hello.
I have recently built a s50b32 in my e28.
specs of the engine:
12.5:1 JE 87mm pistons
complete rebuilt head
284 degree catcams
ZRP conrods
rebuilt crankshaft
rebuilt vanos
EMU management
CSL style carbon intake
dw 550cc injectors
alu flywheel
custom equal length stainless headers
simons dual 50mm sport exhaust with H pipe
everything is tuned on the dyno with these results as you can see in the dyno sheet. (326 bhp and 340 nm )
I know it is not bad, but with all these mods I did expect some more power.
do I have a bottleneck somewhere or why isn't it producing more power?
one note here, the fans weren't pointed on the air intake which resulted in a IAT of around 70 degrees.
we have tried tweaking vanos map, ignition timing and VE values. but all with no result. The guy who has done the dyno mapping has a lot of experience on s50/s54 mapping, so I don't think that was the problem.
anyone...?
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A526B
Last edited by yannick1993; 09-09-2021 at 04:41 AM.
BMW invested millions and millions to make this one of the highest HP per displacement naturally aspirated engines at the time. What makes you think there's unused naturally aspirated potential? This isn't a B25 or B28.
The only thing I see that would affect HP is your header and exhaust system, you've made 5hp, that's pretty good. The stock system is already very good, it doesn't leave much potential. To me there's no reason to expect more.
Last edited by importbanana; 09-09-2021 at 05:14 AM.
It should be making much more than 5bhp over stock at that compression ratio, and supporting mods. Something is off
Last edited by GG///M3; 09-09-2021 at 05:43 AM.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell
Wow your first post since joining in 2017 and it's a "tele-engine-medicine" one at that. The first response to your post made me laugh out loud - in a good way. Let me tell you that if I spent the amount of money it appears you've spent and only got 5hp, I'd jump off the Brooklyn bridge but I'd make sure I took my engine tuner and builder (I'm assuming you had one) off the bridge with me.
Just to paint the landscape for you. Keep in mind that you are posting to a predominantly american base where I'd guess 98+ percent of the members have either never heard of the S50B32, never built or tuned one, have general knowledge based on articles, or have never seen one in person let alone driven a car with the b32.
First, the S50B32 was factory rated at 321 PS (316 american hp). This is at the crankshaft. I'm going to assume based on your pictures that you measured rear wheel hp. So your 326 hp figure if uncorrected is not taking into account drivetrain loss which can range form 10-20%. I can't read your dyno sheet but if uncorrected and we assume approximately 15% loss for dynapack (looks like it?) then you might really be much higher. This is why if you use a reputable engine builder and tuner, you first test and tune on an engine dyno. Costs more but you seem to have spent quite a bit of money anyway. Is that dyno sheet a before and after? The graphs are tracking too perfectly together so I don't trust that it's a real before and after especially with stock cams vs. these catcams.
What did your "experienced" tuner say about this and if you used an engine builder what did he say? That's like going to your expert doctor and then going on the internet and asking a bunch of strangers to diagnose your illness. Care to share what they said?
If you used an engine builder and he recommended 12.5:1 pistons for what appears to be a street car I'd be very suspicious. Your car doesn't look like a track car to me.
Anyway here are other points.
- What is the full specification of your cams? Duration without lift is half the picture.
- What do you mean by "rebuilt" crankshaft? Re-ground? If so I hope it was nitrited.
- Did you run a full vanos test to make sure you have the full advance and retard for both intake and exhaust?
- EMU management?? What model? Not familiar with them.
- what is the exact model/part number of the injectors? 550cc seems too high but need to check that.
- What is your fuel pressure?
- What is the pipe diameter of the headers?
- Your pipe diameter for your exhaust should be at least 60mm and preferably 65mm.
- Why are you using an h-pipe? You should be using an x-pipe for better scavenging like this:
Finally why are you basing this project solely on hp measurement? Go out and get your self a racelogic and actually test the performance of your car.
https://www.vboxmotorsport.co.uk/dow.../RLPB_Data.pdf
And that's a really nice e28 by the way!
Last edited by Jim E.; 09-09-2021 at 07:22 PM.
Post a better picture of the dyno graph. If it's 326 at the rear wheels, that's not bad ... though with higher compression you're mostly gaining torque through timing, and not necessarily peak power. Many s54s (I know different engine, but similar) put down ~320-330 rwhp with cams (our is 325 on pump gas, but has 300 cams).
Last edited by ScotcH; 09-09-2021 at 11:23 AM.
BMW E36 M3 184Kwjpg.jpg
This was my standard base line readout
BMW E36 3.2 202kw.jpg
This is with custom exhaust with merge pipe (close to the above photo), m5 clutch kit, cold airbox
and tuned. No internal engine work. Both are rwkw's.
50-60 hp more than mine
https://bimmersport.co.nz/topic/4352...comment-477325
Jim brings up some great points.
It is hard to give a lot of input on the "gains" as we only have the "after" dyno plot. It would be nice to see what other engines put down on this dyno under similar conditions. The dyno is simply a measuring tool and there seems to be a lot of variance between different models, manufacturers, weather, tire pressure etc, how tight are the straps, etc.. I wouldn't say your numbers are bad.. my money says the dyno reads low
That's a very healthy engine at 202KW. That translates to about 360 crank hp for us! Very nice. I think you guys have better and denser air down under so that's not fair.
You should always insist on the torque/hp dyno graph this way you see what the torque is doing up top or at least past 4k. Very nice though!
Good thing OP didn't use a Dyno Dynamics. They don't call it the heartbreak dyno for nothing. Definitely right that it is a measuring tool. That's why I can't figure out why most don't just go out and get a race logic to run real world performance tests. It can even calculate rwhp and crank hp!
I've been promised that when my car is done that I'll be able to measure a gain of 10 hp just based on cleanliness and quality of work!
Last edited by Jim E.; 09-09-2021 at 06:14 PM.
find yourself a drag strip, measure the weight of car with you in it and find out the trap speed at the end of the 1/4mi and that will tell you if it makes good power as opposed to what some random hub dyno says.
as for the tuning what is the duty cycle of the injectors at peak hp? and what is the true ignition timing during the run as you mentioned 70C IAT (or was it 70F) so there may be some engine protection going on?
BMW E30 325is M20B33 in the making....... ITB's, roller rockers and stroked to the hilt
Moved to where the S50B32 is discussed.
04M3 TiAg 69k slick-top 3 pedal
99M3 Cosmos 61k S50B32 euro 6Spd
88M3 AW 43k miles Project FS
WTB: 3.5" Eurosport/Conforti CAI
Haha thanks for your long reply.
It is frustrating indeed, and i know there is much more potential. That is why I started this topic.
You are right about the s50b32. It has much more in common with the s54b32 then the s50b30.
And with the mods I did I think it would produce even more than a stock s54.
I now see the dyno graph turned out very vague.
I am currently doing a roadtrip with the victim haha, I will try to add a more clear dynograph.
This is also the reason i respond a little bit slow.
So here you got your answer, it is not a track car indeed. More of a sundayfunday roadtrip car.
But the lines you see are WHP/BHP and wheel torque/engine torque.
The tuner suspected the exhaust diameter. and I think so too.
I have just found out a stock e36 m3 has 2x60mm.
Mine still has 2x50mm, so I guess here is something to win
1303614.png
Last edited by yannick1993; 09-12-2021 at 01:51 PM.
yannick, if you wish to display images in your forum message, you have a couple of options to do so from the desktop.
While you are putting together your forum message or editing it, click on the INSERT IMAGE icon and select either FROM COMPUTER or FROM URL.
If you opt for the FROM URL, consider using DropBox.Com, Google Photos, Free Image Hosting(.net) to host your photos. Avoid using Photo Bucket or ImgUr as both make it difficult to link to forums.
I hope that helps!
04M3 TiAg 69k slick-top 3 pedal
99M3 Cosmos 61k S50B32 euro 6Spd
88M3 AW 43k miles Project FS
WTB: 3.5" Eurosport/Conforti CAI
damnit now I have accidently removed the post.
Can I bring it back somewhere?
I think it is pretty clear I am new here haha.
WhatsApp Image 2021-09-12 at 19.29.47.jpeg1303614.png
intake
exhaust
camshaft data:
lash ramp
: 0.30mm
0.30mm
duration @ 0.1mm
: 278°
270°
duration @ 1.0mm
: 250°
242°
valve lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
cam lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
lobe angle
: 129° (69°)
114° (76°)
timing @ 1.0mm
: -4° / 74°
55° / 7°
valve lift @ TDC
: 0.90mm (8.31mm)
2.15mm (6.95mm)
intake
exhaust
camshaft data:
lash ramp
: 0.30mm
0.30mm
duration @ 0.1mm
: 278°
270°
duration @ 1.0mm
: 250°
242°
valve lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
cam lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
lobe angle
: 129° (69°)
114° (76°)
timing @ 1.0mm
: -4° / 74°
55° / 7°
valve lift @ TDC
: 0.90mm (8.31mm)
2.15mm (6.95mm)
Last edited by yannick1993; 09-13-2021 at 01:17 PM.
intake
exhaust
camshaft data:
lash ramp
: 0.30mm
0.30mm
duration @ 0.1mm
: 278°
270°
duration @ 1.0mm
: 250°
242°
valve lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
cam lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
lobe angle
: 129° (69°)
114° (76°)
timing @ 1.0mm
: -4° / 74°
55° / 7°
valve lift @ TDC
: 0.90mm (8.31mm)
2.15mm (6.95mm)
intake
exhaust
camshaft data:
lash ramp
: 0.30mm
0.30mm
duration @ 0.1mm
: 278°
270°
duration @ 1.0mm
: 250°
242°
valve lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
cam lift
: 12.50mm
12.00mm
lobe angle
: 129° (69°)
114° (76°)
timing @ 1.0mm
: -4° / 74°
55° / 7°
valve lift @ TDC
: 0.90mm (8.31mm)
2.15mm (6.95mm)WhatsApp Image 2021-09-12 at 19.29.47.jpeg
- What is the full specification of your cams? Duration without lift is half the picture.
I have just posted the specs
- What do you mean by "rebuilt" crankshaft? Re-ground? If so I hope it was nitrited.
That the crank is remilled and that there are placed oversize bearings. Not that thit affects the tune. But more to show you that this was not a halfway rebuild.
- Did you run a full vanos test to make sure you have the full advance and retard for both intake and exhaust?
Yes the vanos works flawless with the EMU. Also has a new pressure regulator.
- EMU management?? What model? Not familiar with them.
EMU classic. It is more of a midrange ECU.
- what is the exact model/part number of the injectors? 550cc seems too high but need to check that.
Deatschwerks 550cc. They are a bit big indeed, but with this free programmable ECU that is not a problem at all.
- What is your fuel pressure?
3 bar
- What is the pipe diameter of the headers?
I can check this, but definitely bigger than the stock headers. Until the collectors offcourse as mentioned.
- Your pipe diameter for your exhaust should be at least 60mm and preferably 65mm.
Yep, this is no1 on my wish list now
- Why are you using an h-pipe? You should be using an x-pipe for better scavenging like this:
I did cause the OEM e36 m3 exhaust had that H pipe at the exact same point. But if im going to build a new exhaust there will be an x-pipe.
the factory exhaust is like 2x50mm at the collector. It does change to bigger OD shortly thereafter but it is like a dual walled pipe IIRC so the ID of factory 60mm exhaust is not the same as a 60mm single walled pipe that you'd get from an aftermarket exhaust shop. there isn't really a penalty with slightly larger pipe size if the merge locations are retained but don't expect enormous gains unless the cats blocked or something has disintegrated in a muffler. Evolve did a full supersprint exhaust i.e. headers to muffler with twin 60mm like $3-4k worth and gains are modest at best like 10hp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zgHegU1Szw
Last edited by digger; 09-14-2021 at 11:48 PM.
BMW E30 325is M20B33 in the making....... ITB's, roller rockers and stroked to the hilt
1. I've attached the specs for the stock s50b32 cams just as a point of reference for you. Most don't know the actual factory specs. Ironically, they are the same as the s50b30 which goes to show that BMW really wanted to make sure the s50b32 didn't have too much hp for obvious reasons.
2. So if you re-ground the crank and used oversized bearings then you built a stroker engine that is more than 3.2. What is the end result in size? What bearings did you sue? I am only curious as a comparison to what I had built.
3. I now understand why you use 550cc injectors. I thought you were running at 5 bar which is the pressure used in the e36M3 evo.
4. Just to put out accurate information, the internal dimensions of the factory s50b32 manifold exit in mm are an oval shape of about 30 x 54 according to BMW.
I don't think you should measure your success or failure with a dyno run. A dyno is just a tool for you to measure before and after.
Also, what rear end gears are you using and what diameter tires are those compared to stock?
Good luck.
Exhaust comparisons BMW Motorsport vs. Supersprint. Note the size difference. I'm showing you because you pretty much built a motorsport spec engine.
Last edited by Jim E.; 09-15-2021 at 04:15 PM.
2. So if you re-ground the crank and used oversized bearings then you built a stroker engine that is more than 3.2. What is the end result in size? What bearings did you sue? I am only curious as a comparison to what I had built.
Re grounding the crank won´t affect the stroke of it. The milled amount of crankshaft material will be compensated by a thicker bearing so the tolerances stay the same.
3. I now understand why you use 550cc injectors. I thought you were running at 5 bar which is the pressure used in the e36M3 evo.
Yes that is right, but I have mounted a adjustable regulator. With 5 bar this would be overkill indeed.
4. Just to put out accurate information, the internal dimensions of the factory s50b32 manifold exit in mm are an oval shape of about 30 x 54 according to BMW.
The outer diameter of the OEM s50 headers were 38mm. I dont know the inner diameter though. We took 40mm outer diameter until the collector. and after that 50mm.
I don't think you should measure your success or failure with a dyno run. A dyno is just a tool for you to measure before and after.
You are totally right about that. But it still feels like kind a disappointment, offcourse the E28 runs great now. But if you read other s50´s with less modifications doing +-340 Hp with less modifications. That kinda upsets me haha.
Also, what rear end gears are you using and what diameter tires are those compared to stock?
I have the OEM getrag 420G 6 speed gearbox mounted. with a 3.25 LSD. The rear tires are 235-40-17. I believe oem e36 m3 has 3.23 gearing.
I am planning to buy the 60mm supersprint system for the E28, pretty similar to the pictures you have sent. Also with the X pipe.
This is my current system.
Last edited by yannick1993; 09-16-2021 at 01:08 PM.
OK I see that you're using stock rods specs. Here when we build a stroker then custom rods are ordered and the crank is ground down with custom sized clevite bearings. Same principal is used for S54 and S65 stroker kits. There's a slight increase in bore too for increase in total displacement.
Your headers look to be more than adequate. When you use the supersprint make sure you place the x-pipe close to the header for best results. You can see the difference between BMW Motorsport and supersprint x-pipe placement in my pictures above.
I'm going to bet that the 340 hp of other engines is measured at the crankshaft. Yours appears to be at the wheels. If you convert 326 rwhp to crankshaft then you could say that you have a range of about 360 hp to 375 depending on drivetrain loss.If you get the racelogic unit from vbox you can actually test for rwhp and crankshaft hp. It is quite accurate and many manufacturers and other facilities use their products.
I don't know how you intend to use the car but my preference for the S50B32 is to use at least 3.64 gears if you have the 6-speed. I actually have 3.91 but I have a race spec valvetrain which can easily go over 8000 rpm. 3.25 is too tall for that engine even a stock s50b32. BMW did use a 3.23 but that's because they wanted to keep mileage up, noise down and did not want to increase the performance of the m3 evo because it was too close to the E46M3. The E46 M3 uses 3.62ish gears. Even though the E46M3 had taller tires, I calculated the increase in torque (i.e., torque multiplication) when using 3.62 over 3.23 is a 10% increase across all gears!
One more thing. There is a company in the U.S. that has pre-fabricated x-pipes. They are in SAE sizes but could be easier for you just in case. https://burnsstainless.com/products/x-y-pipes
Once again, this is a really nice project car! Big thumbs up!!
Last edited by Jim E.; 09-16-2021 at 04:41 PM.
OK I see that you're using stock rods specs. Here when we build a stroker then custom rods are ordered and the crank is ground down with custom sized clevite bearings. Same principal is used for S54 and S65 stroker kits. There's a slight increase in bore too for increase in total displacement.
allright I see. I also saw VAC motorsport selling a stroker kit for the s50 which gives you a displacement of 3.5 with a 87mm bore which I have. But I guess they use shorter rods then? And offcourse a different crankshaft.
Your headers look to be more than adequate. When you use the supersprint make sure you place the x-pipe close to the header for best results. You can see the difference between BMW Motorsport and supersprint x-pipe placement in my pictures above.
Afbeelding1.png
Here you can see the 60mm version for the E28. I will have this and adapt my current headers to fit to the X pipe section.
And as you have mentioned it is close at the headers.
I'm going to bet that the 340 hp of other engines is measured at the crankshaft. Yours appears to be at the wheels. If you convert 326 rwhp to crankshaft then you could say that you have a range of about 360 hp to 375 depending on drivetrain loss.If you get the racelogic unit from vbox you can actually test for rwhp and crankshaft hp. It is quite accurate and many manufacturers and other facilities use their products.
WhatsApp Image 2021-09-12 at 19.29.47.jpeg
No as you can see here the mentioned numbers are BHP and engine torque. The lower lines in the graph represent the Wheel horsepower and wheel torque.
I don't know how you intend to use the car but my preference for the S50B32 is to use at least 3.64 gears if you have the 6-speed. I actually have 3.91 but I have a race spec valvetrain which can easily go over 8000 rpm. 3.25 is too tall for that engine even a stock s50b32. BMW did use a 3.23 but that's because they wanted to keep mileage up, noise down and did not want to increase the performance of the m3 evo because it was too close to the E46M3. The E46 M3 uses 3.62ish gears. Even though the E46M3 had taller tires, I calculated the increase in torque (i.e., torque multiplication) when using 3.62 over 3.23 is a 10% increase across all gears!
Oh wow, i have just took the e36 m3 for reference. And thought; BMW must should have known what they are doing so lets just keep that ratio. But now I see plenty of guys even swapping there 3.64 to 3.91 and even 4.1. Well that will be another one on my to do list! This is easy extra torque.
One more thing. There is a company in the U.S. that has pre-fabricated x-pipes. They are in SAE sizes but could be easier for you just in case. https://burnsstainless.com/products/x-y-pipes
Once again, this is a really nice project car! Big thumbs up!!
Really thank you Jim I really appreciate your input!
So we are back after a roadtrip of 3500km through germany, austria, italy and swiss.
The S50 worked like a charm.
So the engine ran in nicely.
I just measured the simons exhaust pipe system.
It is 2x48mm.
If you calculatie with a wall thickness of 1.5, the mm2 is:
π x 22.5x22.5=1590.43 mm2 per pipe
1590.43x2=3180,86mm2 for the dual exhaust
If you take the supersprint system or OEM bmw m3 exhaust with a wall thickness of 1.5
πx28.5x28.5=2551.75mm2 per pipe
2551.75x2=5103,5 mm2 for the dual exhaust
So with the 60mm system you get 1922.64 mm2=60,4% more!
That could declare why we couldnt get any more power out of the s50.
We will see this winter...
Good luck and please update this thread with your results!
Last edited by Jim E.; 09-24-2021 at 10:56 PM.
Yes keep it a live
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell
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