Member
Use your own judgement. Obviously if you involve the BAR then you're done with that shop. I'll also guess that if you continue to spend money at either shop they'll continue to be nice. On the other hand, I don't know how the BAR will handle two shops being involved in a cat replacement that didn't solve the problem. Maybe they'll go after both shops for not doing the required testing. Maybe each shop will blame the other for not testing and neither will get dinged. Maybe it's a loophole for an expensive scam. That's an interesting situation.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Trying to figure this out, the only money I have spent is on parts and for the cats. No shop has charged me for labor yet because either have really done anything.Originally Posted by tjm3
Its pretty frustrating as I have been daily driving it for almost a month and seriously nothing is noticeable wrong with it, and it sucks I have to spend all this time trying to find one little thing that is only to please my California overlords. Obviously something is wrong though, i just hope it wont be impossible to find.
Member
This was posted previously, but I figured I'd post it again for emissions related items. Seeing as how the fuel filter was not replaced ever, I would doubt anything else was replaced unless it was absolutely needed.
Depending on what you want to do with this car would dictate how much you want to dump in. If you are handy and want to keep this car for a while, perhaps it might be worthwhile to clean/refresh/replace the often neglected items that have been suggested by the other posts and some you have already done:
I had a 98 328is (might not all apply to '96) and did these items at 150-175k. Might not be worth doing as there will be a point where the car will never pass.
New plugs
Replace all soft vacuum lines, SAP, check valve, vacuum canister, CCV, oil dip, brake booster line etc
Clean ICV and throttle body
Clean MAF
Clean injectors
Pre cat sensors
New air filter
New Ignition coils/boots
Fuel filter
Do these last maybe?
Crankshaft position sensor
Camshaft positions sensor
Vanos solenoid
Also try going to a different smog shop to compare numbers
Last edited by boink; 02-09-2022 at 04:09 AM.
Member
OP, was there anything in the service records indicating the cylinder head was removed for any reason?
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Well, it's probably gonna get worse. The BAR has put out a questionnaire and request for feedback on instituting a vehicle safety inspection program.
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Vehicle Safety Inspection Program Questionnaire
The Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) is working to develop the new Vehicle Safety Inspection Program established by Assembly Bill 471 (Low, Chapter 372, Statutes of 2021). At a minimum, the new program will combine the current brake and lamp inspection programs into one program as soon as January 1, 2024.
As part of this process, BAR is soliciting input from our stakeholders and welcomes your feedback on the following questions:
· Beyond the brake and lamp inspection, what additional systems or items should be inspected as part of a vehicle safety inspection?
· What process should BAR use to verify that the vehicle receiving the safety certification was inspected?
· How does BAR verify that the licensed inspector was the one who performed the safety inspection?
· What is the best way to transition from current brake and lamp station/adjuster licenses to new vehicle safety inspection licenses?
Responses are requested by February 15, 2022, and should be submitted by email to Mathew.Gibson@dca.ca.gov. Thank you for sharing your important feedback.
To learn more about AB 471 implementation efforts, please visit www.bar.ca.gov.
Bureau of Automotive Repair I www.bar.ca.gov
STAY CONNECTED! Follow us on Facebook and Twitter @BARinfo!
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Having dealt with the BAR in the past and even though the BAR was originally conceived as a consumer watchdog entity (they're supposed to be looking out for US), it just appears that they look for ways to have the general public spend more money to justify their positions and salaries. New program, more staffing, higher salaries and raises???
Last edited by tjm3; 02-09-2022 at 03:42 PM.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
The service records are at home, but I do remember seeing a record for what I thought was the valve cover replacement. Maybe it was a head gasket though? I will check when I get home from work.
Member
Carefully Read the https://asktheref.org/Services/Repair-Cost-Waivers
Note sure if you meet the requirements.
- Fail your smog test at a licensed smog test facility. Make sure to keep documentation.
- Spend a minimum of $650 on emissions-related repair costs at a licensed smog repair station (you do not have to repair your vehicle at the same station it was originally tested). The $650 can be a combination of repairs and diagnostics, but regular smog tests do not count towards the amount required. Note: CAP repairs and diagnostics qualify towards the $650.00.
- Have your vehicle re-tested and, if it still fails the test, you may be eligible for the Repair Cost Waiver.
- Make an appointment at a Referee station and bring documentation of two failed smog tests and receipts for money spent on repairs at a licensed smog repair station as well as diagnostics. If you meet the qualifications, you will be granted a waiver that allows you to pass the test without the repairs. Your vehicle must be able to pass smog when your next smog check is due.
Member
Read the disqualifications on that link page. This appears to be a change of ownership smog test so unless the smog check coincides with the 2 year check and the ref chooses to handle it that way, if he even has that option, this may not fly. Worth a try, though.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Ya, this is a change of owner so this doesn't apply to me unfortunately .
Member
A little update! Still hasn't passed smog.
My cats have been tested on another e36 and that car passed so that rules that out. Shop removed head and no major carbon or anything noticeable was seen, no cracks or anything that looked out of place. Head gasket, valve cover, injectors, plugs, cats, o2, fuel pump, fuel filter, smoke tested, fuel pressure tested, tune to reduce timing, and countless other things. Shop doesn't really know what else to do right now, I don't have any cel and the only ones I have had in the past are Evap leak lights. I keep telling them to investigate that but they say there is no vacuum leaks anywhere, but they say the Nox is getting worse. It started at like only 200 above at only 15mph and pass at 25, but now I am failing both and are 1000 plus. No idea what to even do anymore really, the shop says the are trying different fuel combinations to just get it passed. But there is obviously something wrong with the car but Idk what to even have them look at anymore, the owner is pretty stubborn when it comes to investigating things that dont really seem like it would cause it but obviously nothing else has worked so far. I has to be something super weird, I mean the car runs fine and never overheats.
Member
Here are the standard emission charts and the results I have collected, maybe it can help.
Note These charts do not account for the CAT working since your measuring at the tail pipe. So when you see higher HC but you read OK, the CAT may be working hard to correct it.
Member
Tell them to smoke the exhaust to find exhaust manifold leaks and SAP pump/valve leaks.
Attn. NEWBIES: Use the search feature, 98% has already been discussed.
Click the search button, select "search single content type", select the "e36 sub forum" specifically, try the "search titles" then try the "search entire posts".
Member
I can sit here all day, every day, and recommend stuff to try that's fairly simple if you have the equipment and the car is in front you but if you work with shops that might have an attitude of replacing parts saying 'this always works' and don't know why, it then delays the diagnostics. I'm not saying this is happening, but the problem still exists.
You've tried damn near everything and it's not working. It appears the head was removed recently. Was the head measured for minimum thickness? This being an indicator of a possible compression increase. Also, is there anything in the service records for any and all top end work, or any work for that matter with pistons, headwork, valves or CAMS. BMW handles NOx by using internal EGR with cam timing and overlap instead of an EGR valve. I'm assuming that if the head was removed and replaced by a reputable shop then the cam timing should be perfect. If this is true then the issue is elsewhere. It's difficult to completely screw up the valve timing if you have the correct tools but it is possible and also possible more than once. Unfortunately the ECU only keeps track of the cam timing by comparing the intake cam position and the crankshaft position. The position of the exhaust cam is unknown and is a key player in the NOx issue. Some exhaust gas needs remain in the cylinder for the next burn by either closing the exhaust valve early or leaving it open a bit longer for part if the intake stroke. Not sure which method BMW uses but I suspect it's the second. There's two ways to check this: the old method of using a degree wheel or the latest and accurate fad of doing a compression waveform analysis (look it up). The second gives a good visual indication of what's going on in the cylinder at each cycle and allows measurement of several critical cam timing factors. What are you looking for? Out of time cams, mismatched cams, incorrect or substituted cams or even worn cams. I'll admit, this is an extreme scenario but the basic engine parts and operation should be verified and really should have been done first. The gas numbers other than the NOx indicates the engine is running fine. Any air leaks downstream of the exhaust, including the air injection, will enrich the mixture, reduce combustion temps and reduce NOx and it appears everything has been smoke checked. If you get the compression waveform send me copy. Again, this is somewhat extreme but all things already considered, you have an extreme issue .
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
NOx goes up with added O2 in the stream and it doesn't take much. Do as I suggesting to be sure your exhaust manifold isn't letting air into the stream same thing for that SAP valve.
Taking the head off!? Rediculous! They could have put a camera in the cylinder to check for excess carbon. They could have run special cleaner to decarburize the engine. How much have they charged for all this.
Attn. NEWBIES: Use the search feature, 98% has already been discussed.
Click the search button, select "search single content type", select the "e36 sub forum" specifically, try the "search titles" then try the "search entire posts".
Member
The head was measured, that was one of the reasons he took it off in the first place. They re-timed the engine on reassemble because he thought maybe it could have been but still no luck. They did try another 328I ECU and the result was the same. Ill ask about a compression waveform test.
Member
Please know you are not alone on you quest to get you car through the "smog test" saga. My car is a 1994, OBD I, vintage that has and continues to retake multiple attempts to get it to pass. I live above 3500 feet and that does mean no rolling road test but that is the only thing I get to miss in the testing process.
Reading through your posts, one thing stands out. Have you taken the car on an extended drive? To Arizona. I 'm serious. I am planning a trip to state line taking 15 North to 40 East. Fresh gas at Exit 9, quick stop for me and back.
Yes, having the injectors rebuilt is a pain, but this one step is really one of the things that pays dividends. But have you had the intake system smoke tested for leaks? I did not see you list that digignostic test.
Last edited by jr02518; 05-23-2022 at 10:25 PM.
Member
The injectors have been tested in those ultrasonic machines. I have had the car smoke tested by three different shops and all have come back with nothing. They did a block test and a compression test, and fuel pressure test. They checked timing. Only thing I'm not sure they checked was precat in the exhaust, but I know the headers have been removed with the head and they took my cats and put on another car so they have been in the area abunch and assume they would have caught something.
A nice long trip sounds nice honestly. Cars been just sitting for months, either getting worked on or tested, unfortunately the registration expired this may so a long trip isnt a good option.
Member
My exhaust manifold leaked at the weld where the pipe met the manifold, removing the manifold would not reveal that, smoking the exhaust did.
Attn. NEWBIES: Use the search feature, 98% has already been discussed.
Click the search button, select "search single content type", select the "e36 sub forum" specifically, try the "search titles" then try the "search entire posts".
Member
Let me know if you want to sell it. Is it a manual transmission?
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Just thought I would update.
The car passed apparently with flying colors. When I go and pick it up I will get a better idea of what he did, but from what he told me on the phone is that he added a timing box and manually adjusted the timing while on the dyno. He also said that it would be repeatable and I think I could take it to any smog shop, but I am unsure if this will effect a tune or power output. If he has a smog sheet printout I will post the numbers but I was able to finally register the car!
Member
Nice. For all of our future reference it would be nice to know what the original timing value was and then what it was adjusted to in order to get the flying color pass.
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