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Thread: quality wheel studs

  1. #1
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    quality wheel studs

    I've been using MSI wheels studs and have been pretty happy.
    But, the length I need (the longest MSI) is backordered everywhere, and TMS even has them listed as NLA.

    I've tried 3-4 other brands, and only MSI last 2 years.

    Some that I've tried that last less than 2 full seasons:
    BW race
    Apex
    Motorsports Hardware


    What you folks using?

  2. #2
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    While I don’t have a part recommendation and am not that familiar with the market for wheel studs. I do have some thoughts to share on the subject. Maybe this will help individuals select a part.

    No matter the product. I think wheel studs should really be looked at as a wear item for track cars. These components are most certainly prone to fatigue. The question is, how long to go before replacing. Maybe someone has a suggestion? I know I’m keeping track of torque events on my wheel studs.

    I realize now that there’s going to be variance in the torque applied to each stud with each wheel removal. So max and min cyclic load will be changing with each wheel removal.

    Things I will look for:

    Geometry, are there any sharp edges? Any spots where the diameter necks down for any reason? Any area that doesn’t have a smooth radius could cause a stress riser and will likely be the area where you see a failure.

    Material:

    When it comes to material you have a few things at play but they are all going to be some sort of carbon steel, so you have roughly the same elements providing your stiffness and strength. In general, higher carbon content will give you more tensile strength. However the stronger the steel, the more prone to corrosion the part will be, unless coated of course.

    Is it common for companies to list the materials used? I hope so.

  3. #3
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    Using motorsport hardware on my time trial car and lemons car without issue so far. Granted the lemons car (read cheater ffast bmw) has only seen one race (14 hours). My time trial car has seen a couple of seasons but only about 3 races per with some road driving.

  4. #4
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    Agree that all the above are important. In the end, I go by how often they fail on my car.
    FYI, my car will see 80-100 heat cycles / year.

    A few places advertise some of the attributes you list.
    MSI uses 4340 alloy, cold rolled, moly/teflon coated, are lot traceable, and expensive. (I replace every 2 years, am considering running rears for 3 years)
    Motorsport Hardware advertises 10.9 hardware and zinc coating (IIRC, these lasted less than 1 year)
    Bimmerworld Race advertises "Heat treated 190,000psi Chromoly-steel, shot-peened, and double magnaflux inspected" (Lasted less than 2 years, same for a friend)

  5. #5
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    Strange. How are these failing? Snapping while torqueing wheels? Failing while on track?

  6. #6
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    Usually, yes they finish breaking when re-torquing, and it's obvious they were already past max tensile.
    I've witnessed a very few completely fail on track.
    It's nearly always on the front (can't remember a rear breaking, so I'm confident it's heat cycles).

    I'm not alone.
    Last edited by aeronaut; 06-22-2022 at 11:52 AM.

  7. #7
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    With your experience with wheel studs I would have zero reason to continue running anything but wheel bolts. My personal opinion is that failures are due to re-torquing while warm or re-torquing too frequently but given the maintenance you have had to deal with (and cost) there really is no upside unless pit stop times are that crucial. Consider running a single wheel stud on each wheel to improve tire changeouts and running bolts for the rest of the 4.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Usually, yes they finish breaking when re-torquing, and it's obvious they were already past max tensile.
    I've witnessed a very few completely fail on track.
    It's nearly always on the front (can't remember a rear breaking, so I'm confident it's heat cycles).

    I'm not alone.
    A guy I crew for sometimes has failures on track, but usually there’s some contact or an off track that does the damage. Which is understandable.

    That’s good to know the heat cycle information. Not that they are getting hot but it gives you an idea how many stress cycles to be on the lookout for.

  9. #9
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    Copying a link to Core4. I think the ultimate solution is to use integrated stud hub like they sell. This removes the geometric limitations of the threaded in wheel studs. You can use the strongest material possible but cross sectional area is still limiting. Unless you do this.

    I just saw that they will modify your existing wheel hubs to fit the press in studs. Maybe there is less supply issue with press ins?

    They have information on their website that is worth the read on torquing as well.

    https://www.core4motorsports.com/pro...-your-own-hubs

  10. #10
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    Yeah, ours fail as well ... we use the BW race. Most are >2 years, but we're only doing say 6 weekends. Those weekends will see say 10 heat cycles, and 5 wheel changes. Had rears fail, as well as fronts. It's always when torqueing, never on track (knock wood!). Not sure you'll find any easy answers ... replace annually is probably the best advice.

    Also, I don't see how the press in ones are any better ... ours fail in places other than where they are screwed into the hub. Will the press-in do any better? maybe, but if they do fail, it's a pita to replace (ie, remove the hub!). And they are still a wear item, so much more difficult to DIY quickly
    Check out the 8legs Racing page: https://www.facebook.com/8legsRacing/


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotcH View Post
    Yeah, ours fail as well ... we use the BW race. Most are >2 years, but we're only doing say 6 weekends. Those weekends will see say 10 heat cycles, and 5 wheel changes. Had rears fail, as well as fronts. It's always when torqueing, never on track (knock wood!). Not sure you'll find any easy answers ... replace annually is probably the best advice.

    Also, I don't see how the press in ones are any better ... ours fail in places other than where they are screwed into the hub. Will the press-in do any better? maybe, but if they do fail, it's a pita to replace (ie, remove the hub!). And they are still a wear item, so much more difficult to DIY quickly
    Glad to know I'm not the only one.

    Also with the core4 press-in ones, I also replace front hubs every 2 years. That would get expensive and inconvenient with the modified front hub.

    As to using bolts, one really needs 2 studs to keep the wheel centered over the raised hub (when putting the wheel on and before nuts are installed).
    It is a fair option though.
    Does anyone make bolts long enough for a 15mm spacer?

    The MSI's are worth the extra money, and the only issue is availability of the longer ones. I'll try to call them and see if they are NLA or just out of stock.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just thought of another issue with bolts. They can't go 'too deep', so I might need different length bolts for different spacers. Not a huge problem because I tend to run the same spacer.

    Looks like BW sells bolts in various lengths, long enough for up to 20mm spacers.

  12. #12
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    I've been using the Apex studs for the last 7 or 8 years with no issue. I replace them every 2 sometimes 3 seasons.
    Most of the stud failures I've seen were from spacers that do not fit properly. Counterbore not deep enough or the chamfer on the hub side not generous enough.

    If your constantly retorquing that is most likely the problem.

  13. #13
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    I've hand checked all my spacers, all good.

    Retorquing on a track car is unavoidable. Torques are checked several times a day, and tires are changed a few times or frequently during the weekend. But it is a fair question to ask what is causing these failures. My guess is that on a street car, studs will last a nearly infinite number of torque cycles?

    Heat is the killer, me thinks.

  14. #14
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    Hey Scotch, what do you torque wheel studs to?
    I'm considering moving up from 110Nm to 120Nm.

  15. #15
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    The only studs I used were from this guy in Ohio I think, GLS TopStud, who was a high end industrial fastener supplier and made some BMW and Porsche chromoly studs. And unlike all the China brands like motorsports hardware, you can actually see his facility and photos of production, metallurgy and testing certs. I went to look for them just now and all of the URLs I had for him don't work (last one was trackstuds.com). That's vexing.

    You guys who retorque your wheels all the time, do you actually let them cool first? I've always wondered if a lot of these failures are due to guys obsessively yanking off their torque wrenches after getting off track. Like all things, metals expand with temperature so if you torque the fastener hot then you're going to be overtorquing them. Add to that the clicky wrenches people use and yeet them with momentum, almost guaranteeing to go past the desired set point, and while I'd be surprised if a good quality chromoly m12 fastener would be close to yielding at 85-90 lb ft but... maybe?

    Looks like their store has been down since 2019 according to the wayback machine, guess that's at least how long it's been since I got new studs.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20181113...rackstuds.com/
    Last edited by TheJuggernaut; 06-23-2022 at 09:53 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    I've hand checked all my spacers, all good.

    Retorquing on a track car is unavoidable. Torques are checked several times a day, and tires are changed a few times or frequently during the weekend. But it is a fair question to ask what is causing these failures. My guess is that on a street car, studs will last a nearly infinite number of torque cycles?

    Heat is the killer, me thinks.
    The challenge with torque is we actually really care about fastener preload. Torque from friction is just the only practical way to set the preload on a fastener. So 100ft-lb on one wheel/nut combo could be 20% less preload than a different combination. Overall, the less friction you have on the surfaces (lubricated vs non, painted vs non painted, cone surface area), the higher load on the fastener and vice versa.

    I think the reason street cars last longer is because 1- less torque events and 2-less loading of the wheel/tire from cornering/bumps/off tracks. And all of this is at lower speeds on the street. # of max to min stress is the key, wether that be torque/loosen or heavy wheel load/unload.

    Changing your torque value is a guessing game without measuring with a strain gauge. Also “checking” torque can easily over torque a bolt, I know this because I ran a study on it at my last company and I realized I had some really bad habits. (I also learned a great deal about how to treat click type torque wrenches). I’d say if your nuts are not coming loose, you are at the right torque.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalViolet View Post
    The challenge with torque is we actually really care about fastener preload. Torque from friction is just the only practical way to set the preload on a fastener. So 100ft-lb on one wheel/nut combo could be 20% less preload than a different combination. Overall, the less friction you have on the surfaces (lubricated vs non, painted vs non painted, cone surface area), the higher load on the fastener and vice versa.

    I think the reason street cars last longer is because 1- less torque events and 2-less loading of the wheel/tire from cornering/bumps/off tracks. And all of this is at lower speeds on the street. # of max to min stress is the key, wether that be torque/loosen or heavy wheel load/unload.

    Changing your torque value is a guessing game without measuring with a strain gauge. Also “checking” torque can easily over torque a bolt, I know this because I ran a study on it at my last company and I realized I had some really bad habits. (I also learned a great deal about how to treat click type torque wrenches). I’d say if your nuts are not coming loose, you are at the right torque.
    The more I research, the more I think higher torque is critical. Clamping force between the wheel, spacer, and hub needs to be as high as possible (within the given limitations of the fasteners). And yes, knowing how to use a torque wrench is kinda critical to the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post
    The only studs I used were from this guy in Ohio I think, GLS TopStud, who was a high end industrial fastener supplier and made some BMW and Porsche chromoly studs. And unlike all the China brands like motorsports hardware, you can actually see his facility and photos of production, metallurgy and testing certs. I went to look for them just now and all of the URLs I had for him don't work (last one was trackstuds.com). That's vexing.

    You guys who retorque your wheels all the time, do you actually let them cool first? I've always wondered if a lot of these failures are due to guys obsessively yanking off their torque wrenches after getting off track. Like all things, metals expand with temperature so if you torque the fastener hot then you're going to be overtorquing them. Add to that the clicky wrenches people use and yeet them with momentum, almost guaranteeing to go past the desired set point, and while I'd be surprised if a good quality chromoly m12 fastener would be close to yielding at 85-90 lb ft but... maybe?

    Looks like their store has been down since 2019 according to the wayback machine, guess that's at least how long it's been since I got new studs.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20181113...rackstuds.com/
    Bummer they're out of business!

    Yes, I let the wheels cool as much as possible before re-torquing.
    When sitting the paddock, managing all sorts of other things, none of these approaches to torquing wheels or changing tires are perfect.
    I'm reading as high as 145 Nm for a 12mm grade 12.9 bolt (dry).
    I'm going to 120Nm.

    FYI, I periodically grease the conical face of the bolt to help prevent galling, but not the threads.
    Last edited by aeronaut; 06-23-2022 at 10:06 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Bummer they're out of business!

    Yes, I let the wheels cool as much as possible before re-torquing.
    When sitting the paddock, managing all sorts of other things, none of these approaches to torquing wheels or changing tires are perfect.
    I'm reading as high as 145 Nm for a 12mm grade 12.9 bolt (dry).
    I'm going to 120Nm.

    FYI, I periodically grease the conical face of the bolt to help prevent galling, but not the threads.
    The guy historically barely had a website so I wouldn't be surprised if you can still get them but you have to pick up the phone.

    Greasing the cone will also increase the clamp load for the torque you're setting. If you really want to figure this out then like Techna said, you have to do some real measuring. Ideally you'd set up a rig that duplicates your real world application, including the material and finish of the wheel seat. Then tighten until they yield, and then you know when you're at their limit, and you can set the torque up to that point. And then you would also want to make sure that the torque is set while the fastener is moving, ie not clicking a stationary nut but back it off and start turning until it clicks. You could be at well below your desired clamp load and the wrench will click because static friction, especially with unlubed threads and mating surfaces, will be much higher than dynamic (so the wrench may click at 90 lb ft static but it may only be at 70 if the nut was moving).

    DISCLAIMER: The above may be total bullshit as I am not a mechanical engineer. I've only learned as much as I feel I've needed to for the welding I do for my racecar and to hopefully know what I'm doing with critical fasteners like head studs and rod bolts. So please do investigate for yourself.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotcH View Post
    Yeah, ours fail as well ... we use the BW race. Most are >2 years, but we're only doing say 6 weekends. Those weekends will see say 10 heat cycles, and 5 wheel changes. Had rears fail, as well as fronts. It's always when torqueing, never on track (knock wood!). Not sure you'll find any easy answers ... replace annually is probably the best advice.

    Also, I don't see how the press in ones are any better ... ours fail in places other than where they are screwed into the hub. Will the press-in do any better? maybe, but if they do fail, it's a pita to replace (ie, remove the hub!). And they are still a wear item, so much more difficult to DIY quickly
    The only reason the press ins do better is because they can fit a larger base diameter through the hole. The thread in studs are limited to the minor diameter of the threading on the stud.

    Only reason the studs are “bigger” is due to being an interference fit with the spindle.

  20. #20
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    Would a 14mm conversion help?

  21. #21
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    I personally would not be messing with grease or anti-seize on the wheel stud or wheel/bolt seat area. Torque values are set by manufacturers based on very specific conditions. Adding antiseize reduces the friction at the wheel/seat interface which means you are actually torqueing your wheels to a much higher clamp load than I am. This may be one of the attributing factors to your failures.

    I would torque my wheels before my first session and then after lunch (giving everything PLENTY of time to cool to ambient temp). I think people are torqueing their wheels frequently with hot studs which greatly reduces the strength of the steel. I always toqued my wheels to stock specs.

    I know this is not scientific in any way but the only time I have had a failure of a stud was when torqueing hot, otherwise have never had a stud fail personally. Although I did everything I could in my setup to limit spacer size.

    A single stud and 4 wheel bolts IMO. given the lip on the wheel/spacer and a single stud it shouldn't take 2 minutes to thread bolts on each wheel. No reason to risk it given the cost of failure along with the absolutely HUGE number of people that have experienced this failure mode with studs.

  22. #22
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    I hear ya. But.
    Without inserts, the steel to aluminum interface *will* gall, creating the opposite problem, low clamping force at some torque value.
    I don't have data, but it seems the greased head surface, and dry thread surface, would be roughly the same as a dry bolt with a quality washer?

    FYI, too many variables, but I started greasing the heads when I installed MSI studs, and I've had no failures since (changing studs every 2 years). I'm assuming the low failure rate is due to the MSI studs, but hmmm. Prior to MSI studs, and all dry, I had failures after 1-1.5 years of use.

    I never toque when hot. I also torque after lunch, or other similar down time.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Hey Scotch, what do you torque wheel studs to?
    I'm considering moving up from 110Nm to 120Nm.
    90 ft-lbs ... whatever that is, lol

    No lube of any kind. re-torque only when going out for a session (as in, put the torque on it and check, not loosen and re-torque). but we do use guns all the time to take off and put on, obviously not to full torque when installing
    Last edited by ScotcH; 06-23-2022 at 07:18 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Wait, aren't you Canadian? You can't have ft-lbs up there!
    90 is exactly what I've settled on. Thanks.

    And yea, just torque check, not a loosen/retighten cycle.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Wait, aren't you Canadian? You can't have ft-lbs up there!
    90 is exactly what I've settled on. Thanks.

    And yea, just torque check, not a loosen/retighten cycle.
    Canada is so fucked up:

    deli: grams
    beer: pints
    liquor: oz
    fuel: liters
    speed: km/h
    distance: km (when travelling short distances)
    distance: hours (when travelling longer distances)
    distance: inch/feet (in construction)
    distance: mm (anything smaller than 1/4")
    temp: Celsius (rooms, car gauges)
    temp: Fahrenheit (oven, pool, hot tub)

    So yeah ... 90 ft-lbs is perfectly ok
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