It Lives! Project thread for Bronzit '87 325is

[82eye]

Oh shit, you're right. I see it now. P/N 11311717398, yes? Q400 says it's my turn lol

In other news, the brake pedal is all of a sudden being squishy. Guess we'll start with bleeding the system and assume we'll have to throw at least a couple parts at it too.

they don't make stamped gears anymore. if you order one it should always be a sintered gear that shows up.

[Clio320i]

All right I'm ordering it. Thank you, 82eye!

In other news, we got a cow catcher. Repo from an outfit in Ukraine (aaaaahh Ukraine...!!). And 3D printed brackets from an outfit in Canada. Fitment was problematic, what a surprise! The deal was this: ok so there's a steel bar that goes along the top, with studs in it, it appears that the studs are supposed to go through the air dam and the brackets. Well, those studs just aren't long enough to make it through both the air dam and the brackets so we sorta set them in, bolted the side straps on, and zip tied the m'fer. Here's pics, cry with us:

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May whoever kills their E30 with the most zip ties win. I actually love it

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I'm here to tell you that the air dam makes a noticeable difference, which is rad, and also, it's starting to look like a real car (?). Certainly feels like one. I drove the living daylights out of it tonight and wow. What a car, I swear

[Clio320i]

New day, new problems. This car obviously thinks we are just made of money lol

I was really really hoping to be spared the pain of digging into the brakes for at least a couple months, but as luck would have it, the brakes went tits the other day. We bled them and it was better... for like a minute. Then they proceeded to get quite a bit worse quickly, soft pedal pressure and it goes to the floor, and currently the only way to stop the car is to stomp fast repeatedly. So a master cylinder is on the way and we'll replace that probably this weekend. Then I figure the brake soft lines will probably respond to that by failing spectacularly - seems logical, right? Especially since I got an E23 master cylinder.

But there is good news also:

We're going to have the windshield replaced soon (once the glass shop gets the actual glass down here from Tacoma), and insurance is covering it. Currently it's like looking through a sheet of glitter when the sun is low. Zillions of tiny chips and some big ones too.

The title came in the mail! So now it's *really* official.

We somehow managed to get all of the overhead check panel lights to go off. Oil and license plate light were the main persistent ones. Q400 found the oil sensor wire unplugged and just plugged it back in, and we cleaned up the contacts for the left license plate light and spun the bulb and it was fine. Kind of nice to have nothing nagging us up there!

Oh and we replaced the taillight seals. There was no seal at all on the right one and the left was really dried up and crusty. I do NOT want to get into another trunk rust situation like I have in the E21!

I am actually kind of looking forward to tearing into the timing belt scene yet again, in order to replace that stamped lower gear. Last time - only 1600 miles or so after we did it the first time - the coolant came out really dirty. I ran hose water through the radiator but this time I might do the block too. Either way it'll be good to refresh most/all of it yet again.

Question: we don't have a fan shroud. How big a deal is that? The E21's M10 doesn't have one and doesn't seem to care but it has a 2002 aluminum radiator...

[Clio320i]

more car parts in the mail YEY

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don’t tell my wife lol

[Clio320i]

more car parts in the mail YEY

C3A29716-B6AF-45CE-A578-1A64E23BFBAE.jpg

don’t tell my wife lol

ok the wife has found out, I think it’s ok, I’m not sleeping on the couch tonight anyway

This is a trip ok, check it out. I got this E30 brake master upgrade kit from ECS. I think FCP offers the same thing. It comes with an ATE E32 master cylinder which is 25mm as opposed to the original 19. And it comes with a hard line of 12mm because apparently you need to replace one of the lines but not the i other(?)

Anyway we got in there and the existing lines threaded right into the new E32 master. Weird but cool? We buttoned it all up and flushed the whole system (omg amazing squirt of air at one point out of the RF bleeder!) and holy toledo we have really great brakes now!


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[Clio320i]

Ok I am answering my own question above. Here's the deal: assuming your E30 came with a 2-outlet brake master cylinder, you ONLY need to replace the hard line if your car is an M3. All other 2-outlet master cylinders can take the E32 master cylinder without modification. Here's a solid write up I found about the M3 situation, thank you Gustave: http://e30sport.net/installs/installs-1/25mc/25mc.htm

Currently it appears a direct replacement MC for our car is really expensive. OEM BMW one is upwards of $500, ATE one is $385, and the only other option is the URO one which I prefer to avoid. I imagine this one could work, though it says it's for models up to 5/87, but it's backordered at ECS and Turner. So, why not use an E32 MC for like $170? I went with the info I encountered on both ECS's and Turner's sites - neither makes it clear that the extra hard line is only needed for the M3 (as Gustave explains in the link above). So assuming they were correct I went ahead and ordered both, and didn't need the line.

Is the larger MC noticeably different? Is it actually an upgrade? Maybe.. I can't say. Q400 and I have both driven the car and stomped on the brakes and agree that it's definitely a firmer pedal than before (before the original MC crapped out), and there seems to be less pedal travel before you get to the hard part, and the hard part is harder. And I would say it does seem like there could be more grab in the rears (what did I just say?) and that the car doesn't pitch forward as much with hard braking, but I could be making that up. Also the car had the grossest, blackest brake fluid in it and I imagine that master cylinder was starting to go some time ago - we did actually notice that when stopped and holding the car with the brake pedal (on a hill, say), the pedal would start to smush down a little, just barely, but it was noticeable. That was probably the MC starting to go.

Anyway since this is a street car (for now...) and we haven't touched any of the rest of the brake system, I figure the most important thing for us is that we know the car in order to drive it well. Small differences in pedal feel don't matter as much as our experience, especially since we don't even know how it was supposed to be to begin with. Replacing the brake fluid entirely probably made a bigger difference than the diameter of the MC.

[URO Parts]

Is the larger MC noticeably different? Is it actually an upgrade? Maybe.. I can't say. Q400 and I have both driven the car and stomped on the brakes and agree that it's definitely a firmer pedal than before (before the original MC crapped out), and there seems to be less pedal travel before you get to the hard part, and the hard part is harder. And I would say it does seem like there could be more grab in the rears (what did I just say?) and that the car doesn't pitch forward as much with hard braking, but I could be making that up. Anyway since this is a street car (for now...) and we haven't touched any of the rest of the brake system,

Consider the relationship between MC piston surface area vs total caliper piston surface area. To maintain the same hydraulic advantage ratio, if the MC piston diameter is increased, you'd need to increase the caliper piston surface area by the same percentage to maintain the same hydraulic ratio. If you increase the diameter of the MC piston but don't increase the caliper piston diameter, you've reduced the PSI delivered to the calipers for the same foot force on the pedal. The only difference is shorter brake pedal travel. If you want more brake fluid pressure at the caliper (for more stopping power), you want to use a MC with a smaller piston diameter. But you can't take this too far, as a smaller MC means more pedal stroke, and the total stroke is limited by the firewall, etc. That's why non-power brake systems have smaller-diameter MC pistons than power brake MC's. The booster assistance allows for a larger MC for the same foot pressure on the pedal.

The reason your car doesn't pitch forward as much is because you're not applying as much braking force as before, which might not be what you're looking for.

Hope that helps!

[Q400]

the thread title is It Lives but now the car is fully Alive. Clio320i and l just parked it after a 700 mile trip on Oregon coast range back roads. the car behaved beautifully at all times: powerful, smooth, quiet, efficient (23mpg!) and absolutely planted to the road. we celebrated the odometer turning 255,000 at 100mph �� just a joy to drive, and shows that all our hard work paid off. including, l might add, 2 timing belt teardowns in 2 days! and the kicker is, after 14 hours in the seats over the last 2 days l feel ready to climb back in! recaros+sheepskins=the most comfortable car seats imaginable.

[Q400]

some very satisfying moments passing slower traffic, but we noticed that more people than usual pulled over for us. maybe they could see how much fun we were having and got out of the way so we could carry on

[Clio320i]

some very satisfying moments passing slower traffic, but we noticed that more people than usual pulled over for us. maybe they could see how much fun we were having and got out of the way so we could carry on

It's the yellow hi-beams 100%

Second everything Q400 said. How is a 35-year-old car the most comfortable car in the world and also a total beast? And this thing is totally stock, aside from the pretty worn steering and suspension bushings! Speaking of that, after all this we now know what we want the car to feel like, handling-wise. A little stiffer, a little tighter, a little less squishy would be very nice. So we have started formulating some plans around that.

Also we did all this with a new sintered lower timing/intermediate shaft gear Thank you again 83eye, it was really nice to have that be Not A Thing to worry about.


Here's a few pics -

Fun roads in Columbia county northwestern OR (they're all wonderful)

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Gorgeous views and vignettes on 101 - here just north of Florence, OR:

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Obligatory Mary's Peak shot looking to the east - we're above the clouds here Found some snow up there too!

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On the way back down? Or somewhere in the vicinity. Glorious

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This car is so amazingly capable, of anything! This was some very spirited driving, and *Someone* may have done a burnout at one point (!!) but somehow it was still pretty good fuel economy and I can't tell you how much we love this car. Q400 has some serious driving brass and I'm learning how to trust the machine a little more because of that

Next up! Refinements to handling and perhaps more attention to braking system as URO Parts has given some great info above (will respond to that soon). Really appreciate everyone's input and we can't wait to keep driving the daylights out of this absolutely fantastic car.

[Q400]

so probably next up is some kind of suspension work, it seems all original. we want to do bushings first, then any steering parts that need to be replaced, then springs and struts. does anyone have thoughts about a strut tower brace?

[dj Roo]

I just did the full suspension rebuild on my 325is. All OEM bushings except the differential and rear subframe mounts. Got new H&R sport springs to drop it ~1” and new Bilstien B8 shocks. Everything else was OEM, away bar links & bushings, spring pads, control arms, trailing arm bushings, etc. Also rebuilt the power steering pump and got a rebuilt steering rack with all new reservoir and hoses since my power steering system was blown out.

It was a lot of work but it desperately needed the refresh. And what a difference it made. The new steering components got the steering tight and smooth again. The ride was greatly improved since the sport springs are not aggressive but all the wallowing and squishiness is gone from the worn out bushings and shocks.

My project was big and aggressive but I wanted to get it all done quickly and all at once since some of the work required removing things, so why not do that but while I’m in there.

Any improvements and refresh you can do will benefit especially on a car this old.




dj Roo
‘87 325is, ‘06 Z4

[Clio320i]

dj that’s awesome. Sounds like pretty close to what we want to do! We have Eurometric urethane bushings on our E21 so we were thinking of going a similar route here as well.

oh and shifter bushings etc. when it’s in 5th the knob is where it should be for 3rd lol


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[Clio320i]

Whoa, the pic just showed up - what is that contraption you have the car lifted up with?? Never seen such a thing!


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[dj Roo]

It’s the Quick Jacks hydraulic lift. They are heavy and he’ll to move around, but they lift the car evenly and lock in place. So great for brake jobs or anything else when you’re taking the wheels off.


dj Roo
‘87 325is, ‘06 Z4

[leyeda]

Nice e30! I’m digging the color too. Bronzit is such a nice color when it’s cleaned up and polished.

[Q400]

300 mile trip to Eugene today so Clio320i and a friend could geek out about native plants. Car was an angel the whole time; the oil light came on at 1/2 quart low, just as it should.

[Clio320i]

This car, I swear, has a silly sense of humor. Took it on a 700+ mile road trip last weekend and of course the day *after* I really could have benefitted from having functional cruise control, we somehow got cruise to work with a stalk and ECU from an ‘85 we found in the local boneyard.

The funny part is this: it doesn’t work the way (we think?) it’s supposed to. But it does work!

Push forward for ~3 seconds: set speed
Double tap forward: also set speed
Single tap forward: reduce speed by one increment
Hold forward: accelerate
Single tap backward: resume last set speed
Any movement up or down: turns it off

Seems fine? Certainly not what I’ve read from others about how it should work (anyone have an ‘87 owners manual??)

The other hilarious feature is that when accelerating (either by holding the stalk forward or using the resume function), it lurches in increments most of the time and we can’t stop laughing about it. I wonder what other drivers think of this. And then sometimes it is smooth!


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[Q400]

We refer to the car's sense of humor as "Vaterwitze" German(ish) for "dad jokes". another VW:on that road trip it barfed a couple pints of gear oil at the Redmond airport. Upon checking, after Clio went to great lengths, including going to a jiffy lube type place to be told "there's oil on the transmission ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ " the transmission was full. Good one, car!

[Clio320i]

Oh yeah that was a good one. I rolled up at jiffy lube type place and asked if they might just check and fill the transmission, thinking, they have a pit, it’ll be easier than me doing this in some parking lot without a jack and hot exhaust. They obliged, but then said “there’s oil on everything” (um, I know) and then “we can’t check the trans fluid because it’s sealed” (no it’s not I personally drained and filled this 5 months ago), then, “it’s seized, they do that” (no it’s not just hit it with a dead blow hammer a couple times), then “if it doesn’t come loose with just my hand, we don’t open it” (ok ok I get it, corporate rules), and finally “sorry ma’am”.

I of course thanked them for their efforts and proceeded to find a safe place to deal with it myself, hot exhaust and lack of jack/stands be damned. Opened the fill plug and what do you know? more oil came out - of the fill plug. At that point I cleaned the plug and threaded it back in and proceeded.

Why would a transmission just kinda randomly puke out several ounces of oil? Overfilled? If so, why would it go like 4,000 miles and then just do that? Anyway fixing the trans oil leak(s) is next on the list.


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[Clio320i]

Oh and here’s my one cool drama lighting glamour pic from that trip. This is right outside of Spray, Oregon



And obligatory post-trip bugs-on-headlights back at home (I am never washing this tshirt!):




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[Clio320i]

Update time just for the record.

We took it to a local shop to have the shifter bushings replaced as well as transmission seals and control arm bushings. That was a good idea because we did NOT want to do that work. And wow, yes, everyone who says replacing shifter bushings is wonderful is indeed correct!! You can tell what gear it's in now!

We also have since replaced all four brake rotors, all brake pads, and the ebrake shoes. Those components weren't horribly worn, but we are planning on doing a HPDE class next month so we wanted them all perfect. Removing one of the front rotors proved a challenge. Q400 ended up using a dremel to gouge out the set screw head along with a good chunk of the surrounding rotor, and even then the rest of the damn set screw still refused to turn, so he ground that flush with the hub. No more set screw on that wheel, o well.

Also we got 15mm spacers and a set of ix basketweaves and tires. It is interesting! The steering feels a bit weird now and I'm not sure if it's the tires which are 195/55/15 - we didn't want to go wider with manual steering (we're not quite into the idea of making the power steering work) - or if the steering rack itself is starting to go tits.

Man, researching E30 stuff is cray. Zillions of possibilities and at least that many opinions. Probably some kind of steering rack upgrade is in order, likely one of the three E36 options.

Speaking of research, after a great deal of it we finally settled on a suspension setup: Koni yellows and Vogtland springs. So those are on order and may or may not get installed before the E30 picnic next weekend.

What else what else... Oh, it's still making a sound that I find odd. No one else seems to care tho. My friend at a car meet said "oh they all make weird sounds." Anyway, out of an abundance of anal-ness and because the mechanic had wondered about the timing (plus I kinda screwed up the order of operations last time we were in timing belt territory when we replaced that intermediate shaft gear), we checked it. The belt looks perfect, riding right in the middle, nothing rubbing, and the timing marks are lined up absolutely perfectly. It's nice to have peace of mind

[Q400]

suspension day! well two days. as Clio said, we got Koni yellows, Vogtland sport springs, new upper mounts front and back and assorted other parts. started on the front as we knew it would be the hardest and it was, damn. the front struts were put on in Munich in 1987! lots of searching for a big ass pipe wrench to get the gland nuts off, but we got there. we watched videos by NogaragE30 on youtube, he has some great tips. the rears were a breeze comparatively, just had to do a run to the store for new lower mounting bolts. found one rear spring had fully broken!

the car continues to surprise us; despite years of neglect, things come apart relatively easily with some PB blaster (Clio's signature perfume) and a breaker bar.

the verdict: we loved the car before, with tired old parts. we are absolutely over the moon now! l drove first and could tell from the first turn that things were different. Clio could tell from the passenger seat too. it's tight and firm with no trace of harshness. l found myself seeking out potholes. Clio drove next and announced that she was way satisfied after about 1/4 mile. sadly she did not mean that she was done driving.

we didn't adjust the strut damping at all but we probably will. lowered the car about 1.25", exactly what we wanted.

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[Q400]

oh and as to the noise Clio mentioned above, we got some E30 mechanics to listen to it at the e30 picnic (wonderful time btw, go if you can) and the consensus was that the timing belt is too tight and we need to back the tensioner off a bit. super fun to see all these dudes w a screwdriver up to their ear leaning over the car and revving it. what e30 life is all about!

[Clio320i]

Finally that goddamn high-pitched screamy sound is gone!

The other day we got in there one more freakin time and backed off the tension on the timing belt by pushing the spring in (compressing it) about 2mm. Sounds lovely now!!

Big thank you to our E30 friends at the picnic.


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