Code 65- Occasionally will crank & not start without some throttle

[Ichomancer]

Hi folks!

Some good news, figured out my phantom drain problems. Turned out to be my first thought, the aftermarket sound system. So now my e39 has some bass again


Unfortunately I have begun noticing some other problems in that time period (surprise)

First one was with the transmission- it just felt really bad. My transmission fluid looks rather dark, no metal shavings apparent though:

atf21-11-13.jpg

With that being said, previous owner used liquimoly toptec atf 1200. I am unfamiliar with this transmission fluid, maybe its naturally darker? The previous owner seemed like the guy to change everything very regularly, you never know though. I've been having trouble finding other pics of it on the internet, if anyone happens to have a photo of the fresh atf 1200 they want to share?

Had an awesome time at this mechanic- he was reading obd2 while I was driving around- had to do full throttle shifts and everything. I must say, it is the first time I really felt VANOS love it. She drives so incredibly smooth.
He ended up resetting my transmission's memory and WOW- feels like a new car. It shifted so sluggishly in low gears at first I could never get good acceleration. Highly recommended for people with used automatic transmissions to try this out.


Now, onto the main topic of this post:
The main issue I was concerned with is exactly as the title says:

On occasions, with no relation to being hot or cold, the car will crank, and will struggle to start without throttle. If it's particularly bad, after throttling the rpms will almost drop to 0 and if they do the car will stall and you'll have to try again. This causes you to have to hold your idle rpms until the car seems stable. That more extreme scenario has only happened twice in the last month or two, whereas the other scenario happens maybe 4 times a week.
When the car starts properly, it does so very nicely.

My initial thought was the idle control valve. It seems like my fuel systems and everything is working quite well. At the mechanics, the only code received was code 65, a camshaft position sensor error. To my knowledge as well, the previous owner had replaced that sensor somewhat recently, likely in the previous 20k-30k km. The mechanic suspects it's a very small vacuum leak on that little box directly off the right side of the engine- can't remember what its called I'm a noob. I've also seen in other threads that previous work can cause timing issues like this. Sometimes when the car starts, it sounds like it has a somewhat rougher idle related to timing issues.

I must say, I'm really starting to fall in love with this car. Taking good care of it is really forcing me to learn a lot more about vehicles, which is something I've always wanted to do.
I suppose I should also share my first photo of it with you! Few weeks ago was my first time washing my e39, so fun. Cheers, and drive safe.

IMG_20211105_075515944.jpg
edit: I should mention, 1999 e39 528i (also left hand drive jdm)

[TiesTorN]

those are some ugly rims...

anyway... you're probably losing fuel pressure while the car is sitting. either from injectors or the fuel pump. I've seen 3 cars including mine with those symptoms (struggle to start without throttle) and all of them were losing pressure. but that doesn't necessarily mean that's your problem. it's just my experience.

[Ichomancer]

those are some ugly rims...

anyway... you're probably losing fuel pressure while the car is sitting. either from injectors or the fuel pump. I've seen 3 cars including mine with those symptoms (struggle to start without throttle) and all of them were losing pressure. but that doesn't necessarily mean that's your problem. it's just my experience.

I know, she's new and proper maintenance has to come before the rims..
Good experience, how do you diagnose that?

[TiesTorN]

try cranking immediately after turning off the engine... if it starts perfect every time then you're probably losing pressure when the car sits.

[Ichomancer]

try cranking immediately after turning off the engine... if it starts perfect every time then you're probably losing pressure when the car sits.

Seems to be fine thus far- and I do think you're onto something. Also, that "little box" off the engine near the intake, I believe is the DISA valve. I will try to take a photo of it for next time I post. Going to get a smoke test.
Would certainly be easier to get at than the ICV.

Another thing that I notice, is if I have her sitting for a few days she seems to have a greater chance of a smooth start than if I had say, just started it again after grocery shopping and the engine is warm. To my knowledge, this would make lots of sense with a vacuum leak theory, as everything would have had time to contract as the engine cools and the leak would be smaller.

[TiesTorN]

Another thing that I notice, is if I have her sitting for a few days she seems to have a greater chance of a smooth start than if I had say, just started it again after grocery shopping and the engine is warm.

had exactly the same problem. your injectors need replacing.

[E39 Newbie]

I use LiquiMoly 1200 in my E39 and E46. It meets BMW's specifications. It is not bright red like some fluids, it's more a clear brownish-red, if that makes any sense. Regardless, your trans fluid is very dark. Perhaps give it a couple of trans services over 3K or 4K miles. Just to clear out some of the gunk.

Definitely want a smoke test. The DISA valve, where it attaches to the intake, is prone to leak after a number of years.

Make sure the cam sensor was a genuine BMW or OEM. If it's a brand X, replace it. Flaky cam sensor can cause extended cranking and throw a code. My E46 had a similar issue.

Put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail, check the FP at idle and when revving the engine. Should be very stable at roughly 50 psi. If it isn't, or bounces around, replace the fuel pressure regulator, try again and if it's still doing it, the pump. After running, leave gauge on and let car sit for a while. Pressure should maintain at about 50 for hours or even days. If it doesn't, replace the pump.

Bad injectors are a possibility, but a failing one often results in a misfire. Run a full scan and see if you have misfire codes.

[Ichomancer]

I use LiquiMoly 1200 in my E39 and E46. It meets BMW's specifications. It is not bright red like some fluids, it's more a clear brownish-red, if that makes any sense. Regardless, your trans fluid is very dark. Perhaps give it a couple of trans services over 3K or 4K miles. Just to clear out some of the gunk.

Definitely want a smoke test. The DISA valve, where it attaches to the intake, is prone to leak after a number of years.

Make sure the cam sensor was a genuine BMW or OEM. If it's a brand X, replace it. Flaky cam sensor can cause extended cranking and throw a code. My E46 had a similar issue.

Put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail, check the FP at idle and when revving the engine. Should be very stable at roughly 50 psi. If it isn't, or bounces around, replace the fuel pressure regulator, try again and if it's still doing it, the pump. After running, leave gauge on and let car sit for a while. Pressure should maintain at about 50 for hours or even days. If it doesn't, replace the pump.

Bad injectors are a possibility, but a failing one often results in a misfire. Run a full scan and see if you have misfire codes.

Really great advice mate, thank you! I assume by rail you mean somewhere on the fuel rail? This is something I haven't done before, but I'm going to investigate this for sure.

I know my cam sensor was replaced by previous owner, I will have to check if it's OEM or not.

In terms of Codes, only code that has come up thus far is code 65.

I'm going to get my hands on some Liquimoly soon and start cleaning that transmission.

Another little question; is it normal for these e39's idle RPM to drop down a few hundred RPM every few second before going back up? I know a lot of cars cold start that way, but I'm wondering if it could be related to this issue in some way.

[E39 Newbie]

Yes, the fuel rail. Take the cover off of the "center" of the engine and you'll see the fuel rail, along with the connectors for the O2 sensors. There's a Schrader valve on the rail. The fuel pressure gauge will go there.

If the cam sensor is genuine BMW it will have the BMW logo stamped on the top. If it looks like something has been ground or scraped off, then it's most likely OEM, i.e. made by the same manufacturer but they have to grind off the BMW logo before they sell it. If it has nothing it's a Brand X.

It is NOT normal for the RPMs to "hunt" during a cold start. Mine runs a bit rough for 10 or 15 seconds when cold if it hasn't been started for a few weeks. This behavior could be cam sensor, or perhaps a small vacuum leak. Don't forget the smoke test.

If your code 65 won't clear, then you should try replacing the cam sensor regardless. Oh, and don't forget the o-ring like the PO of my E46 did.

[Ichomancer]

Yes, the fuel rail. Take the cover off of the "center" of the engine and you'll see the fuel rail, along with the connectors for the O2 sensors. There's a Schrader valve on the rail. The fuel pressure gauge will go there.

If the cam sensor is genuine BMW it will have the BMW logo stamped on the top. If it looks like something has been ground or scraped off, then it's most likely OEM, i.e. made by the same manufacturer but they have to grind off the BMW logo before they sell it. If it has nothing it's a Brand X.

It is NOT normal for the RPMs to "hunt" during a cold start. Mine runs a bit rough for 10 or 15 seconds when cold if it hasn't been started for a few weeks. This behavior could be cam sensor, or perhaps a small vacuum leak. Don't forget the smoke test.

If your code 65 won't clear, then you should try replacing the cam sensor regardless. Oh, and don't forget the o-ring like the PO of my E46 did.

Thank you! I'm excited to start getting into things. Good to know the RPM variations aren't normal- I didn't think they were. I can hear a sound that seems like the timing chain hitting the cover on the top. Something I also want to look into ASAP.

It will be fun to locate the cam sensor lol

[E39 Newbie]

Thank you! I'm excited to start getting into things. Good to know the RPM variations aren't normal- I didn't think they were. I can hear a sound that seems like the timing chain hitting the cover on the top. Something I also want to look into ASAP.

It will be fun to locate the cam sensor lol

The intake cam sensor is on the left side of the engine, in the front. It's tucked behind the VANOS hose where it connects to the VANOS solenoid. You may need to disconnect the hose and remove the solenoid. So, don't forget you'll need new crush washers when you reinstall the hose.

Failing VANOS has been described as a rattle similar to marbles in a coffee can. The problem is that nobody has coffee cans anymore, so that comparison is worthless for young people. Regardless, if a similar noise is coming from the top front of the engine you'll need to rebuild your VANOS. It's pretty simple, but does require a decent vise, a large socket and a pretty strong impact gun.

[Ichomancer]

Hmm interesting, I didn't actually consider that yet because she has no problem going fast. definitely fits the description. I really want to learn how to do this as VANOS is quite fascinating to me and I'm still very novice at wrenching. With that being said, definitely nervous as it's a step up from what I've done in the past.
Would faults in the VANOS be related to the dip in RPMS while idling? The sound happens exactly as the rpms dip, so acoustically it seems highly correlated.

Thanks again for the car knowledge

[E39 Newbie]

Hmm interesting, I didn't actually consider that yet because she has no problem going fast. definitely fits the description. I really want to learn how to do this as VANOS is quite fascinating to me and I'm still very novice at wrenching. With that being said, definitely nervous as it's a step up from what I've done in the past.
Would faults in the VANOS be related to the dip in RPMS while idling? The sound happens exactly as the rpms dip, so acoustically it seems highly correlated.

Thanks again for the car knowledge

Bad VANOS can affect idle, but I don't have enough experience to say if it would cause the hunting you're experiencing. I'd say if the two are happening at the same time then it's highly likely the two are related. Regardless it sounds as if you'll need a rebuild.

Kits are available on eBay and Amazon. Get the complete kit, with the new ring things and new Torrington bearings, not the one with just the o-rings. The VANOS unit is easy to access, and can be removed/replaced without having to retime the engine. The only tricky thing about removal is the little screws behind the plastic caps (this will make more sense once you open it up). Those screws are left-hand threads. Loads of people forget that and screw up the head of the screw or worse. Once it's off, you can secure it in a good vise and use a strong impact gun and unscrew the round things. It may take a bit, because they'll be on there really tight. Once unscrewed the rest is pretty intuitive. '50s Kid has a great video on the rebuild.

https://youtu.be/0eUVF6OLFFg

[TiesTorN]

you're wasting your time... it's your injectors...

[E39 Newbie]

you're wasting your time... it's your injectors...

It's possible, but injectors don't make a "marble-in-a-coffee-can" rattle.

[TiesTorN]

It's possible, but injectors don't make a "marble-in-a-coffee-can" rattle.

I'm talking about his starting problems.

that rattle is smth else.

[E39 Newbie]

I'm talking about your starting problems.

that rattle is smth else.

Gotcha! There's probably more than one problem going on here.

[Ichomancer]

I'm talking about your starting problems.

that rattle is smth else.

Gotcha! There's probably more than one problem going on here.

Yeah I agree guys. What would be done to diagnose between injectors and a vacuum leak? Obviously a smoke test for the vacuum leak, but is there something I should do beforehand to confirm if the injectors have anything to do with this?

I'm excited to tell you guys what the diagnosis turns into. I should have a better idea by next weekend.

[E39 Newbie]

Yeah I agree guys. What would be done to diagnose between injectors and a vacuum leak? Obviously a smoke test for the vacuum leak, but is there something I should do beforehand to confirm if the injectors have anything to do with this?

I'm excited to tell you guys what the diagnosis turns into. I should have a better idea by next weekend.

1. Smoke Test - Loads and loads of weird-o problems can be traced to vacuum leaks. So, start here.

2. Fuel Pressure Test - Extended cranking, occasional misfires, oddities when running or idling, can often be traced to bad fuel pressure. It should be 50psi at the rail, should not vary much, if any, when increasing RPM. The fuel pressure should maintain for several hours, at least, after engine shutoff. If pressure is low, or fluctuates, first replace the fuel filter. Sometimes that's the problem. But most likely you'll need to replace the fuel pump.

3. Scan for misfires - I've never seen all the injectors in an engine fail at once. Most of the time you can use the scan tool and isolate a misfire to a cylinder or two. If you can do this, first swap the coil with a functional cylinder and retest. If the misfire follows the coil - bad coil. If not, replace coils and swap injector with functional cylinder. If the misfire follows the injector - bad injector.

4. At this point, if it still doesn't start properly, you can try having the injectors cleaned. I've not had to do that. My E46 has 190K miles, and my E39 has 160K miles and both, AFAIK, are on the original injectors. I've never cleaned them. I toss in a can of Liquii-Moly injector cleaner from time to time.

5. Address the VANOS rattle. I've read reports that bad VANOS will affect idle quality. If it's rattling then it certainly needs attention.

IMO, that's the way I'd approach it.

[Ichomancer]

1. Smoke Test - Loads and loads of weird-o problems can be traced to vacuum leaks. So, start here.

2. Fuel Pressure Test - Extended cranking, occasional misfires, oddities when running or idling, can often be traced to bad fuel pressure. It should be 50psi at the rail, should not vary much, if any, when increasing RPM. The fuel pressure should maintain for several hours, at least, after engine shutoff. If pressure is low, or fluctuates, first replace the fuel filter. Sometimes that's the problem. But most likely you'll need to replace the fuel pump.

3. Scan for misfires - I've never seen all the injectors in an engine fail at once. Most of the time you can use the scan tool and isolate a misfire to a cylinder or two. If you can do this, first swap the coil with a functional cylinder and retest. If the misfire follows the coil - bad coil. If not, replace coils and swap injector with functional cylinder. If the misfire follows the injector - bad injector.

4. At this point, if it still doesn't start properly, you can try having the injectors cleaned. I've not had to do that. My E46 has 190K miles, and my E39 has 160K miles and both, AFAIK, are on the original injectors. I've never cleaned them. I toss in a can of Liquii-Moly injector cleaner from time to time.

5. Address the VANOS rattle. I've read reports that bad VANOS will affect idle quality. If it's rattling then it certainly needs attention.

IMO, that's the way I'd approach it.

That's a great approach, and I really appreciate all this excellent advice you've shared with me. I don't think e39newbie is a very fitting name

Have not had any misfires come up in OBD2 scans. I assume if I were to have one, the code would stay until cleared correct? To my knowledge I've never had a misfire before, so I don't know what to look out for when driving.

I definitely have oddities when idling/rolling in low gear. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a bit of a combination between a VANOS problem and a Vacuum leak. Hopefully not too much to fix- I don't think I'll have time to do all the mechanical work myself unless I get a little break coming up soon.

Do timing chains ever make that sort of noise? I've read that driving with VANOS problems is generally not too risky for the rest of your engine health- but I would imagine having a timing chain snap could cause all kinds of exciting problems..

Thanks again, I'm still a noob with this car so it's very exciting for me to learn more about it.

[Ichomancer]

Smoke testing today, stay tuned for an update

[Ichomancer]

So one part of this problem came from something that I really should have investigated further.

One problem was that the sparkplugs weren't installed properly. Apparently these ones have a washer which needs to be "crushed" in and therefor weren't maintaining a proper contact. She purrs very nicely now

[Ichomancer]

While the sparkplug fix certainly got her running nicer- the problem still hasn't been resolved.

Alright, here's for some results:

Fuel pressure test is good.

Smoke test found leak at the bottom back of the intake on the drivers side. Couldn't find an accurate diagram though. Plugged with a rubber cap for now.

Now throws codes 65 for Camshaft Position Sensor Inlet & 203 for 02 Bank 2 Control Limit.
Hmmm...

Could this simply be the Cam Position Sensor and I'm just a noob and don't know what misfiring feels like? This seems like all the symptoms of a failed CPS now that I think about it and do some more research.

Yikes. How dangerous for the engine is that? My last car never had this sort of issue so it's unfamiliar grounds for me. Going to get that replaced ASAP

[E39 Newbie]

While the sparkplug fix certainly got her running nicer- the problem still hasn't been resolved.

Alright, here's for some results:

Fuel pressure test is good.

Smoke test found leak at the bottom back of the intake on the drivers side. Couldn't find an accurate diagram though. Plugged with a rubber cap for now.

Now throws codes 65 for Camshaft Position Sensor Inlet & 203 for 02 Bank 2 Control Limit.
Hmmm...

Could this simply be the Cam Position Sensor and I'm just a noob and don't know what misfiring feels like? This seems like all the symptoms of a failed CPS now that I think about it and do some more research.

Yikes. How dangerous for the engine is that? My last car never had this sort of issue so it's unfamiliar grounds for me. Going to get that replaced ASAP

Nice find on the plugs. Who knew the previous wrench had no idea how to torque down a plug. Sometimes it's the simplest things...

There is an unused nipple at the back of the intake, driver side. It's covered with a rubber cap which likes to get brittle and fall off. That happened to me when reinstalling the intake.

Somebody can correct me, but I think the CPS is only used for VANOS reference. I don't think it really hurts the engine to run it with a bad sensor, at least in the short term.

[Ichomancer]

Nice find on the plugs. Who knew the previous wrench had no idea how to torque down a plug. Sometimes it's the simplest things...

There is an unused nipple at the back of the intake, driver side. It's covered with a rubber cap which likes to get brittle and fall off. That happened to me when reinstalling the intake.

Somebody can correct me, but I think the CPS is only used for VANOS reference. I don't think it really hurts the engine to run it with a bad sensor, at least in the short term.

Thanks! I had no clue, but was happy to learn that about the plugs.

That unused nipple sounds exactly like what we were looking at. Makes a lot of sense too- as it kind of seems like it should go somewhere which is why we were so confused about all the diagrams.

If CPS is used for VANOS reference could maybe correlate with the VANOS/timing-chain sound. Just a theory though.

I would be very happy if CPS replacement fixed it all. I'm also very inexperienced with misfires and I'm wondering if I was- are they very very quick (kind of what I imagined) or does the rumble last a second or two (what I'm experiencing).
I'd imagine it feels like a loss of power- which I definitely feel - almost like a laggy feeling.