Transmission case sleeves, ZF 4HP22/24 EH valve body questions

[Annddrriy]

I will put ON/OFF switch on lock up solenoid ground wire and turned switch to position OFF than check it if oil pressure in torque convertor drop down if is does drop down that is something wrong with wiring program A/M switch or TPS or TCU. Also switch could be install on pressure regulator solenoid ground wire to swich OFF to check if pressure drop in torque convertor this is also could be a problem with pressure If is pressure not drop down the problem in valve body pressure build up in channel plate and by-pass pressure regulator valve and safety valve and torque convertor valve of wrong rebuild lower front and lower rear of the valve body. When you need 4th gear to be engaged just turn switch position ON than clutch F engaged and lock up clutch engaged in torque convertor for 4th gear. Turn switch ON after 90km/h for lock up clutch in torque convertor.

[whiskychaser]

If the TC clutch were engaging when it should not be, the car would stall. It is also likely that the outer front edge of the TC would show signs of overheating. Hard to tell the difference between clutch material from the trans or the TC. The whole of the trans is going to smell of burned ATF as it is pumped round it. A short to ground in the wiring would cause a fault code to be stored in the TCM. That does not appear to be the case now but seems to be what you are considering. Maybe think about installing diodes in the new wiring so the TCM is not aware you are trying to control the TC clutch manually.

[Annddrriy]

If the TC clutch were engaging when it should not be, the car wouldn't stall and engine not shut off because forward gears cluch pack A has a friction plates its sliping and wearing out fast in forward pack and also in lock up clutch in torque convertor you can feel it how pressure built up in torque convertor. Switch A/M mode M works better torque convertor locks cluch some times not always depends how you accelerate more accelerate more fluid flow through input shaft hole to locks clutch in torque convertor. If lock up solenoid not operated power not go to solenoid. TCU knows when to shift. Shift going on after 90km/h. If something wrong in TCU lock up clutch solenoid alway stay on and make pressure for forward pack and lock up clutch. To check that open plug for TC release hole and another check plug for A clutch hole. Line pressure plug on driver side in work manual that is different story. There is pressure should be at idle selector set to drive gauge shows 80-111psi.
Pressure regulator valve spring is soft and ATF pressure built up pressure in valve body of forward gear clutch A pack.

[shogun]

Another thing valve body shift valve springs mess it up somewhere. Pressure regulator valve spring so strong how fluid can push the valve to open channel in channel plate ?

The usual faults I find when overhauling a valve body is that the valve pistons got stuck from dirt, I polish the pistons when necessary. Dirt inside the valve body is usually the problem that a VB does not work as it should, not springs.In more than 15 years I have only once found 2 broken springs in one 4HP24, that was ZF p/n 0732 041 574 Druckfeder - Compression spring and 0732 041 667 H Druckfeder - compression spring

[Annddrriy]

Stall speed is high when gear selector is set to position drive in A/M switch mode is set to position A how you call it Economy mode stall speed should be low at idle not that high. Car begins to move forward at same time when selector is set to D. Car should remain stall without any move forward. When accelerator press a bit car begins to move forward when selector is set to D but when A/M switch is set to mode M car move forward just a bit because stall speed is low. That is mean something wrong with valve body. Pressure regulator valve spring is to soft. Line pressure not correct then sending lots pressure to forward gear.

[Annddrriy]

A/M switch mode M not shift the gears it stay on 3rd gear only TCU adjust pressure for it. S mode sport mode shifts 3 forward gears only TCU don't shift 4th gear and TC not lock the clutch.

[Annddrriy]

Torque convertor with lock up clutch. ZF4HP22/24EH
42966 (1).jpg

[Annddrriy]

Fluid level was good. Tested MV3 TC lockup solenoid and the resistance is very high! 485ohms to be exact. E- 9 version 4 solenoid valve body MV1 and MV2 solenoids ground wires pins to TCU #16 and #17.

[whiskychaser]

May have been mentioned previously but an auto will creep forward when it is in D on level ground and the brakes are released. Also, sport doesnt work in top gear. Both those conditions are normal

MV3 is not the TC solenoid - MV5 is. Link to diagrams is below if needed. Maybe remind your mechanic that if he is looking into the face of the TCM plug, the pins are a mirror of those stamped in the TCM socket.

http://www.wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm

[Annddrriy]

An auto will creep forward when it is in D on level ground and the brakes are released that is not normal the torque convertor clutch are locked to rear cover and slip with rear cover and when brakes are released all 3 parts spins together rear cover turbine and impeller. If clutch not locked in torque convertor an auto will not creep forward it will makes fluid coupling with turbine only and pressure plate clutch not engaged with rear cover of torque convertor. When you accelerate the turbine begins to spins with input shaft fluid shouldn't go through input shaft. Channel in valve body must ramaine closed. Channel open in valve body when 4th gear are ready for shift.
Screenshot_20220111-210333.pngScreenshot_20220111-211300.png This is technical service information E-9 version 4 solenoids valve body. 1990 BMW 735i-735iL -750iL Electical Troubleshooting is different diagram. Both diagram go to pin#25 in TCU harness wire plug with 35 pins on it. Pin#25 ground Lock up solenoid pin#1 power for all 4 solenoids.

[shogun]

[QUOTE, Annddrriy] An auto will creep forward when it is in D on level ground and the brakes are released that is not normal the torque convertor clutch are locked to rear cover and slip with rear cover and when brakes are released all 3 parts spins together rear cover turbine and impeller.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is normal!
My E32 750 will also creep forward with engine running in idle when it is in D on level ground and the brakes are released, and I have tested several other with 4HP22/24, all do it, and they should do it. otherwise something is wrong. In fact, if it is working correctly, you don't even have to touch the throttle pedal. As soon as you release the brake, because it has fully engaged first, it will (should) creep forward at engine idle speed. D = DRIVE

In position N the car will not move. If you are on a steep mountain road and you put the gear in N and do not brake, the car will roll backwards.
N = neutral, idling, select N when the car is stopped with the engine running.
Read your user manual for the E32, it is even mentioned there: the car tends to creep forwards (or backwards) if the engine is running at idle speed and a drive ratio is engaged. Before leaving the car with the engine running , first selected P or N and engage the handbrake.

[Annddrriy]

Your E32 750 also creep forward is not the way it should do that and several other same creep also has problem with lock up clutch. Some one post it about this problem in another webside in some country mechanics keep changing those transmissions like pop corn.

[Cactuar]

My 735iL with the 4HP22 EH transmission behaves like Shogun's 750. It moves forward slowly when in D without depressing the brake pedal. My Honda with automatic transmission behaves the same, as do all the automatic cars I've driven actually.

[Annddrriy]

Your car also has a problem if behaves like Shogun's 750. Mine is same behave. Friend of mine the Nissan is not creep forward.
Your Honda with automatic transmission behaves the same. Car will not creep forward if pressure regulator valve spring is correct.

[shogun]

yes, when in D, engine in idle and brake released the car moves forward, exactly as Cactuar, whiskychaser, shogun and the E32 user manual say. Nothing wrong.
If it does not move in D = drive, then the repair manual mentions as possible faults
dirty oil filter
clutch A defective
1 way clutch first gear slips
wrong setting of gear change rods between control lever and gear box.

user manual for the E32 confirms: the car tends to creep forwards (or backwards) if the engine is running at idle speed and a drive ratio is engaged. Before leaving the car with the engine running , first selected P or N and engage the handbrake.

[Annddrriy]

If car not move forward when gear selector is set to position drive that is excellent stall speed in clutch A pack. In clutch A pack not to much pressure at idle to able creep car forward.

[shogun]

the E32 user manual is mentioning that the car creeps forward in D = drive, my car creeps forward since I bought it 30 years ago.
I also tested my E36 M3, same, also the E36 user manual mentions: The footbrake must also be depressed before selecting a drive position, since the vehicle "creeps" in idle when a drive position is engaged.
E34 user manual page 29: the car tends to creep forward (or backwards) if the engine is running at idle speed and a drive ratio is engaged.
Do you really believe all our cars have a problem and all the user manuals mention something wrong?

Even when the lock up clutch is disengaged, some ATF is moved = "car creeps". The working principle of fluid can be easily explained by the taking two fans in which one is connected to the power supply and other is not. When the power switch is ON, the air from the first fan is starts to blow towards the second fan (which is not connected to the power source). Initially when the first fan is blowing at lower speed, it does not able to drive the second fan. But as the speed of the powered fan increases, the speed of air striking the blades of second fan also increases and it starts to rotate.
https://www.mechanicalbooster.com/wp...ng:webp/ngcb20

[Annddrriy]

Workshop manual explain car drag forward when selector gear is set to position drive how car react in emergency mode. That what is going on with three forward gears. Torque convertor stay not locked. The problem is in valve body pressure regulator valve spring number 19 is soft then it makes a lot of pressure in forward gear. If the car tends to creep forward or backward if the engine is running at idle speed and a drive ratio is engaged then forward gear clutch A begins to wear out if car not creep forward then clutch A will not wear out at idle speed when selector is set to position D.

[Annddrriy]

The car creeps forward in D = drive if car creeps forward since you bought it 30 years ago that is mean you driving your car 30 years in emergency mode. All settings could be set from valve body in pressure regulator valve spring number 19 is soft. I am %100 sure car don't have to creep forward when gear selector is set to position D or R.

[Annddrriy]

Exactly ! The working principle of fluid can be easily explained by the taking two fans in which one is connected to the power supply and other is not. When the power switch is ON the air from the first fan that is impeller in torque convertor is starts to blow towards the second fan which is not connected to the power source that is you turbine plate in torque convertor. Initially when the first fan is blowing at lower speed it does not able to drive the second fan of low RPM if you encrease RPM of the first fan the second fan will start to spin.
Same thing in car of turbine and converter housing. If ATF pressure will be low then ATF pressure can’t build enough pressure to spin turbines with input shaft clutch A.
That is my opinion you don't have to agree with me if you don't want to.

[shogun]

The car creeps forward in D = drive if car creeps forward since you bought it 30 years ago that is mean you driving your car 30 years in emergency mode. All settings could be set from valve body or torque convertor. I am %100 sure car don't creep forward when gear selector is set to position D or R.

I repeat, read the user manual. I assume you are joking that my car runs since 30 years in emergency mode.

emergency mode means for M70:
EML light would be on
transmission being locked into one forward gear, unable to change shift either automatically or manually.
The redundancy goes so far that even one bank of the engine can run independently of the other in the emergency
EML provides failsafe throttle operating programs, reduces maximum RPM and vehicle speed limits
Emergency Program
When a malfunction occurs within the transmission, the Emergency program (failsafe mode) will be initiated. The Emergency Program will prevent unintended gear engagement and ensure driver safety. The following will occur during Failsafe Operation:
• All shift solenoids are de-energized via TCM internal relay.
• The pressure regulation solenoid is de-energized resulting in maximum line pressure.
• The Torque Converter Clutch is de-activated.
• The Reverse Lockout function is cancelled.
• Shift lock solenoid is de-energized.
• Fault indicators are active.
The fault indicator varies depending upon model, year and cluster type etc. High version instrument cluster will display a message in the matrix display. Vehicles with low version clusters will display a fault symbol in the cluster.
During failsafe mode the transmission will be shifted into a higher gear to allow the vehicle to be driven to a service location. Depending upon application, the transmission will shift into 3rd or 4th gear (on a 4spd) and 4th or 5th gear (on a 5 spd).

I have not a single fault code in the fault code reader and all works excellent

[Annddrriy]

I am not joking with you I talking seriously with you for me no point to joke. The 735i 1991-1992 models don't have EML module but it has cluster A/M switch when you select mode A on cluster screen it shows E that is your emergency mode. Mode A design for German autobahn where it has unlimited speed on the highway. USA and Canada has 100 km/h you can not have this mode that is why they made it E on cluster that is in economy mode. E mode is design for safe driving also is good mode. When you select A mode then on cluster it shows A letter that is your automatic adaptation mode car no more in emergency mode. AEG program in automatic transmission TCM.
When you select mode M you have M letter you don't have something else on cluster that is for winter condition when road slippery it's more safe driving. What speed limit in Japan on highway ?

[Annddrriy]

If EML provides failsafe throttle operating programs, reduces maximum RPM and vehicle speed limits. Emergency program.
Car without EML also provide emergency program. That program we were takling about cluster when you do cluster self test the RPM and Speedometer gauge not go through all the range it cuts on half way of the range RPM3500 and speed135km/h that is emergency program has been chosen. If you drive more than that you will brake transmission in your car. Your car don't have cluster self test but has EML light.

[Cactuar]

Call Eurowa in Montreal which is an authorized ZF service center and ask them if the transmission should creep forward in Drive 514 487-1032.
Or you could call ZF directly in Germany. They engineered the transmission so they will know.

[Annddrriy]

I asked him why car move forward when gear selector is set to position drive he said depends on torque convertor stall speed clearance between pressure plate and rear cover of torque convertor if gap is big car will not move forward if gap is small car will creep forward.