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Thread: Hard to get into gear at a stop light

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smknkeyz View Post
    I did a reverse bleed on my slave when i recently changed it, using a phoenix systems reverse bleeder. Worked great! Highly recommend.
    I most recently used an oil can to reverse bleed and it seemed be working fine. Obviously, it didn't fix my issue but I might give one of those phoenix system kits a try.

  2. #27
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    Reverse bleed with an el-cheapo oil can worked fine for me, after I put in the SS line.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zellamay View Post
    Reverse bleed with an el-cheapo oil can worked fine for me, after I put in the SS line.
    Perfect. I will get that line in. Any tips for bleeding a brand new slave cylinder? Bench bleeding necessary? Or just throw it in, bleed as in the bentley/reverse bleed.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smknkeyz View Post
    I did a reverse bleed on my slave when i recently changed it, using a phoenix systems reverse bleeder. Worked great! Highly recommend.
    I watched a few videos of people using large plastic syringes to do this reverse bleeding method to get all the air out since I replaced both the clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder and lines. I ended up just using my Motive pressure bleeder and didn't have any issues.

  5. #30
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    I did not bench bleed mine when using the phoenix tool....atleast not that I recall.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    fork... ...must-do when replacing a clutch
    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    Why does the clutch fork need replacement?
    ?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    ?
    Because it wears more than you think, and even a mm or two makes a big difference in your engagement point.

    Think it through. If you have 2mm of wear at both the pivot pin and the slave side of the fork, and 1mm at the TOB, that's a cumulative half cm of extra travel your slave has to make up for. That's it's not designed to have to do.

    So it depends on how worn it is.

    It might not matter.

    You might not THINK it matters, then spend months trying to figure out why your engagement point is all the way down on the floor or even not quite able to get into gear sometimes (like the OP). You may try everything under the sun (bleeding, new master and slave, new stainless braided lines) and still be chasing the same problem.

    If you have a dial of some kind and can verify the thickness of the metal of the fork at both the pin and slave side as well as at the TOB and there's no wear, then keep it.

    If that much effort isn't worth your $30, just buy the new fork.

    ...

    I'm still waiting to see if bleeding fixes the OP's problem. If it was working fine and has started acting up, there's no way it's a bleed issue. As I mentioned earlier, my stainless pivot pin mushroomed just like my brass pin writing about 20k miles of normal driving, and having gone through this EXACT routine (including replacing master and slave and bleeding until i was blue in the face), my money is on the stainless pivot pin as the root cause.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Because it wears more than you think, and even a mm or two makes a big difference in your engagement point.

    Think it through. If you have 2mm of wear at both the pivot pin and the slave side of the fork, and 1mm at the TOB, that's a cumulative half cm of extra travel your slave has to make up for. That's it's not designed to have to do.

    So it depends on how worn it is.

    It might not matter.

    You might not THINK it matters, then spend months trying to figure out why your engagement point is all the way down on the floor or even not quite able to get into gear sometimes (like the OP). You may try everything under the sun (bleeding, new master and slave, new stainless braided lines) and still be chasing the same problem.

    If you have a dial of some kind and can verify the thickness of the metal of the fork at both the pin and slave side as well as at the TOB and there's no wear, then keep it.

    If that much effort isn't worth your $30, just buy the new fork.

    ...

    I'm still waiting to see if bleeding fixes the OP's problem. If it was working fine and has started acting up, there's no way it's a bleed issue. As I mentioned earlier, my stainless pivot pin mushroomed just like my brass pin writing about 20k miles of normal driving, and having gone through this EXACT routine (including replacing master and slave and bleeding until i was blue in the face), my money is on the stainless pivot pin as the root cause.
    This isn't how master/slave hydraulic systems work.
    The slave will fill with more fluid when the master is open, and adjust for a few mm of wear.
    There is a limit of course, but on the E36 platform it's 3/4" or so (measured at the slave) IIRC.

  9. #34
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    I will be changing the slave, replacing the line and bleeding today hopefully! I will let you know.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    This isn't how master/slave hydraulic systems work.
    The slave will fill with more fluid when the master is open, and adjust for a few mm of wear.
    There is a limit of course, but on the E36 platform it's 3/4" or so (measured at the slave) IIRC.
    I get that - but I also started to experience the exact same trouble the OP is having when my pin was worn down just a few mm. That 3/4" is there to accommodate slop in the system and wear, and when you START OFF with an extra cumulative 5mm of wear you're just setting yourself up for trouble.

  11. #36
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    Maybe I missed it, but was the pilot bearing replaced?
    See ya later,

    tony
    '98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T

  12. #37
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    Yes, the pilot bearing was replaced.

    Sorry this is taking so long. Got the slave cylinder installed a couple of weekends ago but been waiting on my tires to drop the car and doing some other things while its up. Planning on testing it out this weekend. Hand bled (I guess this is the same as bench bleeding?) with my hands by pushing the cylinder and opening the bleeder. Reverse bled until my hoses popped off and also used my Motive power bleeder. Also installed a new stainless clutch line so hopefully it works.

  13. #38
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    I did not read the responses..but!!!!! going into second, and then dbl clutching into first will almost always get you first gear

  14. #39
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    Ugh. Alright so I finally was able to test the car after replacing the slave cylinder, clutch line and bleeding. No change 🙄

    It seems like there is a consistent delay between when I press the clutch pedal and when I can get into gear. I press in the clutch, try to get in gear (which isn’t possible) but after about 2-3 seconds, I can get in fine and the car shifts fine up until I go back into neutral. As soon as I try to get into gear from neutral, the problem repeats itself. Does this still sound like the worn pin? Or more of a bleed issue? I might bite the bullet and buy that phoenix reverse bleed tool.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewrjontan View Post
    So I replaced my clutch (f1 racing and saves flywheel) along with my tranny detent pins over 2 years ago on my 95 M3. It’s a track car so I rarely drive it outside of a few nice days and a few track events. Anyways, it runs great other than the fact that sometimes it’s hard to get in gear.

    This happens sometimes on start up; if I am in gear it’s kind of hard to get into neutral or if I am in neutral it is kind of difficult to get into 1st or reverse. Once I get going everything shifts perfectly fine. However if I pull up to a stop light, I can push the clutch in and get into gear, go to neutral etc. however, if I release the clutch (in neutral, still stopped) then push the clutch in and try to go into first to get going again, I am met with some resistance. Sometimes I can get into gear if I just keep wiggling and pushing but usually I have to release the clutch and keep trying.

    The car has been doing this since I changed the clutch. I have noticed that while st a stop light, clutch out and in neutral, if I push the clutch in, then give a little rev, I can go into gear just fine and get going.

    Any ideas? Transmission fluid is fresh, clutch as far as I know is bled properly (done it multiple times) and I don’t see any leaks. Could my slave be failing? I believe it is original and the car has 155K.

    Thanks.
    What clutch kit is this?
    [IMG][/IMG]

  16. #41
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    Sorry that’s a typo. It’s a sachs pressure plate. F1 racing clutch and chromoly flywheel. It’s an eBay brand of clutch but plenty of people on here have had nothing but good things to say about their products which is why I went with them.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewrjontan View Post
    Sorry that’s a typo. It’s a sachs pressure plate. F1 racing clutch and chromoly flywheel. It’s an eBay brand of clutch but plenty of people on here have had nothing but good things to say about their products which is why I went with them.
    The ebay F1/FX clutches are big piles of poop and plenty of people will have a lot of shifting & engagement/disengagement problems with them and replace a lot of the supporting parts ie; master & slave cylinders, lines, bleed and re-bleed, forks, pins............

    Don't get me wrong, some of the parts do need to be replaced when replacing a clutch and the master & slave will go out on you at some point.

    You answered your own question in your first post; The car has been doing this since I changed the clutch.

    Is it a real Sachs pressure plate or just the same color as a Sachs? How much $ was the kit you bought?

    Here is a thread about eBay clutches;
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...7#post30748927
    [IMG][/IMG]

  18. #43
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    I've purchased a bunch of stuff from F1 for several cars over the years and had no problems at all. But there does seem to be some sort of mismatch - maybe. Also, what fluid do you have in the transmission. And for the reverse bleeder, you can buy a box of 60cc syringes on Amazon for about 10 bucks. One of those and a couple inches of vinyl tubing works.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJLM34A View Post
    The ebay F1/FX clutches are big piles of poop and plenty of people will have a lot of shifting & engagement/disengagement problems with them and replace a lot of the supporting parts ie; master & slave cylinders, lines, bleed and re-bleed, forks, pins............

    Don't get me wrong, some of the parts do need to be replaced when replacing a clutch and the master & slave will go out on you at some point.

    You answered your own question in your first post; The car has been doing this since I changed the clutch.

    Is it a real Sachs pressure plate or just the same color as a Sachs? How much $ was the kit you bought?

    Here is a thread about eBay clutches;
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...7#post30748927
    Planning to read the whole thread when I get home but at first glance, it kind of just sounds like that person wasn’t expecting a stage 3 clutch to be like more of an on-off switch. Also seems like a lot of people had no issues with their stage 2 clutches. It’s a real sachs pressure plate that was purchased separately from the clutch kit.

    It only started being noticeable after changing the clutch but along with the clutch, I did a whole suspension refresh, replaced the detent pins, all the transmission parts that go with replacing the clutch (aside from the slave cylinder), bushings and what not along the drive shaft and differential, seals and rebuilt the cv axles off the top of my head. I’m certainly hoping the clutch isn’t the culprit but it does sound like I may have to get back in there.

  20. #45
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    I know I've been beating this drum, but my money is still on the pivot pin - this just sounds too much like what happened to me (with both a brass AND a stainless pivot pin.

    Any update here?

    I got a borescope for $18 on Amazon. You could certainly take a look inside the bell housing for less than it's been costing to throw parts at it.

  21. #46
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    Yeah so I bought a phoenix reverse bleeder and bled it nice and good. Unfortunately there is no change. I considered using my flex cam in there while I had my slave out but didn’t think I’d be able to see the pin with it.

    I don’t get it though, if the pin was bad wouldn’t all of the shifts/clutch presses/releases do the same thing? Why would only the initial clutch in from neutral be problematic?

    I found some threads on an e39 m5 group where the exact issues I am having are super common on those cars and it’s not necessarily an issue. Which it isn’t really, just need to clutch in for a few seconds at a light before going into gear. So I am honestly thinking it’s just something not worth worrying about until the next time I need to change the clutch. Could it be just a weird characteristic of said clutch/flywheel/pressure plate combination?

  22. #47
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    The synchros help enough when you're moving that you don't notice it nearly as much. And a lot of us are good enough at rev matching that it further reduces the number of chances you'd have to notice a problem.

    I'd guess if you tried to downshift to second from 4th without rev matching you'd find it doesn't want to go into gear in that situation, either.


    I will say this: if it's the pivot pin, it WILL get worse. If it's just the transmission / clutch being weird like the 5er example you gave, it might just be like that long term without getting worse.


    I did a 6 speed swap and discovered my stainless pin was the reason I was having trouble getting it into first - but keep in mind my brass pin got this EXTREMELY bad before I got to the point where it was un-drivable. (Note that even the plastic pin is worn down - it only looks un-worn compared to the other two, but compared to a new one this plastic one is worn a few mm. Also - this plastic pin had 100k on it, the brass pin had around 30k, and the steel one here had 15k on it).
    20220522_111357.jpg

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  23. #48
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    I offered to fix a neighbor's 318i convertible several years ago. It was a gift from her husband who had just passed away. I was annoyed at having to remove the tranny, in my driveway, for a $2 plastic part.

    After I finished, I wondered if anyone ever a tried a fix from the outside. Perhaps by pushing the pin in a little. Or knocking/drilling it out, tapping the hole and threading a bolt in its place. (Which I'd wished BMW had done to install the pin.)

    Or, I wonder if someone in this case could tap the pin in a little from the outside, to see if it is the problem, if changing the position (making it effectively longer) helps.
    Last edited by R Shaffner; 05-22-2022 at 09:32 PM.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    The synchros help enough when you're moving that you don't notice it nearly as much. And a lot of us are good enough at rev matching that it further reduces the number of chances you'd have to notice a problem.

    I'd guess if you tried to downshift to second from 4th without rev matching you'd find it doesn't want to go into gear in that situation, either.


    I will say this: if it's the pivot pin, it WILL get worse. If it's just the transmission / clutch being weird like the 5er example you gave, it might just be like that long term without getting worse.


    I did a 6 speed swap and discovered my stainless pin was the reason I was having trouble getting it into first - but keep in mind my brass pin got this EXTREMELY bad before I got to the point where it was un-drivable. (Note that even the plastic pin is worn down - it only looks un-worn compared to the other two, but compared to a new one this plastic one is worn a few mm. Also - this plastic pin had 100k on it, the brass pin had around 30k, and the steel one here had 15k on it).
    20220522_111357.jpg
    That's wild, how the heck can the plastic last so much better? Definitely will be replaced with a plastic one if I ever drop the tranny again. I replaced all of this stuff at 150k and I don't remember my plastic pin looking bad at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by R Shaffner View Post
    I offered to fix a neighbor's 318i convertible several years ago. It was a gift from her husband who had just passed away. I was annoyed at having to remove the tranny, in my driveway, for a $2 plastic part.

    After I finished, I wondered if anyone ever a tried a fix from the outside. Perhaps by pushing the pin in a little. Or knocking/drilling it out, tapping the hole and threading a bolt in its place. (Which I'd wished BMW had done to install the pin.)

    Or, I wonder if someone in this case could tap the pin in a little from the outside, to see if it is the problem, if changing the position (making it effectively longer) helps.
    Interesting, I don't see why it couldn't be done. The hard part I guess would be retrieving the pin in the housing after it got knocked out.

    Update:
    So I have been driving the car a lot more recently since I finally got around to getting my new tires. I always forget to mention, that this issue also occurs when say I am moving and approaching a stop light. I will start pressing on the brakes and eventually clutch-in. Once I get closer to the light and come to a complete stop, I will try to shift into neutral and sometimes (more often then not) it will be difficult to shift out of gear and into neutral. It doesn't take much force, but definitely more resistance than normal. Once I do get into neutral, it is easy to go back into gear without releasing the clutch pedal. If I go into neutral, release the clutch, then clutch back in, the problem comes back and it's difficult to shift into gear.

    I also noticed today that upon starting my car on my lunch break (parked in gear, in reverse) it took a lot of force to get into neutral. This happens sometimes, really not that often, but definitely happens; happens in first gear too.

    So again, it's just super weird that this extra resistance happens when it does. If it was the pin, wouldn't this happen with every shift?

    I think I might try changing the transmission fluid. I have always ran Redline D4 ATF. Any one have any other suggestions?

  25. #50
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    No, in my personal experience trouble with the pin was wildly inconsistent. YMMV.

    The ONLY explanation I have is that if you dropped a cannonball off your roof 1000 times onto your driveway, it'd look pretty trashed at the end (ignoring its impact on the driveway) - especially if you could arrange to hit the exact same spot all 1000 times. And if you dropped a basketball off your roof 1000 times, it'd still look brand new.

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