Common E39 issues over 100K?

[ilyap]

I hope this is the right forum to post this question. I have since original post found more information on comparisons, but still curious to hear from those who have experienced both, E39 M62/S62 and F10 N63/S63 with M suspensions to provide some guidance.

I have only owned 3-series, e36 and e46, up to now, but want to get something bigger for next several years, but provides enjoyment as did ZHP for more than a decade. I already have another family car, so my next BMW is mostly for fun weekend and errand outings, not daily driver. I would prefer tighter suspension that comes with M package, and something more powerful than my ZHP. I have always loved how E39 drives, but for now I'd only consider either M5 or 540 M. I am being told by local BMW specialists that F10 series is a much better way to go as far as reliability goes. More specifically, they point to a lot of problems with timing chains, frequent radiator issues and surprising oil seepages on E39 M5 models once they cross 100K. Would love your input on experiences you guys have had on older E39s. I noticed the prices on E39 and F10 for similar mileage M5 is not that far apart. E39 M5s have gone up in value.

[edjack]

The E39 M5 has its own set of foibles. Join the E39 M5 forum for specifics.

No E39, six or 8, has a timing belt. All are chain-driven. The M5 engine has a dual-row chain, and is more robust than that of the 540. Run away from those mechanics who say the cars have a timing belt; they are not BMW specialists, and must be avoided!

All older BMWs develop oil leaks.

Drive an example of each model to determine which is best for you. Note that the E39 is fast becoming a classic. Some say it's the last real 5-series sport sedan.

[StephenVA]

Everything you want to know about E39 is right here https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...DIY-Check-here!)
Note: ANY 20 year old BMW is going to need work. Are going down the DIY path or paying some one (DIFM)? Once that question is answered the posters can steer you to a few suggestions on Model and years to search for

[CPHES]

An e39 is very different from a f10. But, you seem to need more info on what choices you have in e39 land. How fast you go, depends on how much you spend. An in-line 6 car ( 528i, 525i, 530i ) is going to be the lowest entry cost, and likely lowest running costs. A 540i (v8 ) is the next tier. A M5 will set you back the most. Let us know what you are looking to spend, and we can help. For all of the above, being a good DIY will be quite helpful.

[GZilla]

I have always loved how E39 drives, but I am being told by local mechanics that F10 series is a much better way to go as far as reliability goes. More specifically, they point to a lot of problems with timing belt, radiator and oil leakages on E39 M5 models once they cross 100K. Would love your input on experiences you guys have had on older E39s. I noticed the prices on E39 and F10 for similar mileage M5 is not substantially that different.

As far as personal driving preference, while power is a factor, I love the handling and responsiveness that older BMWs have to offer. I haven't test driven F10 in a while, so I'll make sure to do so soon.

Your local mechanics are trying to persuade you to buy the more problematic and complicated F10 so you would give them business and more money. Take a look at the F10’s N63 engine removed from the body and compare it to any of the E39’s engine variants.

There’s always going to be someone faster, and the new BMWs do not have that old BMW handling and feeling, or even the old one’s good looks. E39 is more simple, handles better, smells better, and is the pinnacle of the 5 series.

Your choice. At least you’re not looking at E60s, those things are hideous and aged rather poorly.

[BAILONG]

gonna vote for E39 for sure.

try to wonder, you have cars from 2000-ish but it maintained well, run well, and ofc looks well, its a big pride to be "road neck-breaker" when people amaze at classic stuff but looks so clean and fresh.

Beside that if you talk about the road perform isnt apple to apple comparing to F10, F10 maybe have better modern technology, but ofc with its problem as well since everything computerized.

[StephenVA]

It is always a question of $$. Do you want to feel the sting of depreciation or the expense of what it would take to bring back a car that had it's basic maintenance delayed until you purchased it? There is a ton of cars on the market that will fit into either camp.

Example a newer M5 has lost 50% of its value at 5 years (that is $75K) a used M5 E39 for example at 100k will need approx $5K worth of parts +labor to bring it back to baseline (Depending on mileage and previous owner's attention) See this spreadsheet on a dad owner and inherited M5 needs. The second owner kept Dad's car and brought it back from years of neglect and deferred maintenance woes. Not for the faint hearted looking for a cheap M5.

On a 6 cyl car, the costs are different but a lot of the needs are the same: Cooling system, Brake System, engine reseal, body refurbishing, interior detail and wear parts replaced, and so on. Attached is my own wagon for example.

These two sheet will get you an idea of what it really takes to bring a car back to baseline completely. The other option open is to drive and repair as needed. That way you get to use AAA towing services!

[ilyap]

Thank you for your responses. First of all, I should apologize for not having enough clarity in my original post. I wrote it out quickly in between meetings and failed to be more specific. I did mean timing chain and it was more in the context of BMW E39 M5 mechanical woes more than any other E39. I spoke with 2 premier BMW shops in Atlanta area and both have pointed to E39 M5 issues that are quite labor intensive and costly. I'll update the above post to reflect that. Given my family and work commitments, I just don't have the time or energy to upkeep my BMW DYI. I am already thinking of restoring my ZHP and that's causing me headaches. Maybe one day when kids a bit older. $ is always a factor, but not the primary driver of my decision making.

Given my preference for tighter/stiffer suspensions , if I were to find an E39, I'd go for a 540 M sport package or M5. These are clearly tough to find with lower mileage ( sub 100K) or those in immaculate condition. I don't think mechanics are intentionally being deceiving, but certainly post-hoc reasoning may apply. Since E39s are older they might just be seeing far more of them due to higher mileage.

I am definitely going to stay away from E60s or F90s. I like my cars used and I like to keep them for a long time. I've only had 4 cars in last 20+ years, so I make my decisions carefully. If I had a bigger garage I might buy an extra one, but my Audi Q7 serves as a family car. I probably should drive a few more F10 N63 or S63 cars to get a feel for it. I found quite a few M5 specific forums that talk more about F10 vs E39 experiences and I know what to look for. I agree that E39 is a classic, but I am still willing to give F10 a chance

[ilyap]

It is always a question of $$. Do you want to feel the sting of depreciation or the expense of what it would take to bring back a car that had it's basic maintenance delayed until you purchased it? There is a ton of cars on the market that will fit into either camp.

Example a newer M5 has lost 50% of its value at 5 years (that is $75K) a used M5 E39 for example at 100k will need approx $5K worth of parts +labor to bring it back to baseline (Depending on mileage and previous owner's attention) See this spreadsheet on a dad owner and inherited M5 needs. The second owner kept Dad's car and brought it back from years of neglect and deferred maintenance woes. Not for the faint hearted looking for a cheap M5.

On a 6 cyl car, the costs are different but a lot of the needs are the same: Cooling system, Brake System, engine reseal, body refurbishing, interior detail and wear parts replaced, and so on. Attached is my own wagon for example.

These two sheet will get you an idea of what it really takes to bring a car back to baseline completely. The other option open is to drive and repair as needed. That way you get to use AAA towing services!

Thank you. This is really helpful. I agree, but it caught my attention that F10 and E39 M5 with similar mileages are within $10K of each other in terms of cost. I didn't compare the E39 540 M and F10 550 M. There is also a far smaller supply of E39s out there for me to consider. I am trying to be practical about my choices.

[E39 Newbie]

The running gag is that the "M" stands for "Money." The M series have loads of M-specific parts that do not come cheap. So you'll want to factor this into your decision. If you can't DIY, the ongoing maintenance expense can be pretty daunting. A couple of cases - our shop has an E64 M6 and an E39 M5. The M6 owner, in his inimitable logic, deferred all maintenance until he'd paid off the car because he didn't want to "invest" in a car owned by the bank. Anyway, after several years of neglect he's now plunked around $14K into fixing all the things that went wrong in those 3 or 4 years. The M5 has a unique throttle actuator that lives deep in the engine's V. This one began to fail. There are none in the USA and they are backordered in Germany. The customer had to wait something like six weeks to get the part. I forgot the cost of the part, but it was in the 4 figures.

Comparing two cars with a minimum of 9 years age difference, albeit with similar mileage, seems to be an apples-to-oranges comparison. One's going to have relatively high mileage and one's going to have relatively low mileage, so the higher mileage will most likely have more mileage-related problems. OTOH, lots of the plastic parts deteriorate more with age than mileage, so the older one will have more of those failures.

Although I, personally, prefer the E39, if you can't DIY I suspect the general parts availability and the fact that the F10 is newer (more of them around, the dealerships have more personnel familiar with them, etc.) would tilt me to the F10. If money is no object, the M-series. If money is somewhat of an object, the 550. In my case, I like the I6 for relative simplicity. It will never win a drag race against anything quicker than a moped, but I love the way it drives and handles.

BTW, have you considered a 535i? There are a sh*tload of aftermarket speed parts for these, and the 335i. They may not be an M5, but you can still go pretty fast and they have decent handling.

[ilyap]

The running gag is that the "M" stands for "Money." The M series have loads of M-specific parts that do not come cheap. So you'll want to factor this into your decision. If you can't DIY, the ongoing maintenance expense can be pretty daunting. A couple of cases - our shop has an E64 M6 and an E39 M5. The M6 owner, in his inimitable logic, deferred all maintenance until he'd paid off the car because he didn't want to "invest" in a car owned by the bank. Anyway, after several years of neglect he's now plunked around $14K into fixing all the things that went wrong in those 3 or 4 years. The M5 has a unique throttle actuator that lives deep in the engine's V. This one began to fail. There are none in the USA and they are backordered in Germany. The customer had to wait something like six weeks to get the part. I forgot the cost of the part, but it was in the 4 figures.

Comparing two cars with a minimum of 9 years age difference, albeit with similar mileage, seems to be an apples-to-oranges comparison. One's going to have relatively high mileage and one's going to have relatively low mileage, so the higher mileage will most likely have more mileage-related problems. OTOH, lots of the plastic parts deteriorate more with age than mileage, so the older one will have more of those failures.

Although I, personally, prefer the E39, if you can't DIY I suspect the general parts availability and the fact that the F10 is newer (more of them around, the dealerships have more personnel familiar with them, etc.) would tilt me to the F10. If money is no object, the M-series. If money is somewhat of an object, the 550. In my case, I like the I6 for relative simplicity. It will never win a drag race against anything quicker than a moped, but I love the way it drives and handles.

BTW, have you considered a 535i? There are a sh*tload of aftermarket speed parts for these, and the 335i. They may not be an M5, but you can still go pretty fast and they have decent handling.

This is helpful. When you are referring to M cars, you mean M5s right, not M package? I have a 330 ZHP and none of the M parts have caused me any issues in last 15 years I owned it. If transmission were to start failing, obviously I'd be in trouble. As a point of comparison, I have driven E46 330 (non-zhp) as well, and I much rather prefer the stiffer suspension. Road handling, weight distribution, and responsive steering are as much of a factor as 'zip' of the car.

I'll look into E9 535 as well, but I don't want it to become a project. I take your point to mean that I can add a supercharger to it, but I hear it does long term damage to a car.

[E39 Newbie]

This is helpful. When you are referring to M cars, you mean M5s right, not M package? I have a 330 ZHP and none of the M parts have caused me any issues in last 15 years I owned it. If transmission were to start failing, obviously I'd be in trouble. As a point of comparison, I have driven E46 330 (non-zhp) as well, and I much rather prefer the stiffer suspension. Road handling, weight distribution, and responsive steering are as much of a factor as 'zip' of the car.

I'll look into E9 535 as well, but I don't want it to become a project. I take your point to mean that I can add a supercharger to it, but I hear it does long term damage to a car.

Yes, I was referring to the "actual" M cars - M5 and M6, not the M package.

The 535i already has either a twin-turbo setup or a dual-scroll single turbo, depending on the year. They're faster than stink and can be upgraded to in the neighborhood of 450RWH. Supposedly the F10 is less "modifiable." I know some of the mods are illegal in The People's Republic of Kalifornia. But larger intercoolers, upgraded turbos, etc., are doable and everything except a tune is bolt-on.

[ilyap]

Don't live in CA now. Moved several times, now in GA. Need to learn a bit more about F10s. Thanks for the feedback.

[lucas999]

At least you’re not looking at E60s, those things are hideous and aged rather poorly.

Hah... was about to suggest OP looks at an E6X. Maybe I'm biased, but I've got to disagree that the E60 has aged badly. I think quite the opposite--the E60 has nearly become elegant with age, but was probably ahead of its time when released. I'm also biased and have a wagon, which I think looks better than the sedans. Doesn't feel like a "classic BMW" like my E39, but I much prefer driving and spending time in my E61 (will never sell the E39, though). That said, a 2008-2010 E60 550i is quite a nice looking car, and an E60 535i can also be turned into a rocket. The S85 M5 can be a burden to maintain, but the S63TT V8 is also known to be plagued with problems. IMO, the F10 is unnecessary for a weekend car--I think an E60 M5 would be comfortable and exotic enough, and regardless of maintenance costs will still be much cheaper than an F10 M5 (no more depreciation).

But who cares what I think... I'd buy a 996 C4S in a heartbeat (as a daily, but even more so as a weekend car).