Member
No. As others have said here, the synchros help when everything is moving, AND when the relative speeds are pretty close.Originally Posted by ewrjontan
If you've ever driven with a blown clutch line you'd know what we mean. When you come to a stop you have to shut off the engine, put it in first, and then start the car in first gear. If you're not facing uphill, it will start. Then you can accelerate and shift to 2nd and higher gears by using the throttle to get the engine speed to match the revs needed for the next higher gear.
So even with no clutch action at all, you can shift gears by getting the revs close. But when you're stopped, the engine is at idle and the transmission is stopped. Not close at all. So to get back in first, or reverse, you have to stop the engine and start it in gear.
In this case your clutch is only partially disengaging. So you can start the car in gear without having it lurch forward. But the partially engaged clutch is spinning some of the gear train too fast for the synchros to do their job when everything else is stopped. So you can't get it in first or reverse with the engine already running.
Last edited by R Shaffner; 05-31-2022 at 08:50 PM.
Member
I'm helping my brother with his e34 that has 300,000 miles on it. Same issue. I couldn't get the oil can approach from the slave to work so I used a hand pressure pump from Harbor Freight. Seemed to work great first try. But the problem remains.
The difference here is I know the clutch is well worn, unlike the OP's. It should be easier to disengage, from the wear. I just got a borescope and will try to check the pivot pin soon. Might try new clutch lines since these look real old.
Last edited by R Shaffner; 05-31-2022 at 08:52 PM.
Member
Hmmm. This is super interesting.
So when I’m stopped, Clutch in and a few seconds later I can get into gear. Does this mean the transmission is slowing down enough for me to move into gear? Assuming the clutch is partially engaged?
This makes sense and I guess the pin definitely could be the culprit if the transmission isn’t completely disengaging.
I guess at speed (shifting up into higher gears) it makes sense since the every thing engine/transmission wise are at similar speeds but when I clutch in while approaching a light, everything’s still spinning?
Awesome. I’m glad someone unfortunately has a similar issue. I might try and see if I can fit my snake cam in mine if I find time this weekend as well. From what I have seen, I believe this is a somewhat common issue among e34’s.
Member
You probably did them, but I believe changing the motor mounts fixed this issue on my car. At least, it has not reoccurred since. Whether or not they could actually even cause this is beyond me, but it seems possible.
Member
Yup all mounts were replaced. However, I don't think that would play a role when at a standstill?
Member
Probably not, I do not have causal proof. It just seems to have stopped after changing them.
Member
Update:
I got a cheap scope on Amazon. Removed the slave, put the scope in there and had a real hard time moving the camera around inside the transmission and keeping the lens clean. I decided to put on a little hook attachment that helped keep the lens clean, but getting a good view of the pivot pin seemed impossible.
Then it hit me that I might be able to use the curve of the pivot fork to guide the camera to the pivot pin. It worked! Here's a picture:
e34 Pivot Pin.jpg
You can see the base of the pin facing up in the picture. I took a video and watched the fork and pin while I put my thumb in the opening for the slave and pressed on the fork, as the slave would. This image stayed pretty much as you see it. That is, I think the pin looks OK. Not missing the top part, or disintegrated as happened to one on a 318i I once repaired.
So, the good news is the scope can work to examine the pivot pin. The bad news for me is that it isn't the problem.
Now I'm thinking I probably have a bad pilot bearing. I was thinking that a worn pivot pin might keep the clutch from disengaging fully, but in this case there were two other factors that suggested that might not be the problem. One was the fact that the clutch is well worn and therefore it shouldn't take as much fork movement to disengage it. The other was that when I started the car in first or reverse, and slowly lifted the clutch pedal, I expected immediate action and didn't get it. That is, I had to lift the clutch 1-2" off the floor before it started to engage.
And now this image is a third factor that suggests the slave, fork, and pivot pin are ok. The release bearing isn't making noise. So I'm thinking the issue in my car is probably a bad pilot bearing that is spinning the input shaft when the clutch is disengaged.
If the slave were still in (or if I reinstall it), I could probably test this by:
Raising a rear wheel (or both since this car has an LSD)
Putting it in 1st or reverse with the engine off
Having someone press the clutch pedal in (or prop it in)
And then turn the rear wheel(s).
My guess is that then I'll be able to turn the wheel(s) against some resistance, and perhaps then hear the bad pilot bearing.
I might try that next, or I might leave the slave off while I prepare to pull the tranny.
Here's a link I found that talks about pilot bearings. I'm sure there are many others like it.
https://www.safetybrakeandclutch.co....w-mine-faulty/
Last edited by R Shaffner; 06-05-2022 at 07:53 AM.
Member
Another update:
I put the slave back in, bled it, and did the test described above. With the engine off, in 1st gear, with the clutch in and the rear wheels off the ground, it was REAL hard to turn the rear wheel. So I did the same test with it in 5th gear. I could turn the rear wheel and the engine wouldn't turn. But it was pretty hard to turn. Not like it is in neutral.
So for some reason the clutch isn't disconnecting the engine and transmission. Now I'm thinking it's either the pilot bearing or a worn/sticking friction plate. (Once I had a friction plate fail on a LR Discovery. Basically it started to come apart so the clutch wouldn't disengage.)
In any event, the result will be the same. The transmission has to be pulled and the all parts replaced (clutch, RMS, pilot bearing, pivot pin, etc.) So the failing part(s) will be replaced by replacing them all.
(One other thing I did was to check the clutch master cylinder, to make sure it didn't have a mechanical problem. I seems to work fine, and if I start the car in gear and hold the clutch in for a while, it doesn't start to engage any more. So I think the master is ok and the problem is in one or more parts in the transmission. Also, when I press the clutch in slowly by hand, I can tell it's giving resistance and building pressure right away. Much different from the times when it had air in the system. I think all that suggests the hydraulic system is working as it should. I wanted to make sure of that before pulling the tranny, of course.)
Last edited by R Shaffner; 06-05-2022 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Clarification
Member
You're assuming the clutch disconnects the trans from the engine completely on e36 if all parts are okay. From my experience this is only partially true.
I personally had your problem, then I replaced the clutch.
Old clutch had 2 of 3 tangential leaf springs snapped.
With the new clutch, the problem disappeared, now after about 40k miles it is about 25% as bad as with the old bad clutch, but doesn't get worse. I don't think the clutch systems on e36 are perfectly designed and I don't think that this problem can be adressed in any other way than replacing the clutch. The hard to get into gear situation has not disappeared for me completely and I don't think there's something that can be done about it. It seems to be a result of the clutch systems design.
Member
Ah, bummer dude. I appreciate the borescope images. To me, it doesn't look like you can truly tell if the pivot pin is worn down or not, at last not from that angle.
According to the link you posted about the pilot bearing, it sounds like it could potentially be due to that.
So your hard to get in gear situation still happens, just not every time?
Member
needs more force to get into first gear than when clutch was new, and 1 out of 200 times of going into first it won't go in and I have to press the clutch again and try again. Before replacing the clutch it was really bad, like once every 5 shifts into first from neutral.
Member
My update:
I got the transmission, clutch and flywheel off. The issue wasn't the clutch. It's worn but nothing is coming apart.
However, this is all that was left of the pilot bearing:
Pilot Brearing Remains.jpg
I don't know what happened to the balls or to the outer race. I guess it started coming apart, and then destroyed itself, all but these few parts.
I was puzzled by this at first. I thought the pilot bearing might be failing and causing resistance, enough to spin the input shaft even when the clutch was disengaged. But with just the inner race left, it couldn't cause resistance and make the input shaft spin.
Then it hit me that the pilot bearing is supposed to center the shaft. This is an old tranny with 300,000 miles. Without a working pilot bearing in place, the input shaft probably wobbles. That would let the friction plate wobble too, which would probably let it lightly contact the flywheel or the pressure plate, or both. So now I'm thinking that's why it wouldn't go in gear when the car was stopped -- the gearbox was being spun by this wobbling motion.
I'll check the input shaft tomorrow to see how much play it has. Even if it has some play, a new pilot bearing should help. I'll find out soon.
Last edited by R Shaffner; 06-25-2022 at 09:45 PM.
Member
Man...that's crazy. I wonder where all the bearings are though.
So today, I guess I was parked on a little bit of an incline (rolling forward). I always park in gear, so I parked in reverse, shut off the car then realized I forgot the ebrake. Put the ebrake on and tried to get into neutral to release some pressure off of the transmission and it was stuck.
Started the car to leave. Clutch in and shifter is stuck and the car (if in neutral) would probably roll forward however, it seemed to be stuck since it was stuck in reverse. Revved a little, backed up and eventually just forced the shifter a little bit out of gear. Does this seem weird? Clutch in, there shouldn't be any resistance right and I should just be able to move. But then again, the clutch isn't totally engaged either otherwise I wouldn't be able to sit and idle with my clutch pedal depressed and not giving any gas.
Member
I found this explanation.
https://www.safetybrakeandclutch.co....nd%20stopping.
Sounds like your pilot bearing might be bad too.
Member
BMW E36 M3 Expert
If you want a proper press in fit pilot bearing, you have to use a Genuine BMW one. Even though the OEM ones out there are the "same" size, they are on the slimmer side of their posted dimensional specs. That small difference is a slip in fit for OEM.
Member
That’s what’s annoying, I did use a genuine bmw pilot bearing 😢😢
Member
This is just follow-up. In posts above we talked about the scope picture I took of the pivot pin through the slave opening. I thought it looked OK, someone else said they thought it looked worn. We were both right.
Here's a picture comparing it (bottom) to a new one. (The old one is also white plastic, just real dirty.) Overall I think it held up pretty well, and the scope was a good way to check it out.
Pivot Pin.jpg
Last edited by R Shaffner; 06-28-2022 at 07:34 AM.
Member
I'm not saying your problem is the bearing, just that it might be. I've also heard of bearings being hurt by mechanics forcing the tranny to mate up to the engine, or not having the right angle and alignment.
I had a friction plate come partially apart and give similar behavior. And you might have tranny and/or shifter issues.
Member
Sounds like it's time to take her apart again
Member
More follow-up. I got the new clutch installed, with new parts including a pivot pin and pilot bearing. The clutch engages and disengages normally now. So in this case the problem was clearly the blown pilot bearing.
Member
Awesome, glad you got it fixed.
Member
e36 clutch systems don't separate the engine from the transmission as good as it would be necessary to avoid symptoms like this. bmw did a bad job there. there's nothing you can do about it. if you replace the clutch it will be good for the first 20% of clutch life, the other 80% will be like what you describe. bmw just didn't give the system enough reserves. it works fine when new but the moment the pivot pin or something else wears even a bit, the geometry doesn't allow full travel anymore.
Last edited by samy01; 08-05-2022 at 12:15 AM.
Member
No offense and excuse the dissent, but this is BS. I've had a bunch of BMWs since my first 2002 in the early '70s and never had this issue. In fact, I've had and seen and worked on BMWs with more miles, and still worked perfectly, than other cars that needed complete clutch system replacements. The system works normally for a lot of miles. If something isn't working properly then there's a problem that needs to be fixed. I've read the two links up there about the pilot bearings. Yes, an important factor is that the pilot keeps the input shaft in line but there are transmissions that don't use a pilot. They usually have a large input shaft bearing to make up for that but they still fail quicker than usual. Also, the article failed to directly mention that the pilot bearing only comes into play when the transmission is in gear (driveline engaged from input shaft to tires) and the clutch pedal is depressed (clutch disengaged), engine running. They do mention the speed differential between the engine and input shaft that occurs during shifts from one gear to the other, indirectly. It's also not at all unusual that the plastic pivot lasts longer. The 'plastics' , nylon and delrin usually, have well known self-lubricating properties. That nylon pivot is tough stuff. The metal pins have no lubricating properties. They suck, and unless you have a setup something like a multi-disc Tilton clutch and plate that might require a metal pin, they're not worth it. Even the silicon-bronze model doesn't self lubricate like they lead you to believe. No lube, the squeaking will drive you nuts, and they wear out. I drilled a small hole in the bell housing on mine to stick the plastic tube from a grease can to shoot some in every now and then and it works but it doesn't last. Tilton also makes an integrated TO bearing/slave cylinder like the E46 model that eliminates all of the stock parts but they're not cheap and they take a bit of setup. There's a lot of posts here to just to validate that if there's an issue then there's a problem that need to be found and fixed.
Last edited by tjm3; 08-05-2022 at 11:43 AM. Reason: spelling and grammar, what else!
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Member
This is the only way to go for a metal pivot. If you check back on my posts you'll find I suggested this method years ago but I changed back to the nylon pivots. I didn't feel the need to have to grease this thing every few miles.
Easy mod to make but I would use one of those flat style zerks.
Last edited by tjm3; 08-07-2022 at 11:42 AM.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks