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Thread: M10 Rebuild Advice

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyE21 View Post
    I think I'll just run the stock springs, autox320 said they worked good with the same regrind.

    The machine shop got back to me today and said they will have to bore the cylinders out... ok whatever I just ordered a 2.0L crank on eBay, looked to be in pretty good shape. Hopefully the standard bearings will work on it, I'll mic it when it arrives.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/255490521794

    Now for the overbore itself, what should I bore it to? I think I will at least go to 91mm although I've read people going to 92mm and even 93.4mm like on the s14 block. I want this thing to be reliable and capable of driving entirely on the street. the s14 bore probably isn't the smartest choice but does anyone have experience with a 91-92mm bore? I bought a victor reinz head gasket, I think the bore on those is 90mm, would it work with a larger bore?

    Plenty of "it works fine" on the net. If want max I'd say 92mm but would stay below for reliability. Thickness of blocks vary depending on years. E30 318 blocks have been known to be thickest walled but I've never done one. Whatever you choose to do make sure the headgasket choice is exact match or slightly larger bore. Otherwise it won't last long if any of the fire ring hangs inside.

    Another overlooked mistake I first made was If choosing a gasket make sure it has the m10 cutout pattern for the coolant passages. I was using a s14 gasket and it causes 3, 4 cyl to run hot boiling over the rad cap no matter what. We only noticed when went to track days pushing hard but it was annoying emptying the catch tank. Went to a correct m10 style gasket to correct the coolant path, problem solved. S14 is crossflow head so coolant pattern in that gasket is intake to exhaust. The m10 is diagonal from cyl4 exhaust side to the intake water neck.

    Yep stock valve springs work just fine with the 286 cheater cam from TEP. Next step is HD singles. I still have a set of IE single HD's for sale. The stock eccentrics will work and reach adjustment. If set lash at stock .007" it's no issues at all. If set lash .003" the eccentric hole is further down the side. I always recommend .003" to get the most out of the cam. I use a small allen key and have to use the shorter side to set lash getting down in there but works like stock. I only moved to oversized eccentrics with the TEP 294 regrind cause the stock ones won't reach with that cam.
    88 M3
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    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  2. #27
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    I'm gonna go with a 91mm bore to stay on the safe side, I'll be getting nearly a 2.1L displacement with that.

    For the pistons I'm going to go with the custom JE set on TEP, 91mm bore, 80mm stroke, 2L crank, 135mm rods, 10:1 compression, E21 head, +.5mm valve lift, anything else I should tell them? It's $850 for the set so i don't wanna mess up the order... that would be very bad.

    I'll call the machine shop tomorrow, tell them what to bore the block to. I'll also see when I can bring everything else in for them to start working on.

    Also from TEP, I'll get their cold air intake, 1: because it looks cool and 2: because i can. I'll also be getting their battery relocation kit, I cut out the battery tray in the engine bay to fix some rust.

    Sheesh, this is getting expensive. In the mean time, here is some pictures of the car, may not be the prettiest e21 but she sure will be fun to drive. H&R springs all around, KYB shocks, brand new everything on the fuel system, all new brakes and a bunch of other work has gone into this thing.
    Attachment 703899image_50418177.jpgimage_50407169.jpgimage_50410497.jpgimage_50389505.jpg

  3. #28
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    Cool

    What kind of cooling system are going to use ? Stock radiators are very thin. I picked up a aluminum radiator tig welded with 1" tubes , much larger capacity, much bigger tubes than stock. Are you going with electric fan setup ? The largest is 14 in. There is quite a few options some with 2 speed fans.


    Randy
    Last edited by 320iAman; 05-03-2022 at 10:51 AM.

  4. #29
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    As of right now it’ll be a completely stock cooling system, should I upgrade it?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyE21 View Post
    As of right now itíll be a completely stock cooling system, should I upgrade it?
    For what it's worth I ran stock rad's starting out. Eventually I bought a custom aluminum rad cause got tired of the plastic and gasket style end caps. There's plenty of off name or cheaper ones that can be made to fit well. Some are even direct replacements. Griffin (find on summitracing) comes to mind that work just fine. Knew of a few E21's had Griffin rads. Plenty of Chinese ones on ebay etc, they are actually decent quality and also direct fit.
    Size accordingly. Our car is sporting a custom Ron Davis (they were reasonable back in 2000). It's basically a large core Chevy 350 rad with BMW necks 1.25" in/out. But with the setup I feel it really does need it.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  6. #31
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    I found an aluminum rad on google that looks promising, one of the only ones I can find that has the bottom pipe sticking out the side like on the oem one, also looks to have mounting brackets for the fan shroud, $235.

    https://gpiracing.myshopify.com/prod...gn=sag_organic

    I called JE today, they said all their custom sets will take around 10-12 weeks to make right now, not the greatest but it will give me more time to save up money and get everything else I need to finish the build.

  7. #32
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    Cool

    Yes, definitely upgrade the radiator/cooling system. That looks like a 40 mm core, the one I bought has 56mm core- largest that can fit and still run with stock radiator fan setup with, the price I paid was about same as the one you have there with free shipping,, they have gone up $100 more since I bought mine in 2020. The only adjustment with these larger radiators is bend the bottom brackets or weld in new ones and put in pads of some sort between the brackets and the radiator-otherwise bolts in the same with the same position and size inlet / outlet. 56 mm core size has twin 1" tubes, 40mm and stock size core are much smaller like 5/8 " and 30% or so hotter. I see they still listed on eBay. 10 in stock ships from china--I waited years until these were stateside and mine shipped out of New Jersey for $230 or so free shipping--inflation-- now $330 and ships from China.
    $_32.JPG twin 1" tubes and 56 mm core size all tig welded, etc.s-l1600.jpg


    Randy
    Last edited by 320iAman; 05-04-2022 at 10:04 AM.

  8. #33
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    Ok, I'll add it to the list. Ill try running the stock fan to start, if it runs hot I'll switch over to an electrical fan.

    I ordered the pistons last night. JE custom 4032 set from TEP.
    91mm bore
    80mm stroke
    2L crank
    135mm rods
    10:1 compression
    E21 head

    They told me they should be able to get them done in 8 weeks, enough time to pay off my debit card debt
    I also ordered their battery relocation kit with the cutoff switch. They called me this morning said they're making a new batch, should be done by june-july, no big deal.

    2L crank from Ebay should come today, I'll mic it and post what I measured. I should be taking everything else to the machine shop later this week, It'll give them something to do before the pistons get here.

  9. #34
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    Crank arrived. Seems to be in pretty good shape, although there are few questionable things about it.

    first of all, I measure the main and rod journals, they came out within standard spec, whew!
    3DA3883C-3F04-4B36-96A5-B280E39B336A.jpg801300BE-9B81-4123-AB96-82E3D7FAD1AD.jpg

    Possibly it was dropped while being shipped, but there are 2 gouges in the crank where the rear main seal sits, I’m not sure if this is going to effect the seal of rear main seal, let me know what you think.
    28A49D91-18C1-41AF-BA11-7BF722127A41.jpg

    lastly, I’m very confused about the bore where the pilot bearing is supposed to sit, it looks like it had a little tiny bearing in it, and not one like you would find in any clutch kit you can buy today. I don’t know if this piece is press fit and I can take the one from the 1.8 crank but I’m having trouble finding answers.
    25C311FA-5DBE-41B7-9405-DA020ABF00E3.jpg

    overall, the journals looked pretty nice and that’s the important part. Not too shabby for $200
    859D00D8-CD96-462A-BC00-02CE44BED0C8.jpg
    Last edited by HappyE21; 05-04-2022 at 09:02 PM.

  10. #35
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    Those gouges in the crank aren't great, can't say for sure what to do about them. Ask your machinist?

    There are two kinds of pilot bearings, the needle-cage kind and the ball kind... The back of that crank is pretty crusty looking for sure! I would definitely not try to reuse the old one, they're not hard to find. Google "bmw m10 pilot bearing" and you'll immediately get pictures showing both types.

    Again maybe something your machinist can help with replacing?

  11. #36
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    Thank you for the info, didn’t even know there was a ‘needle type’ pilot bearing. I’ll email the machinist tomorrow and see what he has to say about the dents. Thankfully I’ve got 2 weeks to return the crank if I can’t use it.

  12. #37
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    Cool

    The pilot bearing is a press fit into the back end of the crankshaft and 80-83 use ball type bearing not needle bearings. As too the gouges on the big balancer where the flywheel attaches , its best not too machine it can throw the timing way off, a seal fits over that anyway so long as it does not pose a leak problem your good, if it does then get your money back and get another one from 1977-1979 2.0L 320i. there is 1977 320i I just posted at pick n pull Carson city Nevada, it has a 2.0L crankshaft.

    here is a write up I did on 2.0L crankshaft I got from John.

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...s-2-0L-Pistons

    Randy
    Last edited by 320iAman; 05-05-2022 at 02:39 AM.

  13. #38
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    I'll order a needle pilot bearing if the crank checks out, just dropped the crank along with everything else off at the machine shop, they said they'll let me know what the deal is with the gouges in the rear balancer.

    I while ago I pulled a head from an 82' 320i at a pick n pull, when I was taking apart the head from my car there where some dents on the end of the rocker shafts that slid all the way down the shaft bores, putting considerably large scratches in them. although the pick n pull head was much more corroded in the coolant passages we decided to go with it because it didn't have those scratches and the cam bearings looked a little nicer. They will clean everything, resurface and assemble the head with new rocker shafts, new valve guides and new valve seals. When I was dropping everything off someone was in there picking up an m20 head that looked very nice.

    As far as the rest of the work they will deck the block, line bore the mains, bore the block to .005 under 91mm then hone to correct clearance with a torque plate once the new pistons arrive, probably give the crank a good polish if it all checks out, install new wrist pin bushings, bore conrod big ends, install new rod bolts, balance rotating assembly, resurface flywheel, install pistons to conrods. I think that's it but i may be forgetting something.

    Currently my work is having a very bad management problem making it utterly painful to work there, but I I've found a new job that is a lot better. I mention this because this project has run my pockets completely dry, i had to borrow $240 from my grandmother today so that I could give the machine shop a $750 down payment but i should be able to pay her back pretty soon. I think I've learned my lesson on starting big projects like this without planning or budgeting, because to be completely honest this whole rebuild started with me trying to fix a vacuum leak, tearing it down to just the block and head, then saying fuck it and pulling the motor out without thinking twice about it.

    At this point in the build I'm very worried, probably for no reason but that's just me. I've got so much time and money into it and haven't gotten a damn thing in return... YET. Maybe I'll be a bit more happy when i start to see things come together, but just the thought of spending 4x more than i spent on the car on an engine rebuild is kinda disgusting. Like we said at the start of this thread I'll keep taking it slow, step by step, and hopefully everything be good in the end.

    Enough blabbering, back to homework!
    Last edited by HappyE21; 05-11-2022 at 12:56 AM.

  14. #39
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    It looks like whatever is in the back end of the crank will come out...you can see the joint between what looks like a bushing (not bearing) and the crank. You get a pilot bushing puller/slide hammer to try and remove it, or fill with grease and pound in a rod that fits tightly in the existing opening/hole. The pressure will drive the bushing out.

    As for the scratches/gouges, you might be ok. It seems the seal is riding well inboard.

    I do not understand how machining the big end of the crank can throw off timing as someone mentioned. The sprocket, as located by a keyway, on the front of the crank controls timing, nothing else. If someone dropped the crank, make sure the machine shops checks for straightness.

    Also, most machine shops want the pistons on hand before they bore the block. That way, they can assemble the piston/rods and bore/hone each cylinder to fit the actual piston. Assembling the piston to the rod ensures its position during assembly.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyE21 View Post
    At this point in the build I'm very worried, probably for no reason but that's just me. I've got so much time and money into it and haven't gotten a damn thing in return... YET. Maybe I'll be a bit more happy when i start to see things come together, but just the thought of spending 4x more than i spent on the car on an engine rebuild is kinda disgusting. Like we said at the start of this thread I'll keep taking it slow, step by step, and hopefully everything be good in the end.
    Hang in there! There always seems to be a low point in any resto - that moment when cascading issues and cost momentarily takes the wind out of your sail. Mostly the one step forward and half a step back phase! It'll come around and you'll be glad you did the extra work. Plus the next one will go that much easier! My son's 82 e21 is at the same, machine-shop stage - plus parts everywhere and school finals all at once.

    Your willingness to document the journey - with others contributing, has been a real help to him on his project. Thanks to you and all in the thread. Most of all that paint color is the best!

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama Tried View Post
    Hang in there! There always seems to be a low point in any resto - that moment when cascading issues and cost momentarily takes the wind out of your sail. Mostly the one step forward and half a step back phase! It'll come around and you'll be glad you did the extra work. Plus the next one will go that much easier! My son's 82 e21 is at the same, machine-shop stage - plus parts everywhere and school finals all at once.

    Your willingness to document the journey - with others contributing, has been a real help to him on his project. Thanks to you and all in the thread. Most of all that paint color is the best!
    My school gets out on like the 22nd of june or something so ill have some more time to focus on the car and work more hours then. Finals really do take a lot of time out of your day though, along with all the other homework. Hopefully all of the big spending is over, other than paying the machinist the rest of their money, oil, little things ect: I gotta agree with you on the color, it really catches your eye every time you see the car, It'll be fun seeing what i can gap when shes all done.

    What's your son doing with his build? I'm interested to see what he came up with.


    Got the front bumper painted and bolted back up, looks really nice in my opinion. I got a front euro bumper I've still gotta put on too
    image_16901377.jpg
    Last edited by HappyE21; 05-12-2022 at 12:00 AM.

  17. #42
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    Little update:

    Turns out that the pick n pull head that we decided to use is cracked. Machine shop said its a pretty bad one right around the cyl 2 spark plug, probably the reason that e21 was in the pick n pull anyways. So I guess we will be using the 79' head that was originally in the car, we should be able to polish up the rocker shaft bores and get them in there no problem, hopefully. In the mean time I've been cleaning parts and getting the engine bay all squared away.

    I took apart the air flow meter block thing, not the distributor but that whole arm mechanism and I cant quite figure out how to get it back together. It all came apart pretty easy but I'm stuck trying to get the pin back through the 'metering arm.' I don't want to force anything because that's only ended badly in the past, does anyone have tips? I'll Post pics of the parts I'm talking about.

  18. #43
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    image_55415491 (5).jpg
    image_67179265.jpg
    image_67217665.jpg

    image_67191297.jpg
    ^ Here is a closer look at that air fuel mixture screw.

  19. #44
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    Slide the fat allen screw - air/fuel mixture screw( which actually set the CO%-want it around 1%) in from the bottom and center it with the hole above then turn with long 3mm allen wrench, with arm out of its housing its much easier.

    Randy
    Last edited by 320iAman; 05-20-2022 at 01:03 PM.

  20. #45
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    Finally got a quote from the machine shop that all my parts are at, $3750. Doesn't that seem A little expensive?

    Here is everything they're doing.
    -boring/honing cylinders to 91mm
    -Line Honing Mains
    -tank + flux block
    -resurface flywheel
    -resurface head + block
    -install valve guides
    -clean + assemble head
    -rebuild oil pump
    -install new pistons on conrods
    -rebush conrods
    -polish crank
    -balance rotating assembly

    Originally I was getting quotes from different shops for $1500-2000 although this was before an overbore and new pistons where added into the mix, let me know what you think of $3750

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyE21 View Post
    Finally got a quote from the machine shop that all my parts are at, $3750. Doesn't that seem A little expensive?

    Here is everything they're doing.
    -boring/honing cylinders to 91mm
    -Line Honing Mains
    -tank + flux block
    -resurface flywheel
    -resurface head + block
    -install valve guides
    -clean + assemble head
    -rebuild oil pump
    -install new pistons on conrods
    -rebush conrods
    -polish crank
    -balance rotating assembly

    Originally I was getting quotes from different shops for $1500-2000 although this was before an overbore and new pistons where added into the mix, let me know what you think of $3750

    Lipstick and 12pk of beer included?

    Seriously things are expensive these days so not surprised by shops charging people outrageous. Part of me says "they saw you coming".
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

  22. #47
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    Another day, another stick up my ass. The machine shop called me today, told me that my block is cracked. Maaaaaaaan come on, I told them I'm going to come get everything from them because this is getting too expensive for me. They said it'll cost $600 for the work they've already done. Ok, whatever. I really don't know what to think about the cracked block though, I mean this engine was running pretty decently when I took it apart and I drove it multiple times without any issues pointing at a crack, but they said they fluxed it and it was there. So I guess I've got no choice but to buy a new block? I called another machine shop and got a quote for everything I need done, they said $1490 for everything, the guy seemed more friendly too, so at least I have that going for me.

    On the other hand, my pistons came today, YAY! They look so nice and shiny. They just don't have a home anymore
    image_67190529.jpgimage_67185921.jpgimage_67175425.jpgimage_67161857.jpgimage_67161345.jpg

    I think overall I'm going to have to postpone this project a little bit and save up some money. Today was my last day of school so I'm free to work as much as I want this summer. Hopefully I'll have enough money soon to buy a new block and get everything into the new machine shop. I'll keep you all posted on what's going on.
    Last edited by HappyE21; 06-15-2022 at 08:41 PM.

  23. #48
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    So, there are 4 cracks. Here they are. Time to find a new block I guess. I got all the rest of my stuff back from the machine shop, they guy was an asshole to me when I went to get everything. Not much else has happened in the last 6 weeks. Oh, I got the air meter put pack together - good as new
    DA0A08DE-43CF-446A-BBFC-601F479BAD61.jpgBEBE8144-04B7-44CA-88EF-19EAE25FD37A.jpg3DDA655D-6C57-4342-B999-C99EF00AA4E7.jpg332C569D-C098-4955-84E0-07DC60F701FA.jpegC1F81B49-FE4D-4EC8-979E-40BD5E783F0E.jpeg
    Last edited by HappyE21; 07-13-2022 at 10:30 PM.

  24. #49
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    I think that means it was badly overheated at some point during prior ownership.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyE21 View Post
    So, there are 4 cracks. Here they are. Time to find a new block I guess. I got all the rest of my stuff back from the machine shop, they guy was an asshole to me when I went to get everything. Not much else has happened in the last 6 weeks. Oh, I got the air meter put pack together - good as new
    DA0A08DE-43CF-446A-BBFC-601F479BAD61.jpgBEBE8144-04B7-44CA-88EF-19EAE25FD37A.jpg3DDA655D-6C57-4342-B999-C99EF00AA4E7.jpg332C569D-C098-4955-84E0-07DC60F701FA.jpegC1F81B49-FE4D-4EC8-979E-40BD5E783F0E.jpeg

    Either overheated or had the head off before and someone didn't clear the bolt holes out before torqueing down. The holes are full of oil when take off the head and need to be cleared out or the hydraulic pressure alone when torqueing the bolts can crack the block when reach temp. I like to wrap a nozzle with a rag and use compressed air to blow out each hole prior to install. Your pics could just be overheating or even a combo of both.

    sidebar but related: Bolt threads lightly oiled and wiped off using regular motor oil (I like straight 30 or regular 20w50)to reach correct torque spec. If use fancy synthetics or super slick install lube can over torque as some find out with stud kits not using the provided lube only. Yet another reason angle torque is more accurate using the new method vs old.

    Surely someone near you has a block or used engine.
    88 M3
    91 318is
    91 318i
    83 320is
    08 X3 3.0si

    "If it flys, floats, or f*cks, rent it!"

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