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Thread: Exploding Fans ... how bad is this problem really?

  1. #1
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    Exploding Fans ... how bad is this problem really?

    Hi Everyone,

    This is one of those topics that seems to get revived a lot. I've been reading though older posts, and have some questions. Instead of exhuming these old threads I thought I'd start over. Never sure what the best protocol is here, so apologies, etc. (Here's one such post.)

    I'm trying to make sense of the debate concerning the cooling fans in our cars. Seems like a lot of people want to modify the fan(s) for two reasons. The first has to do with the failure mode of mechanical fans, i.e. "grenading." The other reason is for more performance, by reducing the parasitic loss on the pulley train. This is countered by the increased demand on the alternator, however. I'm not sure which is more efficient in this case, but the difference seems negligible.

    There seem to be two common solutions to these perceived problems:


    1. Delete mechanical fan & clutch, maintain auxiliary fan in front of radiator, set aux fan to engage at lower temps.
    2. Delete mechanical fan & clutch but replace with electric fan, keep aux fan, but wire both fans to engage at lower temps.


    Sometimes option two is incorrectly referred to as the "fan delete mod / FDM" which adds to confusion, because it is more appropriately seen as replacement, not a delete. I'm not sure exactly how the temperature sensor switch works in the case of option two. And maybe there is a third option where both OEM fans are deleted and replaced by a single electric fan ...?

    My first question is: Have I understood the nature of the problem and the solution accurately? Am I missing something?

    Secondly, why can't the electric fan "grenade" too? No one mentions this happening, so maybe it is less likely because it is not attached to the engine and exposed to the vibrations caused by the motor (especially with worn motor mounts as others have noted).

    My guess is that the advantage of an electric fan would be that it has manual override, which allows you to keep it off while running at the track (or in any HP driving scenario) so you don't incur any losses via the alternator, and then immediately switch it on when you come to a stop. Since it doesn't seem like a fan would do much when the car is moving at high speeds, you get a little power when you want it, and potentially longer cool down periods when you don't care about the parasitic loss.

    On a separate note -- I've always wondered what is the best way to let the car cool after hard driving. Presuming you do not have a manual fan control, should you let it idle, so that the fan can run? Or will the idling of the engine just keep the engine hot longer. The mech fan can only spin while the pulleys are spinning. Is the aux fan designed to run after the car is switched off?

    So does the electric fan only make sense then at the track? Is there any advantage for normal driving? A lot of people who are active on the forums seem to also spend a lot of time at the track, which makes me think much of what is discussed pertains to this type of use.

    What about those of us who run stock machines, and appreciate originality, reliability, etc. Is the fan REALLY going to explode as some people seem convinced it will? I gather it is best to inspect it for unusual wobble, and too much or too little movement w/r/t the viscous coupling. I also gather that the fan and the clutch should be replaced preventively, which is what I'm leaning toward. Might even do a Stewart water pump at the same time. The PO replaced the original pump but I have no idea how old it is or what unit he went with. I suspect the fan and clutch are original. The car has 100k on it.


    Thoughts?
    Cheers.
    Hank
    Last edited by 35nhma; 05-12-2022 at 11:00 PM.

    [ US spec 10/1995 e36 m3 ]

  2. #2
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    The fan attached to the water pump will become miss aligned when the pump or bearing fails, then it is like an explosion. Really its just the spinning blades 3000 rpm hitting the fixed radiator then the shroud then the hood all resulting in shards of plastic blades everywhere. I have had it happen 2x. one was a small buzz when the motor was reved then bam The buzz was the radiator getting brushed by the blades. Bam! was when the 1st blade broke causing the imbalance to destroy the rest. The 2nd time was a vibration at 2200, but it was just 1 broken blade. If I did not stop the remaining ones may have broke off at speeds. The pump was still OK. Speed and age will determine how much of a risk you are in. Plus what water pump are you using and worn Motor mount do flex the engine a bit.


    After 3 OEM water pumps I went with aftermarket upgrade GAF. The 2nd pump broke the fan blades. The motor mounts were replace after the 2nd fan blade broke (PS to drive the car I easily broke the remaining blades off with my hands to balance the fan they were that brittle or cheap made oem) Did not see any large engine movement, but the shop recommended it for an old car. Now I just replaced a radiator again because a crack formed. The E36 has a weak cooling system.... 4 water pumps and 3 radiators 3 thermostats 4 belts. 2 over flow tanks on a 27 year car or is this just maintenance?
    Last edited by gc325is; 05-15-2022 at 12:45 PM.

  3. #3
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    the fans do explode. i had one explode. and then found out that worn motor mounts can allow for enough motor movement for the fan to hit the radiator. exploding another fan and radiator. ive seen pics of a dented hood from a fan exploding as well. now have a 16inch spal electric fan, i was running lower temp switches and thermostat, im not now because i just put known good parts in as the last round of parts wore out. seems fine so far. all stock with a spal fan, it even looks decent in the engine bay. you do have to look for the difference, a 16inch spal fan and the sealing gasket fits in the stock radiator fan shroud relatively nicely. just needs ziptied through the radiator to retain the fan.



    the aux fan up front is very important. maybe more so then the engine bay side fan.

  4. #4
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    In more than 40 years owning and driving BMW's I never had a problem with an exploding fan and I will stick to the original visco clutch fan, because I see no reason why I should change/modify a nice working system. Causes for exploding fans, here are some: bad maintenance, bad engine mounts causing the engine to move much more clockwise and anticlockwise and fan blades touching other parts like the fan shroud cover , bad coolant pump bearing causing vibrations, damage to the fan blades while working on the car, frozen visco clutch, missing or incorrect radiator mount, shroud has to be connected correctly to the radiator, racing + running high rpms + downshifting /upshifting at redline induces a lot of vibration and if you do not secure the components you will have shroud / fan contact. Electric fans will explode as well if they are damaged. There is no mentioning in the workshop manual to periodically replace the visco clutch and the fan blade, if the visco clutch does not work, you will notice it.

    Fan Clutch test written by MWrench
    The fan clutch is just what the name says, it is a mechanism that will clutch the fan on and off depending on the need for more or less cooling air to flow thru the radiator. It is a thermostatically controlled device that when operating normally will vary the fan speed independently of the engine speed. When cruising down the road at freeway speeds, with outside temperature less then desert conditions, the fan should be merely be idling along, turning just fast enough to add a little air flow when needed, in this way the fan noise and drag on the engine is greatly reduced. When reducing speed, the fan clutch will sense higher temperatures thru the radiator and “clutch up” thereby increasing the fan speed to help maintain constant engine temperature. It may in fact, cycle as the temperature of the air thru the radiator changes depending on airflow. If the fan clutch operation is normal, when first starting the car, the fan clutch should “clutch up” and an increase in noise and airflow should be obvious. After about 60-90 seconds, the fan will un-clutch and the noise and airflow will drop. The fan will continue to turn but at a much reduced speed. As the engine warms and the thermostat opens to regulate the temperature, the air thru the radiator gets hotter and the clutch will sense this, thereby increasing the speed of the fan to maintain a normal operating temperature.
    First signs of trouble:
    A normal temperature indication at freeway speeds and an increasing temperature as the vehicle slows is one of the first indications of trouble. Many other things may give this indication but if the temperature seems to be stable at speeds but climbs in traffic or while stopped, this is a good indication that the fan clutch isn’t working correctly. As the temperature continues to climb, the auxiliary electric fan should start but may not provide enough air to keep the engine from
    overheating. Another sign of trouble is if the fan noise is high and never decreases after starting, and is there anytime the engine RPM is higher then idle, this means that the fan clutch is “frozen” and is not releasing. Although this will not result in immediately serious trouble, it will load the engine continually and gas MPG will be reduced. Load on the fan belt(s) will be higher and shorten the life of that component also.

    Fan modifications:
    It has been suggested that other models of BMW fans can be substituted to reduce the noise and load of the fan. This is NOT recommended! If the fan clutch is working properly, there should be no need to replace with a lesser fan. The noise and load of the fan should only be there when it is “clutched up” and the fan speed needed to keep the engine cool. BMW designed it this way and it is never a good idea to alter the cooling system and in particular where alloy engines
    would be effected.
    Testing the fan clutch:
    If you have reason to suspect that the fan clutch is defective, here is the recommended procedure to verify the condition of the fan clutch.
    1. Start the car (cold) with the hood open and note if the fan is turning, increase the engine RPM and note if the fan turns faster and the noise increases, if it does, first good indication, if it does not increase speed/noise, clutch is bad and needs to be replaced. (Remember, this must be tested after the car has been off for and extended period, over night etc.)
    2. Leave engine running and note if the fan starts to slow down after 2-5 minutes, speed/noise should diminish and even raising the RPM, the fan should not make as much noise as when first starting, if it does slow, this is the second good indication. If speed/noise does not decrease, clutch may be “frozen” and should be replaced.
    3. Leave the engine idle and watch the temperature indicator. When normal operating temperature has been reached, some increase in fan speed/noise should be noted, in particular when the RPM is increased. If temperature is fairly stable and the fan noise/speed increases or cycles, third good indication. If temperature indication continues to increase, with no increase in fan noise/speed, clutch is defective and should be replaced.
    4. After the engine is at normal operating temperature or above, is the only time that the “rolled up newspaper” test that many people talk about should be performed! Take some newspaper and roll it up into a long narrow tube. Be carefull, keep hands and fingers away from the fan while performing this test! With the engine at full operating temperature and idling, take the rolled up paper and insert it on the back side of the fan and try to reach the hub of the fan avoiding the blades until close to the hub. Push the rolled paper at the fan increasing the friction to the hub area of the fan. If the fan can not be stopped easily this is the fourth good indication, if it can be stopped the clutch is defective and should be replaced. Again, this test can only be performed when the engine is at or above full operating temperature. Testing can be performed in any order but just make sure the conditions during testing are those that are specified for that specific test. Do not continue to operate the engine if the temperature continues to rise and certainly stop if the temperature approaches “redline”.
    Last edited by shogun; 05-12-2022 at 11:28 PM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  5. #5
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    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobiedoo2029 View Post
    , i was running lower temp switches and thermostat, im not now because i just put known good parts in .
    how did you wire your electric fan to a temp switch? do you use the same temp switch as the aux fan? does this mean they always operate together? when you refer to "good parts" which do you mean? and how did the lower temp switches protect against bad parts?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    In more than 40 years owning and driving BMW's I never had a problem with an exploding fan and I will stick to the original visco clutch fan, because I see no reason why I should change/modify a nice working system.
    helpful! thanks. do you periodically perform these tests, or just try to be aware of unusual noises / behavior -- ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gc325is View Post
    I have had it happen 2x.
    did you replace your motor mounts or water pump or fan clutch between the first and second incidents?

    [ US spec 10/1995 e36 m3 ]

  6. #6
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    I do regular maintenance on my car based on BMW inspection list, then you will notice it, and when you hear unusual noises or see the temperature gauge climbing, I do the fan clutch test along with other checks. Regular maintenance is most important.Repair before it breaks, wear parts have to be replaced and other parts have to be checked in certain intervals.

    here for example the inspection list II which I am using
    BMW INSPECTION II SERVICE SCHEDULE – Check List

    VEHICLE RAISED ON HOIST:- Engine at operating Temperature
    Remove Engine shield.
    Drain engine oil and replace oil filter and sump plug washer.
    Check transmission for leaks including coolant line of final drive.
    Drain Automatic Transmission oil.
    Refill automatic transmission.
    Change manual transmission oil all models (except E36[M40,M42,M50]E34[M40,M50,M60]and E31[M70] engines which are to be changed every second insp. II service).
    Replace rear axle oil (E38 Every 2nd inspection II).
    Replace oil in transfer box and front axle final drive (4WD).
    Check clutch driven plate for wear, every 2nd Inspection II.
    Renew main fuel filter: Petrol engines every 2nd Inspection II.
    Check P.A.S system for leaks.
    Check radiator bottom hose for leaks.
    Check driveshaft gaiters for leaks.
    Check Steering for freedom from play.
    Check condition of track rod and front axle ball joints.
    Check steering box for leaks, check UJs couplings and flexible gaiters.
    Check all connections and lines on braking system for leaks, damage and correct position including
    handbrake cables and bleed nipple covers.
    Check Fuel pipes, tank and connections for leaks, damage and position.
    Check condition, position and mounting of exhaust system
    Inspect underside of body for corrosion/underseal damage etc (every 2 years except E30).
    Refit engine shield.

    LOWER VEHICLE TO HALF-WAY POSITION
    Remove road wheels.
    Remove brake pads/linings, clean and check for wear.
    Check wheel cylinders and dust seals for leaks.
    Check brake disc/drum surface.
    Check handbrake lever travel, movement of handbrake cables and adjustment.
    Check on rear disc brake models, handbrake lining wear.
    Grease wheel centering spigots for alloy wheels.
    Check shock absorbers for leaks.
    Check torque of wheel air deflector E34/M5 1st inspection II only.
    Refit road wheels.
    Check condition of tires if uneven wear recommend wheel alignment check.
    VEHICLE ON GROUND
    Inspect bodywork for corrosion, stone chips, damage or contamination (every 2 years except E30).
    Check fluid level concentration of screen wash reservoir.
    Refill engine oil.
    Refill automatic transmission oil.
    Remove spark plugs.
    Check and adjust valve clearances. Replace rocker cover gasket.
    Renew spark plugs.
    Lubricate door mechanism hinges.
    Replace Micro-filter and active carbon filter (if applicable) in heating/air con system.
    Replace air recirculation filter: Every 2nd inspection II (if applicable).
    E31 only: Clean intake-air separator in front of intake air silencer.
    Renew air intake filter.
    Check P.A.S hose clips for tightness & P.A.S fluid level.
    Check brake system connections including ABS for tightness and positioning.
    Lubricate throttle linkages and gate mechanisms on Carburettor models.
    Check clutch hose connections for tightness and positioning.
    Check clutch fluid level.
    Check brake fluid level (renew fluid every 2 years, 750i annually).
    Check battery acid level.
    Carry out battery condition check, use battery test report.
    Check condition/tightness coolant hoses.
    Check tension/condition of all V belts (except M70 engine).
    Replace all V belts E34/M5 only (S38 engine).
    Check coolant level and concentration (renew every 3 years) (M3/M5 every 2 years).
    Self levelling suspension: check fluid level.
    Check spare wheel condition.
    Check wheel stud torque and tire pressures.
    Check intensive cleaner level.
    Check correct operation of lambda probe.
    Replace fire extinguisher cartridge annually.
    E36 M3 only: Renew throttle valve potentiometer.
    ADDITIONAL ITEM EVERY 36000 MILES OR 3 YEARS
    Replace toothed cambelt M20 & M40 engines.
    ENGINE TEST
    Cars with distributor; check the dwell angle and adjust ignition timing if necessary.
    Call up information on defects stored in diagnosis system.
    Check EML safety path circuit.
    Check idle speed except on vehicles with idle speed control.
    Check CO reading (except catalyst version).
    CHECK OPERATION OF LIGHTS WITH ASSISTANT
    FRONT
    Side lights.
    Dipped beam.
    Main beam.
    Headlight flasher.
    Foglights/Driving lights.
    Indicators and side repeaters.
    Hazard warning flashers.
    Parking lights.
    Check beam settings.
    REAR
    Side lights
    Number plate light.
    Brake lights.
    Reversing lights.
    Fog lights.
    Indicators.
    Hazard warning flashers.
    Boot interior lamp.
    INTERIOR
    Interior and reading lights.
    Ashtray lights.
    Glovebox light.
    Panel lights including dimmer.
    Clock light.
    Switches and heater control lighting.
    Check all warning lights including Active check control.
    Check operation of heater/vent controls and blower.
    Check operation of door mirrors.
    Check horn all segments.
    Check operation of sunroof.
    Check operation of convertable roof.
    Check condition, operation of seat belts.
    Check wipers, blades, jet aim on windscreen and headlight washer systems.
    Check engine compartment light.
    Check door, bonnet & boot locks and striker plates adjustment and lubrication.
    ROAD TEST
    Check engine operation.
    Check clutch operation.
    Check transmission operation including EH gearbox.
    Check steering operation.
    Check steering wheel alignment.
    Check foot brake operation.
    Check handbrake balance-on cars fitted with rear discs: bed in handbrake.
    Check wheel balance.
    Check propshaft balance.
    Check speedometer operation.
    Check distance and trip recorder operation.
    Check engine revolution counter operation.
    Check temperature gauge operation.
    Check fuel gauge operation.
    Check fuel consumption gauge operation.
    Check heater/air conditioning operation.
    Check on-board computer operation including head-up display.
    Check for wind noise, rattles etc.
    FINAL ITEMS
    Check ATF level
    Activate Service interval indicator
    Ensure handbook service record is completed.
    Comments
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  7. #7
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    ive never seen it on another bmw. especially anything pre e34.and certainly not a old red fan, they are invincible, but ive seen this on e36's repetitively, you have 4 documented failures posted above, I mostly blame motor mounts, but i did replace mine before awhile before this failure and they where not collapsed when this happened, im still running the same engine mounts 8 years latter, there now due for replacement. its very apparent the radiator is not well located by the stock attachment hardware. with the upper radiator clips off you can force the radiator around an awfull lot. and there is not clearance to be had there, add some wear into the lower mounts and some slop in the shroud and all of a sudden the radiator footprint is much different. i also think if you knocked off the passenger side lower rubber mount you could easly shift the radiator over enough to hit the fan, i just slid the upper radiator clip all the way over to the headlight trying to replace it , any non oem fitment here is probably a terrible idea.

    in no way shape or form is the 30 year old plastic trustworthy if you value not breaking down from plastic, if you do go with a mechanical fan there is a diesel fan that has an outer retaining ring on it. it does not appear to be a ducted prop. the rings to small dosn't cover sides of blades it just ties together the leading edges so it dosnt explode. because no one probably opens the hood of a deisel crap box car in former soviet mud pit.


    ive had several other plastic adventures is the past few months , clutch safty switch connector disintegrated in my hands. brake pedal switch crushed in when i tried to remove it from its bracket. brake travel switch plastic mushroomed internally and throws abs'acs light if i brake just right.. im on my 4th expansion tank. %$#@ A and C piller covers..... im proficient repairing small electronics and as such am well versed in plastic. i own a machine/fabrication shop and couldnt make a living being ham fisted. theise cars are worse then any laptop/cellphone ive ever taken apart with the breaking clips. the brittle failure i saw with my clutch safty switch was an eye opener, ive never seen such and thing. it almost powderd to dust. i was able to just pinch it into nothing touch the wires to jump them to start the car. every single peice of plastic on my jaguar etype was compeletly usable in its restoration, all of it. from the 1960's..... leave a e36 in outdoor storage for 2 years and holy god WTF.




    good parts means i kept the good parts i took off when changing to the lower temp thermostat and fan switch. i had some issues recently after doing this like a decade ago and installed the known good parts i removed. i was running the basic spal fan relay kit jumped into the stock radiator temp switch. worked fine till the aux fan died.
    Last edited by scoobiedoo2029; 05-13-2022 at 01:50 AM.

  8. #8
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    The fan doesn't just blow up on its own. Usually the engine mounts fail and collapse and cause the fan to impact the radiator. Or the water pump fails and causes the fan to impact the radiator. I've had it happen to me once. Just keep your car service up to date and it won't be a problem. The viscous fan moves a lot of air. A lot more than most electric fans.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post

    Testing the fan clutch:
    If you have reason to suspect that the fan clutch is defective, here is the recommended procedure to verify the condition of the fan clutch.
    1. Start the car (cold) with the hood open and note if the fan is turning, increase the engine RPM and note if the fan turns faster and the noise increases, if it does, first good indication, if it does not increase speed/noise, clutch is bad and needs to be replaced. (Remember, this must be tested after the car has been off for and extended period, over night etc.)
    2. Leave engine running and note if the fan starts to slow down after 2-5 minutes, speed/noise should diminish and even raising the RPM, the fan should not make as much noise as when first starting, if it does slow, this is the second good indication. If speed/noise does not decrease, clutch may be “frozen” and should be replaced.
    3. Leave the engine idle and watch the temperature indicator. When normal operating temperature has been reached, some increase in fan speed/noise should be noted, in particular when the RPM is increased. If temperature is fairly stable and the fan noise/speed increases or cycles, third good indication. If temperature indication continues to increase, with no increase in fan noise/speed, clutch is defective and should be replaced.
    4. After the engine is at normal operating temperature or above, is the only time that the “rolled up newspaper” test that many people talk about should be performed! Take some newspaper and roll it up into a long narrow tube. Be carefull, keep hands and fingers away from the fan while performing this test! With the engine at full operating temperature and idling, take the rolled up paper and insert it on the back side of the fan and try to reach the hub of the fan avoiding the blades until close to the hub. Push the rolled paper at the fan increasing the friction to the hub area of the fan. If the fan can not be stopped easily this is the fourth good indication, if it can be stopped the clutch is defective and should be replaced. Again, this test can only be performed when the engine is at or above full operating temperature. Testing can be performed in any order but just make sure the conditions during testing are those that are specified for that specific test. Do not continue to operate the engine if the temperature continues to rise and certainly stop if the temperature approaches “redline”.

    I just performed this procedure. I'm curious why the fan spins faster on startup: does this mean that the clutch actually has three modes? In its coldest state it is engaged, at a medium temp it disengages (freewheels) and then when it gets hot it re-engages? Anyone have a definitive answer on the mechanics of this component?

    The behavior of my fan was as follows:

    1) cold start: fan at high rpm. difficult to determine changes with revs from inside the passenger compartment, though, without two people.
    2) engine warming up, but not at operating temps: fan slows down considerably. most notable just by feeling the amount of air being moved, moreso than any mechanical noise IMO, which is hard to distinguish from the other engine noises (amateur mechanic).
    3) unable to really test this procedure solo, as i can't tell from inside whether the fan changes rpm with the motor.
    4) even after idling at operating temps (gauge needle centered) it was easy to stop the fan blades with a newspaper roll.

    Conclusions: either my engine was not hot enough or my clutch is failing. I will try the test again after an actual drive, instead of just idling temps on a 65° afternoon.

    I made a video of the "newspaper test" here: https://youtu.be/Yll5rFvLXj0

    [ US spec 10/1995 e36 m3 ]

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35nhma View Post
    I just performed this procedure. I'm curious why the fan spins faster on startup: does this mean that the clutch actually has three modes? In its coldest state it is engaged, at a medium temp it disengages (freewheels) and then when it gets hot it re-engages? Anyone have a definitive answer on the mechanics of this component?

    The behavior of my fan was as follows:

    1) cold start: fan at high rpm. difficult to determine changes with revs from inside the passenger compartment, though, without two people.
    2) engine warming up, but not at operating temps: fan slows down considerably. most notable just by feeling the amount of air being moved, moreso than any mechanical noise IMO, which is hard to distinguish from the other engine noises (amateur mechanic).
    3) unable to really test this procedure solo, as i can't tell from inside whether the fan changes rpm with the motor.
    4) even after idling at operating temps (gauge needle centered) it was easy to stop the fan blades with a newspaper roll.

    Conclusions: either my engine was not hot enough or my clutch is failing. I will try the test again after an actual drive, instead of just idling temps on a 65° afternoon.

    I made a video of the "newspaper test" here: https://youtu.be/Yll5rFvLXj0
    welcome to the reality of old parts. you cant trust them, your wasting time money and effort not base lining your setup. if you want to trust your setup you need to replace everything to be confidant in a mechanical fan setup. (motor/trans mounts. all radiator plastic all pulleys, water pump, all plastic mounts, rubber ect. your biggest fear should be your car being loaded on a flatbed. because the flatbed owners insurance is never going to let you load that car, ever. and any employer should fire the employee that lets an individual load. the liability exposure is completely unacceptable. or god forbid it breaks in a bad spot and and mr cop decides how your car is moving right now.....

    there is really something to say about the existence of that diesel fan with the retaining ring. crap box e36's where a huge cash cow for bmw,the biggest yet at the time. some engineer saw exactly what i see and the bean counters agreed with him, that dosnt happen unless the engineer can carry his argument with the bean counters..


    be sure to save your known good parts so you can return to your current base line if your next baseline dosnt work as expected. im in the middle of this right now.



    yes a 30 year old fan can explode on its own especially if someone is shoving newspapers into it while it spinning.
    Last edited by scoobiedoo2029; 05-13-2022 at 09:04 PM.

  11. #11
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    Try the test again after an actual drive, when engine is at real operating temperature. In case the fan can then be stopped that easy, then the clutch is on the way out. Over the years they lose fluid, we have even refilled some clutches as shown here http://bmwe32.masscom.net/johan/fan_...an_clutch.html
    http://www.nichols.nu/tip482.htm

    When you start the engine cold, the clutch is first fully engaged, as silicone based fluid drains into the working area when the engine is shut off. The fan clutch will slow down then later.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  12. #12
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    thats now 5 failures in 1 thread.

    in the year 2022 in no way shape or form is this original stock plastic assembly trust worthy on an investment grade car or a daily driver. any denial of this simple fact is a horrible negligence to those looking for help from those of us with experience.
    Last edited by scoobiedoo2029; 05-14-2022 at 01:23 AM.

  13. #13
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    I see people responding to the thread topic,
    but not really answering the questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by 35nhma View Post
    I'm trying to make sense of the debate concerning the cooling fans in our cars. Seems like a lot of people want to modify the fan(s) for two reasons. The first has to do with the failure mode of mechanical fans, i.e. "grenading." The other reason is for more performance, by reducing the parasitic loss on the pulley train. This is countered by the increased demand on the alternator, however. I'm not sure which is more efficient in this case, but the difference seems negligible.
    It's not negligible for two related reasons. First, the fan doesn't run all the time unless you're really hot, in which case you could pretend for sake of argument that the load on the motor is equal. But once it's cool enough, the electric fan shuts off, so it's all gains at that point. The related reason is that the electric fan will cool at idle as much as it cools when the car is at redline. So you get ahead of the heat soak game with an electric fan. Everyone agrees the clutch fan can move more air than an electric fan - but that doesn't really apply at idle. So to skip ahead to your last question, a street driven car will run cooler in traffic with a properly set up electric fan than a car with a mechanical clutch fan.

    I'm not sure exactly how the temperature sensor switch works in the case of option two. And maybe there is a third option where both OEM fans are deleted and replaced by a single electric fan ...?
    Yes, people do run option three. As for how the temp switch works, lots of us wire both fans to the temp switch and they just run in tandem when they do run.

    My first question is: Have I understood the nature of the problem and the solution accurately? Am I missing something?
    I think so - but you tell us after reading the answer to question 2.

    Secondly, why can't the electric fan "grenade" too? No one mentions this happening, so maybe it is less likely because it is not attached to the engine and exposed to the vibrations caused by the motor (especially with worn motor mounts as others have noted).
    It's not the vibration. As others have stated, the fan doesn't just explode. It makes contact with the shroud, a blade breaks, it becomes unbalanced, and then it spins apart. It makes contact because of the motor mounts.

    Since the electric fan is not mounted to the engine but to the radiator or the radiator shroud, this problem goes away completely.

    My guess is that the advantage of an electric fan would be that it has manual override, which allows you to keep it off while running at the track (or in any HP driving scenario) so you don't incur any losses via the alternator, and then immediately switch it on when you come to a stop. Since it doesn't seem like a fan would do much when the car is moving at high speeds, you get a little power when you want it, and potentially longer cool down periods when you don't care about the parasitic loss.
    Yes, you can do this, but it's incredibly dumb. Risky at best.

    Also, it's a false assumption that the fan does nothing at high speed. In a track car with no AC condenser / no shrouds this may be true. In a car that retains AC and the factory shrouds, this is NOT true. Pressure builds in front of and behind the radiator, and the fans help with air flow in this situation - especially when used in conjuction with the shrouds.

    On a separate note -- I've always wondered what is the best way to let the car cool after hard driving. Presuming you do not have a manual fan control, should you let it idle, so that the fan can run? Or will the idling of the engine just keep the engine hot longer. The mech fan can only spin while the pulleys are spinning. Is the aux fan designed to run after the car is switched off?
    This totally depends on your setup and situation. You need to think about engine load if you're moving, and you need to think about fan speed if you aren't moving.

    While you're correct that an electric fan can spin without the engine running, you're missing something. This only cools the water in the radiator, not the engine. The mechanical fan doesn't move when the engine is off BECAUSE the water pump isn't moving. Even with a fan delete, that doesn't magically make your water pump able to move water when the engine is off.

    The best way to cool your car is to get a Bluetooth OBDII adapter and an app on your phone, watch your water temps, and use trial and error to see what works best for you.

    With my dual electric setup my car cools down fastest by idling. Faster with the hood open when that's an option. I shut down when the electric fans turn off.

    So does the electric fan only make sense then at the track? Is there any advantage for normal driving? A lot of people who are active on the forums seem to also spend a lot of time at the track, which makes me think much of what is discussed pertains to this type of use.
    I think I've answered this. In some ways it makes more sense to run electric fans on a street car, especially if you live somewhere really hot. You can tour into the aux fan switch and also install the lower temperature switch, and it'll also run when the AC cycles, so you'll get some bonus cooling that stays on at a lower temperature to better stave off heat soak and give you some additional buffer to spot trouble.

    The long and the short of it is that my car runs cooler now than it used to with the clutch fan.

    What about those of us who run stock machines, and appreciate originality, reliability, etc. Is the fan REALLY going to explode as some people seem convinced it will? I gather it is best to inspect it for unusual wobble, and too much or too little movement w/r/t the viscous coupling. I also gather that the fan and the clutch should be replaced preventively, which is what I'm leaning toward. Might even do a Stewart water pump at the same time. The PO replaced the original pump but I have no idea how old it is or what unit he went with. I suspect the fan and clutch are original. The car has 100k on it.
    There are lots of things you can do to minimize the risk of a fan problem. An electric swap is just one, but it's both the most sure with the most benefits and also the hardest to really get right.

    The Stewart pump is great. Order one and hold it next to the stock water pump. It's like holding an S54 next to an M42. It'll last forever - you won't regret it.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  14. #14
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    I don’t recall reading about exploding fans back in the mid 2000s, which leads me to believe that a well maintained car is not likely to suffer the problem. Well maintained means more than replacing parts after they break. It includes preventative maintenance.

    The ideal controller for an electric fan is a PWM unit with adjustable set points, though many have had good results with just a radiator fan switch and on/off relay.

    The ideal fan is one that pulls air from the whole core. A shroud is needed to do this. Most just zip tie a caged fan to the radiator core, pulling air through only half the core area. It seems to work for most people, though. A shrouded fan costs much more and there are very few options. Cooling Components Inc or CCI #1714 is one of them. It is actually based on the Derale HO 17 inch fan with 2 speed 265 watt — 22 amp — Bosch motor. There is no magic — it takes a powerful motor to make a powerful fan. None of those 11 amp motor fans are actually moving the 2500 CFM they claim and none are as strong as the clutch fan.

    I use twin electrics, but think the clutch fan and factory electric pusher combination is just as good. I changed due to space — the supercharger crank pulley interfered with the clutch fan and my front heat exchanger interfered with the factory pushed fan. I probably still would have changed the clutch fan to electric just because I am always chasing power and it takes much less power to drive the alternator than to turn a fan (you can research that claim if you want — I did my research).

  15. #15
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    Thanks for this great discussion fellas. I’ve been thinking about an electric fan swap for my 4.6 swapped E53 X5 for a while, and have gone back and forth several times on it. Seems like a fun project, so that’s worth something, but the project list is always long. I can’t figure out how to reliably trigger an electric fan in our cars, since as I understand it, the radiator inlet temp sensor can’t just be tied into? The fan thermostats that you jam into your radiator fins seem a bit sketchy to me, but maybe they work fine.

    I live in Louisiana where it gets ugly hot and humid in the summer and I take my X5 on long drives into some remote places to bird hunt in the winter, so reliability is key.
    Last edited by Henn28; 05-14-2022 at 09:47 AM.
    Current BMW
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    Former BMWs
    1996 BMW Z3
    1998 BMW E36 M3 Sedan
    2004 BMW E46 M3

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    I see people responding to the thread topic,
    but not really answering the questions.
    Thanks Josh, helpful responses in here -- pressure in front of the radiator while moving, water pump not circulating while engine is off -- and generally, for a thoughtful, close reading.

    It's difficult to know when to stray from factory spec, and for what reason. Does one modify because the original design was actually flawed (e.g. water pump) or because there is potential for improvement? If the latter, then the question is what "problem" is "solved": more performance or reliability? Is it both? Is it a trade-off?

    It seems like what makes the fan discussion so complex is that it falls sort of in between all three possibilities on the flow chart: the original design was sort of a mistake but not really (the clutch fan works well but the possibility of catastrophic failure increase with time) ... and while the electric fan has the potential to increase reliability, it introduces new unknown risks ... and while the electric fan has the potential to increase performance ... this depends on what unit is supplied and how it is set up and operated.

    W/R/T one observation you made, either I didn't understand your response or I don't understand the technology: you said the electric fan will shut off when the engine is "cool enough", so it is "all gains" from there. Doesn't the clutch fan operate in much the same way? When it is de-clutched, it is essentially not spinning ... ? Or maybe it is always spinning slightly? ... also, under hard driving, isn't this when you need max cooling anyway? So both mech and electric would be fully engaged at the same time you want max power? Or am I mistaken. Do you need max cooling capacity at idle or at high speed? Or is max cooling capacity conditional on a matrix of factors: external air temp, acceleration, etc.

    One of the strengths of the electric unit seems to be its ability to cool at idle; whereas the mechanical unit seems to provide more cooling at high RPM. YET -- in addition to its role supporting the AC condenser, isn't half the purpose of the OEM AUX fan to provide low speed cooling to the engine (i.e. stop and go traffic) ... So really the original set up seems to cover both conditions pretty well: high RPM states and low RPM states.

    W/R/T running two electric fans in tandem from the same switch. Any ideas if this actually helps? Seems like the more powerful fan would negate the work of the less powerful fan. If one fan could pull 500cfm and one could push 250cfm, it doesn't seem like you'd get a net of 750cfm. Seems to me like the system would be limited to 500cfm.

    Finally: the electric fan modification doesn't seem smart unless you are willing to both A) understand exactly how your cooling system is supposed to be managed by the DME via the radiator temp switch and the various mechanical thermostats (one in the fan clutch and one in the engine block), and B) monitor the real-time engine temps in a variety of scenarios to see if it aligns with the assumptions you made for A.

    Messing with the fan feels like starting down a "tuner" rabbit hole ... obviously this is fine if that's the path you want to take ... but it doesn't seem like a simple "fix." Rather, like a turbo or an ECM tune, it implicates an entire web of interrelated components.


    Cheers~
    Hank
    Last edited by 35nhma; 05-14-2022 at 02:42 PM.

    [ US spec 10/1995 e36 m3 ]

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    I don’t recall reading about exploding fans back in the mid 2000s, which leads me to believe that a well maintained car is not likely to suffer the problem. Well maintained means more than replacing parts after they break. It includes preventative maintenance.

    The ideal controller for an electric fan is a PWM unit with adjustable set points, though many have had good results with just a radiator fan switch and on/off relay.

    The ideal fan is one that pulls air from the whole core. A shroud is needed to do this. Most just zip tie a caged fan to the radiator core, pulling air through only half the core area. It seems to work for most people, though. A shrouded fan costs much more and there are very few options. Cooling Components Inc or CCI #1714 is one of them. It is actually based on the Derale HO 17 inch fan with 2 speed 265 watt — 22 amp — Bosch motor. There is no magic — it takes a powerful motor to make a powerful fan. None of those 11 amp motor fans are actually moving the 2500 CFM they claim and none are as strong as the clutch fan.

    I use twin electrics, but think the clutch fan and factory electric pusher combination is just as good. I changed due to space — the supercharger crank pulley interfered with the clutch fan and my front heat exchanger interfered with the factory pushed fan. I probably still would have changed the clutch fan to electric just because I am always chasing power and it takes much less power to drive the alternator than to turn a fan (you can research that claim if you want — I did my research).
    Lots of helpful observations here.

    W/R/T running two electric fans in parallel, do you actually find they have more cooling power? Have you done any tests? I speculated above that the total airflow would be limited by the capacity of the larger unit. Thoughts? If you are after performance, have you ever tried option three -- just as single electric fan with a tight fitting radiator shroud?

    The discussion of what is more efficient -- direct drive mechanical energy with losses in viscous coupling, vs conversion to electrical energy and then re-converting to mechanical energy -- is a puzzle indeed! I don't have the engineering chops to pretend I'd be any good at sorting through all the internet's opinions on this one. If I were going to TRY, though, I would begin here: A quick search finds that alternators are 65-75% efficient at converting mechanical to electrical energy. Electric motors are a little better, maybe 75-85% efficient at the conversion. So with those losses compounded, you'll get roughly 80% of 70% of what you started with ... or around 56% of the original mechanical energy. More than happy to be corrected by someone with a proper education in the field.

    Do I understand correctly that a PWM Unit (pulse modulation width) acts like a rheostat to control the speed of the fan based on demand? Do any of the aftermarket e36 kits come with this kind of tech?

    Cheers~
    Hank
    Last edited by 35nhma; 05-14-2022 at 11:52 AM.

    [ US spec 10/1995 e36 m3 ]

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35nhma View Post
    Do any of the aftermarket e36 kits come with this kind of tech?

    Cheers~
    Hank

    unfortunately not directly marketed at e36 owners. there is all kinds of fancy fan controllers on the market to the point it would take alot of product spec reading to sort out. and it seems everyone running a 16inch spal is only because of its size inside the factory fan shroud. im sure there's better options.


    the age of this plastic is a real issue nowadays if parts are original, not suffering from embrittlement and dimensional stability isnt the strong point of thin pieces of plastic trapped in a box outdoors getting heated and cooled repetitively for decades.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35nhma View Post
    Thanks Josh, helpful responses in here -- pressure in front of the radiator while moving, water pump not circulating while engine is off -- and generally, for a thoughtful, close reading.

    It's difficult to know when to stray from factory spec, and for what reason. Does one modify because the original design was actually flawed (e.g. water pump) or because there is potential for improvement? If the latter, then the question is what "problem" is "solved": more performance or reliability? Is it both? Is it a trade-off?
    It's telling that nearly all OEMs have gone to electric fans at this point. My 2010 Escalade has a threaded water pump - and twin shrouded electric fans. As they've gotten better / more reliable / more efficient it was just a no-brainer.

    But the car's electrical system was also designed for it. You can see some of the struggle I went through getting mine sorted out here: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...Any-experience

    It seems like what makes the fan discussion so complex is that it falls sort of in between all three possibilities on the flow chart: the original design was sort of a mistake but not really (the clutch fan works well but the possibility of catastrophic failure increase with time) ... and while the electric fan has the potential to increase reliability, it introduces new unknown risks ... and while the electric fan has the potential to increase performance ... this depends on what unit is supplied and how it is set up and operated.

    W/R/T one observation you made, either I didn't understand your response or I don't understand the technology: you said the electric fan will shut off when the engine is "cool enough", so it is "all gains" from there. Doesn't the clutch fan operate in much the same way? When it is de-clutched, it is essentially not spinning ... ? Or maybe it is always spinning slightly? ... also, under hard driving, isn't this when you need max cooling anyway? So both mech and electric would be fully engaged at the same time you want max power? Or am I mistaken. Do you need max cooling capacity at idle or at high speed? Or is max cooling capacity conditional on a matrix of factors: external air temp, acceleration, etc.
    You make a good point, but yes, the clutch fan is always spinning - thus the "newspaper" test. You can't tell just by looking, so yes, there's always some drag. Also, you have your battery as something of a buffer for the electric fan, though I can't speak to how much effect that has.

    One of the strengths of the electric unit seems to be its ability to cool at idle; whereas the mechanical unit seems to provide more cooling at high RPM. YET -- in addition to its role supporting the AC condenser, isn't half the purpose of the OEM AUX fan to provide low speed cooling to the engine (i.e. stop and go traffic) ... So really the original set up seems to cover both conditions pretty well: high RPM states and low RPM states.

    W/R/T running two electric fans in tandem from the same switch. Any ideas if this actually helps? Seems like the more powerful fan would negate the work of the less powerful fan. If one fan could pull 500cfm and one could push 250cfm, it doesn't seem like you'd get a net of 750cfm. Seems to me like the system would be limited to 500cfm.
    Keep in mind that air isn't water. They're both fluids, but gas is compressible, whereas liquid isn't. So yes, you would be right if we were talking about water flow.

    But we're talking about air flow, so pressure - and relative pressure - is important. Two fans create both pressure in front and vacuum in back, which helps get air through the radiator.

    Finally: the electric fan modification doesn't seem smart unless you are willing to both A) understand exactly how your cooling system is supposed to be managed by the DME via the radiator temp switch and the various mechanical thermostats (one in the fan clutch and one in the engine block), and B) monitor the real-time engine temps in a variety of scenarios to see if it aligns with the assumptions you made for A.

    Messing with the fan feels like starting down a "tuner" rabbit hole ... obviously this is fine if that's the path you want to take ... but it doesn't seem like a simple "fix." Rather, like a turbo or an ECM tune, it implicates an entire web of interrelated components.


    Cheers~
    Hank
    It's not really THAT complex. The e36 has a fan switch already that manages the aux fan. It actually works really well to tie both fans to the same switch, and while there are some risks and some things you need to do know about to make it reliable, it's really not that challenging.

    And while everything has related components, the list here doesn't get too crazy.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  20. #20
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    Although the clutch fan may be spinning but not locked up much of the time, it is still pulling air through the radiator when not locked up, which helps the engine run cooler. Sort of like an electric fan running PWM at slow speed/power. Drag is certainly much less when the clutch fan is not locked up but there is still some drag. Probably minimal like 1-2 hp, though. The clutch fan can lock up at idle if the engine is hot enough so I don’t think the electric has an advantage there.

    Twin electric fans can work if setup properly and usually work even when not set up ideally. The pusher should be weaker than the puller. You don’t want the pusher overwhelming the puller. Instead it is a feeder. I have my pusher running off a colder version of the radiator fan switch. I run the puller off an adjustable controller using a head mounted sender. I like the factory concept where the pusher is supplemental or goes on with AC.

  21. #21
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    Thanks pbonsalb & blckstrm for chiming in. Josh, I read your 3 page multi year saga which ended with you melting relays and being coached through installing diodes (like you at that point ... so over my head) ... and am convinced that it might in fact be THAT complicated I admire the tenacity though. Seems like you both have good systems worked out. Understanding the fluid dynamics at speed, at idle, the relationships of the various thermostats, switches, and modulating units --- there's a lot going on here.

    Many people report success deleting one or both stock fans and replacing with small electric ... maybe. I have my doubts. I certainly would never do this unless I were monitoring real-time cooling temps on my own vehicle in all driving conditions.

    I don't think I have the motivation to re-engineer this portion of BMW's cooling system. Nor do I think it's really necessary. I think what is important though is to keep an eye on the critical components. Motor mounts have been done --and these are important for all sorts of things beyond just the fan / shroud alignment. I will probably throw a Stewart pump on the next time a do a coolant flush, too.

    One thing I have been toying with: seems like it would be simple to remove a small radius from the portion of the stock mechanical fan blade where it comes closest to the radiator shroud. It just clipping the corner of each blade would give you easily an extra .25" or .5" of clearance depending on how much you took off. I think there is also some ability to fix the shroud more securely at the top where it is likely to impede with the fan. I wonder if anyone has taken this route to gain a little extra clearance / peace of mind.

    I still would love to know more about the efficiency of a mechanical fan vs. an electric. The same would go for other components too, like the power steering pump. As you pointed out Josh, all manufacturers seem headed this way. Maybe because all cars are headed toward electric? Maybe because manufacturing electric components is cheaper? Fewer moving parts (belts, pulleys ... etc). To that end I wonder if anyone uses an electric AC condenser yet?

    I am suspicious there is a significant amount of energy lost in converting mechanical energy to electrical and back to mechanical ... especially when what is lost becomes heat ... which you have to then supply more work to remove. Again, only speculating.

    Cheers~
    Hank
    Last edited by 35nhma; 05-16-2022 at 07:33 AM.

    [ US spec 10/1995 e36 m3 ]

  22. #22
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    You can use a 318i fan or a diesel fan for more clearance. For the 318i, I think you need a different fan clutch. Can’t recall on the diesel blade. I have run both but it has been a long time. I would not clip a stock blade.

    For you, it seems best just to buy high quality stock parts. If any upgrades, do the Stewart pump. I bought one in 2006. Still using it.

  23. #23
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    dont clip a stock blade these 3d cuts are very difficult to get accurate. it will be out of balance, and your cuts have a high chance of creating jagged edges and small cracks that will run. all of the ridged plastics kind of act a bit like cast iron in crack propagation. think gram crackers not toast. i think your making the correct decision in your case staying stock. the diesel fan has been used by many over the years, it might be the most common fan there was alot of crap can e36's produced.


    dont forget about the lower plastic mounts that go to the frame rails. the upper clips push down on these, if these wear and move around the entire radiator assembly would lower.

  24. #24
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    What I find interesting is that this whole exploding fan situation is almost nonexistent in markets outside US.

  25. #25
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    Maybe we are not going through Shogun’s 100 point inspection before each drive?

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