Clutch ideas? UUC says mine isn't "right" for my application

[philly98540]

Damn the prices have come up on the LuK stuff since I bought these same parts in 2013. I paid a total of $575 for both the clutch and flywheel delivered back then. This setup will work flawlessly and will last well over 100K miles unless you beat the crap out of it. Its not rev happy though due to the weight of the FW. Many have reused the FW and just put a new clutch kit on it without issue after 100-150K miles of use. The unicorn modded LuK FW is pricey, but maybe the best compromise.

Prices Now...

Flywheel

Lowest cost
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...HiTfT5nBbGg%3D

Or
Lifetime warranty
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...em-21201223581

Clutch

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...t-m5-z8-03-042

Still likely less than most any aftermarket set ups. You latest comments suggest you don't care about gear rattle and you want rev happy. I have no suggestions for you for that. I HAD to go twin disc to hold my power unless I wanted a super awful stiff pedal and grabby noisy engagement of a race set up single. Maybe some others have some suggestions of a decent street setup that holds similar power as the M5 LuK kit, but is LWFW and decent street feel.

I still suggest you go with the LuK setup above.

[ThaDoubleJ]

After a sleep, I think the unicorn Einhorn setup with a stock M5 clutch is probably my best bet to keep the car a BMW while adding a bit of revviness (is that a word?) and a bunch of extra holding capacity. I think if I could find a sprung disc, I'd be ok with the JB flywheel as I can live with the rattle, but any sort of engagement theatrics or chattering through parking lots will have me under the car again.

If you all are positive that it'll hold ~425HP/375TQ, survive one trip to the drag strip, a couple dyno pulls, more than a couple smoky burnouts and general tomfoolery in the mountain canyons while being livable in occasional stop n go traffic all while lasting ~50K miles, I'll be dead before it needs to be replaced again.

I also need to stop farting around and just order the damn VF kit, something tells me that'll be a bigger project than this Wavetrac has turned into.

[KeysCoupe]

I'm still collecting parts for an engine swap in my 525it. I have a low mileage E46 ZHP engine/37BZ 6 speed, and will be re-installing the ESS twinscrew once the 3.0 is in and running. I went with a fresh OEM dual mass flywheel, but went with the Sachs Performance Clutch set (heavy duty non-sac). I've experienced gear rattle and hate it, yet still need the holding power to stand up to a supercharged engine. This setup should take care of both of my needs. My part numbers are specific to the ZHP, at least the solid disc. The pressure plate is part #883082001243 which should replace the 240mm sac piece that our cars came with, only with a lot more holding power when used with the matching disc. This clutch setup is supposed to be stronger than the M5 clutch. The gear rattle is a function of a single mass flywheel. Run a single mass fw, you will have gear rattle.
Just another option.
-Donny

[JimLev]

If you all are positive that it'll hold ~425HP/375TQ, survive one trip to the drag strip, a couple dyno pulls, more than a couple smoky burnouts and general tomfoolery in the mountain canyons while being livable in occasional stop n go traffic all while lasting ~50K miles, I'll be dead before it needs to be replaced again.

I’m running a stock 540 clutch, PP, and flywheel with 480HP and about 500 ft-lb at the crank. I lift off the gas a little during shifts to shut the juice off during shifts, then floor it after it’s in gear which turns the juice back on. The only thing I did was take about 0.020” off the part of the PP that mounts to the flywheel so it clamps a little bit tighter. It doesn’t slip at all.
If I ever need to replace the clutch again I’ll use the M5 disc and PP.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Ok, so I'm gonna need the flywheel, a ring with 8 holes in it (what's that called?), 8 special bolts with special bolt tool, pilot bearing, throwout bearing, pressure plate, disc, the detents, the sleeve thing....What else? Bolts for the pressure plate to flywheel? Weird looking spring? Brass pivot thing for the arm?

[blarf]

Pilot and throwout bearings should be included with the clutch kit. The flywheel bolts are captive (so they're included) and the tool is just a narrow shank T-60. Don't know what ring you're talking about. If you're desperate to save a few bucks (or the price jumped recently) you can shave down a long bit. The pivot arm and clip are (or were) cheap, might as well replace them. If you go with a brass pin don't forget to lube it like I did. Pressure plate bolts, yes. They're "microencapsulated" and single use. I'm sure you could clean them, apply some more thread locker and torque to spec. I wouldn't.

BMW has a special little tool to lock the flywheel if you're into that whole one right way to do everything German nonsense.

I'd do the selector seal since it should be cheap and it's a transmission out deal. If you're cheap I think you can just push a new seal in there. If the transmission is leaking from the input or output shaft seals, do those. If you don't know when the mounts or flex disc were replaced, replace those. If you don't know when the shifter bushings were replaced, they're a lot easier with the transmission out of the way.

Is the rear main leaking at all?

BMW discontinued the old style fill/drain plugs with copper washers and only sells plugs with integrated rubber o-rings. If that's what you've got formally they're one use only, realistically check the o-ring to see how squashed it is (they're like $10 each or something ridiculous like that). If you've got plugs with copper washers, obviously just get some new washers.

It comes down to how much you want to spend versus how much you want to avoid pulling the transmission if something's not quite right.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Maybe the ring is for LWFWs, you can see it in this picture. https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/861967_x300.jpg

Flywheel locking tool looks like a pry bar to me from what I've seen on youtube. I see the fancy ones, but I've got some pry bars in the garage. The T60 tool runs about $40 from what I see, hopefully I can find one at HF and just grind it down.

I have rear main receipts from right before I bought the car, no leaks that I can tell, but I'll check closely when I pull out the trans next week.

My fill/drain plugs are tapered like NPT stuff, and were covered in teflon tape (as was all of the slave cylinder stuff...derp). The fill plug came out easy, the drain plug was concerningly tight. I believe it's been stretched by some ham fisted doofus and that's why there's tape on it. It looked damp the other day, probably seeps.

Being cheap isn't really an option here. I didn't know what I was getting into with BMW ownership (my last one broke and I sold it immediately) but I had a good idea. All I wanted was an LSD, now look what I went and got myself into.

What's the advantage of the brass vs plastic pivot pin? Longevity? Car sees 1000 miles a year, I'm 42, so my kid will have to replace it when she's 40. BMW makes a steel one.

Awful lot of complaining on the web about the SAC. Doesn't seem like there's a stock-ish pressure plate without it though, you have to go full racecar. Even the race-car-y SouthBend clutches have it according to what I can locate. Anyone aware of a stock-ish clutch kit minus the SAC? Edit: Found one, https://www.ecstuning.com/b-sachs-pe...082001243~sac/ Disc is on sale this weekend: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-sachs-pe...864999978~sac/ Wonder if I could just put a regular disc in there instead of this super expensive one along with the no SAC pressure plate?

Anyone familiar with LscMan over on the M5 board? That guy HATES the stock M5 clutch and flywheel. HATES em! Holy cow. He's up in PA with you all.

[KeysCoupe]

You want a "stock-ish pressure plate without sac"? Go back and re-read post #53. I even gave you the Sachs part number. I bought the set (matching disc that doesn't fit your application) for around $450 aboit 2 months back.
-Donny

[ThaDoubleJ]

For the M5 application I'm coming up around a grand on the Sachs stuff. Says it engages similar to stock, but no mention of pedal effort. I found a few posts where people considered buying it, and then switched to something else mid-process.

[jicaino]

I’m running a stock 540 clutch, PP, and flywheel with 480HP and about 500 ft-lb at the crank. I lift off the gas a little during shifts to shut the juice off during shifts, then floor it after it’s in gear which turns the juice back on. The only thing I did was take about 0.020” off the part of the PP that mounts to the flywheel so it clamps a little bit tighter. It doesn’t slip at all.
If I ever need to replace the clutch again I’ll use the M5 disc and PP.

This is a great idea, now that I'm on a budget and will have to reuse good clutch parts.

[ThaDoubleJ]

And ECS sold that clutch disc, price went up 100 bucks for a drop ship, time to start hunting for a deal. Anyone heard of or dealt with UroTuning? This Sachs clutch I'm looking at is a G everywhere, they have it for under $500, smells funny to me. They've got great reviews as a seller all over the place though.

[ThaDoubleJ]

$12,000 car, just dropped $7500 on goodies inside 5 minutes, still need a whole pile of them to make it go fast. What's wrong with me? JPMC sent me a fraud alert for spending that money. Einhorn goes a little heavy on the shipping though, hundred bucks for a flywheel. Over 200 for the SC kit, had that shipped to work instead of home.

[BimmerBreaker]

$12,000... + $7,500... $19,500...

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used...ting=308658981 & $500 for plane tickets and gas home

[ThaDoubleJ]

I could have gotten the M5, but too many hard to find parts, I can get another 4.4 if I need one, that M5 engine is a bit special.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Rolled the dice and ordered the half price Sachs kit from Uro. I checked and cross checked and re-cross check the listed parts and they match both ECS and Sachs websites. What I did find odd is that Sachs makes a regular old throw out bearing for the M5 and a high performance/high RPM/High load race car throw out bearing for the 540i, not interchangeable according to them. Got my trans jack last night so hopefully I'll have the trans on the ground on Monday.

[blarf]

Pretty much every BMW clutch since the mid-80s or so has been SAC + dual mass flywheel. The OE style M5 clutch kit is extremely civilized and easy to drive and holds quite a bit of power. It is not a fast revving boy racer setup. If the complaints you saw were about the former, they're wrong. If the complaints were about the latter, they're right. Hell take a look at Harry Metcalfe's recent review of the Z8 where he talks about how the S62 is not a real M motor and how slow revving it is.

I was just reviewing coverage (yay wildfires) with the homeowner's insurance company last week and the rep asked about auto coverage. Come to think of it I feel like an agreed value policy might be a good idea given how expensive these wagons and their parts are getting. Modern day classics and all that crap.

[ThaDoubleJ]

The complaints I saw were about how the stock clutch can't hold the stock power, and about how the clutch will die in 20K miles and overheat and warp and a bunch of stuff that doesn't seem to line up with what you all are saying, so I dismissed his complaints and ordered the unicorn flywheel and Sachs setup with no SAC. Pedal effort is a little more but engagement is the same says the internet, very DD-able.

When I put insurance on my 540, they valued it at 5300 bucks or something. Nowhere in their system did they have an M-Sport, just a 540 is a 540, regular old E39. I contacted Hagerty, they said the same thing, there's a 5 series, and then there's the M5, pick one. I asked for M5 coverage, they gave me a 14,000 valuation and I wrote a check. They said once it's supercharged, come back and we'll up the coverage to cover the additional parts. I did have to supply an entire folder of close up photos to prove the condition of the car.

[KeysCoupe]

And ECS sold that clutch disc, price went up 100 bucks for a drop ship, time to start hunting for a deal. Anyone heard of or dealt with UroTuning? This Sachs clutch I'm looking at is a G everywhere, they have it for under $500, smells funny to me. They've got great reviews as a seller all over the place though.

Uro in Tampa is where I bought mine. It took close to a month before it was delivered, but the price (PP and disc) was less than half of ECS sale prices, part number for part number. I too wondered if it was for real, but they came through fine.
-Donny

[ThaDoubleJ]

Thanks Keys, hopefully it's not a month getting here, but that alleviates a bit of anxiety for me. The place I ordered my SC kit from, VAC, emailed me saying they'll provide a quote (? I paid the price listed on the website, plus $200 bucks for shipping) sometime next week and then I can send them a wire transfer. I asked for some clarification on all that, also smells funny.

[KeysCoupe]

Thanks Keys, hopefully it's not a month getting here, but that alleviates a bit of anxiety for me. The place I ordered my SC kit from, VAC, emailed me saying they'll provide a quote (? I paid the price listed on the website, plus $200 bucks for shipping) sometime next week and then I can send them a wire transfer. I asked for some clarification on all that, also smells funny.

I'm almost ready to place an order to ESS in Norway for a TS2+ intercooler upgrade. I think they closed the office in Arizona a while back. I'd be more comfortable ordering from VAC.
-Donny

[ThaDoubleJ]

Hopefully VAC gives me some sensible answers after the holiday, we'll see. I'm under the car today pulling the trans, so far so good, but I've only done the easy stuff and now I'm watching YT video tutorials. I'm curious about these reverse Torx bolts, is there some coefficient of friction between German aluminum and steel that's different than US and Japanese cars? These (and the axle bolts) are small looking to me, and I've never quite trusted any sort of Torx fastener, but they all have a good hundred-plus lb/ft of torque on them. I almost had to resort to a breaker bar for a few, and that just seems way too tight for this sized fastener. It's lug nut levels of tightness.

I also read or watched or saw something about bracing the engine once the trans support is removed, but I can't find it now. Going to keep searching, but is that necessary? Edit: Did it anyway, 2x4 between the engine and the sway bar.

Something else I'm curious about...UUC does not have the best name in the industry, but you can't get through B-M and to W before someone comes out of the bushes hollering about how you need a UUC clutch and lightweight flywheel in your car. How are they so prevalent in the aftermarket with so many bad reviews, just killer marketing?

Pro Tip! Remove the crank position sensor, don't just unplug it, it'll EXPLODE when it gets caught on the flywheel as you pull the trans out. $120 for a genuine BMW, or $70 for a Hella?

Pro Tip! The toppest driver's side bolt that's an absolute nightmare to get out is way easier to get out when it's been broken off by the last person who took the trans out. There's nothing sticking out to grab it with. Drill it out or go with 11 bolts?

There is coloration from heat on both the flywheel and the pressure plate. The disc is glazed (or else that's just how kevlar looks?). I could probably get a new disc and steel insert and pressure plate, but why? Already bought all the other stuff.
2 theories: Either the guy was slipping it more than I knew and put booboos on it before I got it, or it got contaminated by whatever they put on the input shaft, there were some flingy marks of something white on the interior portion of the flywheel.
Maybe that glazed it, and then it just kept slipping and heating up on the high RPM shifts.

Check out these pictures, tell me what you think:

DSC_0398.jpgInkedDSC_0397_LI.jpgInkedDSC_0399_LI.jpg

[philly98540]

Yeah, maybe they put some white grease on the shaft and that flung out and contaminated everything. I'm not sure though.

Likely could live with just 11 bolts, but I'd try to drill it and get an easy out and remove it myself.

That bottom open big hole gets a rubber plug to close it off. Simple to buy and pop in.

I use a collection of wobble extensions and long extensions and can remove the bellhousing bolts without much fuss anymore. They are a challenge the first time round till you figure what works for you. The top ones you can get from above as well if you prefer.

[ThaDoubleJ]

I mighta hammed up how bad the top bolt was, it wasn't actually that terrible. I have a bunch of 1/2" extensions with built-in mini-wobbles, and about 5 of them together curved my socket right in there, took maybe 3 tries. The broken one though, I was trying forever to get the socket on it's head, finally noticed that there was daylight showing between the trans and engine, reached up and found it missing. Derp. All in all, wasn't the worst thing ever (other than annihilating my crank sensor) pulling the trans. Too bad about the heat damage to the clutch though, gonna make it lose value on the ebay if the buyer has to replace the PP, steel disc and friction disc. Maybe I can sell it to someone who short shifts only....

[BimmerBreaker]

UUC was one of the first companies to start offering a lot of aftermarket support for the E36 which became a hugely popular chassis in the aftermarket/modification scene. By the time people realized they weren't that great (or maybe, by the time their quality dropped) they were already "the name" in the game. They did help a few early big-power E36 guys with clutch kits so they did have a little history to base their reputation on. But there are better alternatives these days and it has been a long uphill battle convincing long-term enthusiasts that UUC isn't all it's cracked up to be. Not all of their clutch kits are garbage, but, their customer service leaves some to be desired

I really like the blue color of their flywheels though

[ThaDoubleJ]

...

I really like the blue color of their flywheels though

Agreed, these parts look really good. To be honest, maybe this is an install problem, I don't know. I've heard that Kevlar is for light cars, not ideal for ours, but who knows, I've heard a lot of stuff. I think if they hadn't tried so hard to sell me repair parts for this clutch, and then told me to sell it on ebay and buy a $3300 clutch, maybe I wouldn't be so salty about it. Maybe. They just gave me nonsense answers on the phone and it soured me. It also concerns me that this clutch isn't listed for sale anywhere, including their site, which tells me it was a problem. Either way, it's going down the road and Unicorn/Sachs parts are going in and I shouldn't ever have to deal with the clutch again other than operating it with my left foot.