme pin stuck in one of the receptacles. It did not come from the DME that is in the car currently.

**JimLev** · 11-28-2022, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker

What you call the "alignment ring" in the image you posted I called a dowel (BMW refers to it as a "dowel" in their internal literature). As long as that part is there, the flywheel can only be installed in the correct position

Graham, correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't have a flywheel here to look at but looking at your pic (is that a V8?) and some of mine when I changed the clutch, it looks like the ring will fit into any of those spots.

I do know that others have not noticed the ring, installed the flywheel wrong which crushed the ring, and of course it wouldn't start.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 11-28-2022, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by JimLev

Graham, correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't have a flywheel here to look at but looking at your pic (is that a V8?) and some of mine when I changed the clutch, it looks like the ring will fit into any of those spots.

I do know that others have not noticed the ring, installed the flywheel wrong which crushed the ring, and of course it wouldn't start.

Yup that's what I found as well, that people just got it on wrong, even a professional shop did it.

I'll double check the cam postion sensors as well. I just tested them at the time for resistance when applying them to steel to see them go to zero. My son said he doesn't see anything in inpa for feedback while cranking.

I'm at the point I'm going to see if the guy with the wobbly crank will let me borrow his dme and ews+key, and cam sensors and cps and methodically swap to see if it will start. He's about an hour and a half away. His car is an auto whereas this is a manual but if it starts at least with egs codes I have an answer.

**BimmerBreaker** · 11-28-2022, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by TyroneShoelaces

I feel the same, it's got rpm signal in inpa when cranking. Maybe the distance too far is an issue? I bench tested the cam sensors and even changed one for a spare that came with the car as when held to steel it didn't stay at zero resistance. Didn't change things with the car. Normally I would assume it's impossible to mount the flywheel wrong as either a dowel or a hole being offset from the pattern would inhibit this. But reading threads trying to solve crank no start I came across a few threads where people have done it. Not sure if it's just an S62 thing. https://www.m5board.com/threads/can-...sition.215972/

I don't know if the code 112 and 111 is a red herring. I had a bunch of corrosion on the dme connector and got it cleaned and even found a dme pin stuck in one of the receptacles. It did not come from the DME that is in the car currently.

If the distance was too much of an issue I'd simply expect it not to have any signal at all. It likely isn't an issue relating to the depth of the sensor

S62 and M62 share flywheel/transmission setup, but imo, you have to really not be paying attention to try to force the flywheel onto the wrong location. Then again, if you installed it yourself and you don't remember aligning the flywheel to the dowel, maybe that merits further inspection...

Originally Posted by JimLev

Graham, correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't have a flywheel here to look at but looking at your pic (is that a V8?) and some of mine when I changed the clutch, it looks like the ring will fit into any of those spots.

I do know that others have not noticed the ring, installed the flywheel wrong which crushed the ring, and of course it wouldn't start.

The dowel only fits in one spot on the crank hub and the flywheel has one hole slightly larger than the others, this is designed to key the two together so they only fit in the correct orientation. Depending on model and year, the larger hole will go all the way through the flywheel like pictured in the photo you shared. On others there are indexing marks, two holes near the "dowel hole" that indicate where the dowel is, visible in this photo. The holes don't go all the way through on those but the engine side of those flywheels does indeed have a larger hole, as visible here. Either way, the flywheel will not go on all the way unless in the correct location. I suppose if you simply placed it vaguely in place and then tried to pull it on with the bolts, then you could crush the dowel and install it in the wrong location... but, the holes themselves are different diameters so you'd have to really force it into place for that to happen

**TyroneShoelaces** · 11-28-2022, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker

If the distance was too much of an issue I'd simply expect it not to have any signal at all. It likely isn't an issue relating to the depth of the sensor

S62 and M62 share flywheel/transmission setup, but imo, you have to really not be paying attention to try to force the flywheel onto the wrong location. Then again, if you installed it yourself and you don't remember aligning the flywheel to the dowel, maybe that merits further inspection...

The dowel only fits in one spot on the crank hub and the flywheel has one hole slightly larger than the others, this is designed to key the two together so they only fit in the correct orientation. Depending on model and year, the larger hole will go all the way through the flywheel like pictured in the photo you shared. On others there are indexing marks, two holes near the "dowel hole" that indicate where the dowel is, visible in this photo. The holes don't go all the way through on those but the engine side of those flywheels does indeed have a larger hole, as visible here. Either way, the flywheel will not go on all the way unless in the correct location. I suppose if you simply placed it vaguely in place and then tried to pull it on with the bolts, then you could crush the dowel and install it in the wrong location... but, the holes themselves are different diameters so you'd have to really force it into place for that to happen

I didn't install the flywheel. I bought (actually my son) the car as a non runner. Already trans swapped and engine replaced with a jumble of EWS modules and DME's, and two keys and a buggered clutch switch so anything is possible. It was no crank no start, I fixed start relay wiring, and did an EWS delete using BMWTuning tools software, and it's at least cranking now with what seems like occasional spark. Have pulled apart DME connectors and cleaned the corrosion, jumpered the fuel pump with 12v (it's now priming at key on and while cranking). Ohm'd out sensors, verified 12v in the fuse block in the DME box, good compression, etc...

It's possible the ews delete is not working, but it shouldn't have spark occasionally and sputter.

I've built a bunch of cars and engines over the years, but my first 540. I don't know how you could get a flywheel off but there's always a bigger idiot no matter how much you idiot proof it. I'm just kinda stumped without tearing deeper into this thing by pulling valve covers (I don't have timing tools) or pulling a trans.

**JimLev** · 11-28-2022, 07:29 PM

You could be spinning your wheels forever trying to figure this out.
The guy that put the FW in maybe didn’t put the ring in.
If you can’t find the guy that did the FW to ask him about ring I’d start with pulling the tranny to verify the FW is mounted correctly.
Keep up posted.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 12-20-2022, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by JimLev

You could be spinning your wheels forever trying to figure this out.
The guy that put the FW in maybe didn’t put the ring in.
If you can’t find the guy that did the FW to ask him about ring I’d start with pulling the tranny to verify the FW is mounted correctly.
Keep up posted.

OK nothing new good to report. I still don't have the car running. Been busy and haven't looked at it. I sent the DME out to DUDMD and he verified that the ews was in fact disabled so it's not that. I didn't want to pull a trans and find out that it was a dme issue lingering in the background. Still getting a 112 cps code and 144 vanos code is the only thing other than a thermostat and ews code.

I talked to JB racing who makes the flywheel (nice guy there and helpful) and he mentioned they sell two different flywheels, one for the 540 manual trans and one for the M5 trans because the crank position sensor moves based on the transmission used. I am going to have to do some research into the gearbox differences. This car has the 6 speed so I think it's the M5 box? Unfortunately it's only possible to tell what flywheel is installed by pulling the trans as the p/n is on the pressure plate side of the face flywheel.

Some reading about people swapping 540 box into an M5 didn't raise any alarms about the sensor location that they ran into issues, although they said nothing about whether they changed the flywheel. Pictures of the two trans are in this thread. Position looks the same to me.
https://www.m5board.com/threads/540i....204254/page-4

He also believes that the sensor distance being too far shouldn't be an issue. I'm going to look at a buddy who has the same swap car tomorrow and swap some sensors to verify them. Other than that I'm at either the engine is out of time or the flywheel is wrong.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 12-20-2022, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by wagons ho

Is it possible to determine if a flywheel is installed wrong w/o pulling the trana?

The post title, and the answer is yes.
Treat the job like you are setting up to time it.
Put dowel through the pan/ bellhousing alignment hole into flywheel, and see if balancer mark lines up on timing cover

Thanks yes I decided today that I'm going to go thru and check the engine timing, i suppose there is a lock on the flywheel? I started reading and looking to see if I can verify it all without buying timing tools.
The engine could be in time and the flywheel installed correctly, but if it turns out I have the wrong flywheel, whatever the difference is between the 540 and M5 could be a problem.

**JimLev** · 12-20-2022, 06:59 PM

The #1 cylinder has to be on the compression stroke when the flywheel is pinned.
No guarantee there is a hole in the flywheel for the lock pin to fit into, some aftermarket flywheels didn’t have them.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 12-21-2022, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by JimLev

The #1 cylinder has to be on the compression stroke when the flywheel is pinned.
No guarantee there is a hole in the flywheel for the lock pin to fit into, some aftermarket flywheels didn’t have them.

Yeah based on this image of the flywheel I think I'm SOL. I don't see a hole for a pin for indexing it when at TDC.
flywheel.JPG

Originally Posted by wagons ho

Well, if it has an M5 flywheel, it won't run, but the question I answered was, "is it possible to see if the flywheel is installed correctly". With factory parts yes.
After that you go down the motor swap rabbit hole.

Yeah I was looking at pics of dual mass flywheels and I would have been ok with that. It looks like they put 3 holes in it (for balance?) with maybe only 1 lining up.

Do you know specifically what is different between the 540 setup and the M5 flywheel? Looking at pics online they look identical. Side by side it's probably obvious. Is it on the clutch side or is it actually where the cps is?

**TyroneShoelaces** · 12-26-2022, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by wagons ho

M5 and 540 have different impulse teeth on the flywheel.
Other mounting points are all the same.

Update I got in touch with the prior owner and he stated that the car ran with that flywheel and transmission combo and that he went through a huge puddle and assumed he hydrolocked it. Swapped the motor out of a 740 and was unable to get it started.
So I don't believe it's the wrong flywheel. Still don't know if its on right, there is no hole for tdc. Pulled a valve cover for a look and chain tension looks fine.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 01-02-2023, 05:54 PM

Well pulled the flywheel and I've never been so bummed to see something installed correctly. I was really starting to think it was installed wrong when I noticed that the gap in the cps teeth didn't match up with tdc, not that I know it's supposed to. Just thought maybe tdc and the gap go together. So I'm completely stumped why it has spark and fuel, compression, all sensors check good, cranks and won't start. Never been so defeated by a car. Sigh

**JimLev** · 01-02-2023, 06:12 PM

If you take the bank 1 valve cover off and turn the engine over so the #1 cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke and the mark on the harmonic balancer lines up with the OT mark on the lower timing cover are the cam lobes for the #1 cylinder tipped toward each other?

01CC4D4D-1AE4-486C-A836-F05816E9FC42.jpeg

**TyroneShoelaces** · 01-03-2023, 09:23 AM

Thanks for responding Jim, Yes they were. I had pulled the VC to see if there was a mess of guide pieces or a failed tensioner but it all looked fine. With the radiator in place it was tough to really see head on if the pulley matched the OT tab on the timing cover but it appeared so. Spun the motor checking the piston was at the top of travel and verified that the pulley was approximately lined up. Another revolution and cams were as pictured with valves closed.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 02-24-2023, 10:11 AM

IT LIVES!!! To wrap this up in case anyone stumbles across it, the lightweight flywheel was the problem. I bought a dual mass LUK and put it in and the car starts. Huge relief. I had even sent the lightweight flywheel back to the manufacturer and they were adamant that it was made to spec and I needed an M5 flywheel. I believed the ring gear is machined undersize so I bought a new flywheel ($$$$) just to test. Bolted it up, installed the trans again, turned the key and she fired right up. Now I have to pull the trans again and bolt up the clutch and PP because I didn't want to bother with them if it wasn't the issue. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle the incorrect flywheel with the manufacturer. SO much time wasted chasing this. I now know way more about 540's than I ever anticipated. From EWS logic to transmissions, way deep into this thing.

**JimLev** · 02-24-2023, 11:13 AM

Thanks for the update.

Just to let you know an M5 flywheel will NOT work on a 540. The indexing tabs the crank sensor reads are not the same as the ones on a 540.
The M5 clutch and pressure plate will work on a 540 flywheel.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 02-24-2023, 07:58 PM

Yes thanks Jim, Yeah I am aware. I read the threads of people swapping 540 trans into M5. The flywheel manufacturer was pretty adamant about selling me a ring gear for a 540 but I told them over and over that it's the same trans. I don't have a gear switch in the side of the trans for it to have even come from an M5. A local guy who was trying to get me a used flywheel said he's seen this happen with a clutch masters flywheel.
So weird that it would give intermittent spark. The dme just wasn't happy enough with its output. I'm guessing I would have solved this sooner with an oscilloscope.

**BimmerBreaker** · 02-26-2023, 11:12 AM

Sounds to me like they may have sent you an M60 flywheel? On the M60, the crank sensor reads the crank hub and not the flywheel.

Glad you got it sorted out and running at the very least

**TyroneShoelaces** · 02-27-2023, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker

Sounds to me like they may have sent you an M60 flywheel? On the M60, the crank sensor reads the crank hub and not the flywheel.

Glad you got it sorted out and running at the very least

I'm not sure that the flywheel maker has an M60 option. I'll find out today what they think/want to do. The whole thing was a test in logic. With a car with jumbled mess of DME's and EWS and a no start condition that's the logical place to assume the issue is. Then after all that was confirmed/assumed OK the no crank signal could only reside in the ckps or cps. The weird intermittent spark I assumed harness/sensor but nope.
The previous owner saying that the car ran with the lightweight flywheel installed (inspection of the clutch disc and the lack of dust in the rivets made me question this) but the flywheel manufacturer being adamant that the flywheel is good after sending it to them for inspection was baffling when you add the two together. This is my first E39 and second BMW project so you start to question yourself doing stuff like this. This is my son's project to getting involved at arms length and not jumping in feet first was tricky as well.

**TyroneShoelaces** · 03-01-2023, 09:24 AM

As a follow up the flywheel maker JB racing says that the diameter of my flywheel inductor ring gear matches what they have in their current inventory. So even if they swapped it out with one of theirs I'd be in the same situation. The inductor ring on the OEM LUK is bigger and my ckps is at the bottom of the distance tolerance when installed without a spacer. The car runs now with it in.

With the Lightweight flywheel it's twice the specified distance and out of tolerance. There is no way to shorten the distance other than grind the bellhousing down or grind down a sensor base (I tried but without a mill it's difficult to do a good job) All of this to even test if this is in fact the problem. Taking the trans out another couple of times to play guess and test this is not appealing. I could and likely will run the LUK flywheel but with that scenario I'm sitting on a $900 junk lightweight flywheel. So much wasted time and $ all around here.