Transmission case sleeves, ZF 4HP22/24 EH valve body questions

[whiskychaser]

The stator has a one-way clutch so it won't work if it is installed the wrong way round. Even if someone did manage to assemble a TC incorrectly, they would likely be unable to weld it up as the stator would not fit that way round

[Annddrriy]

If stator put wrong side it might spin anticlockwise.

[shogun]

not possible to install stator wrong way as whiskychaser said above.
If you have a lot of particles in the ATF pan, then it might be time to repair and change all the worn parts in the old transmission and I would also send the torque converter for overhaul, I showed you the pics of the TC we had repaired.
Basically that are all wear parts, especially the friction parts, they are like brake pad material and wear when used many, many years. Same on 4HP22 and 4HP24. The difference between 4HP22 and 4HP24 modifications lies in frictions and steel discs in packages. The modification with the valve body (type Е9) and 4 solenoids is the most common in repair, while earlier series with 5-solenoids in the valve body are considered to be a rarity. The ZF 4HP24 unit is a fail-safe and massive transmission, constructed with the help of high-quality materials, ensuring enhanced safety margin.

Repair procedures
Friction components of the Forward package are the first to get burnt because of intensive operation. The percentage of hard parts replacement and seals is quite low only in the overhaul kit (repair kit). It is common to replace worn-out pump housing bushing (covers – 17 mm), and less frequently bushings (13 mm) with the pump gasket and pump seal in the 4HP22/24 unit suffering from oil starvation. Land Rover’s oil pump gets out of service early because of contaminated fluid and long-term operation with a faulty torque converter. It is required to perform the torque converter repair together with the abovementioned procedure. The improper operation of clogged or worn-out solenoids and valve body is named as the main reason of oil starvation causing burning of the package Forward. The replacement of solenoids is a scheduled procedure for old cars using this transmission. The problem of a dirty valve body is usually explained by worn-out locking clutch of the torque converter. If there are some delays with gears shifting, kicks or slippage in ZF 4HP22 with mileages above 200 thousand kilometers, then it signals that springs and solenoids cannot handle the dirt from frictions falling on valves. The minor overhaul prolongs the resource of this transmission for many years. It is suggested that the average resource of ZF4HP22 (4HP24) before the overhaul can reach up to 300 thousand kilometers, but it depends on the driving style “aggressiveness”.
copied from here https://go4trans.com/transmission/4hp22/

Burnt fluid
In the event that the transmission fluid is overfilled with dirt particles or other foreign elements, the result will be its combustion. This situation will lead to insufficient cooling and overheating of the transmission. Also, such a negative result can be an increase in the temperature of the liquid or the use of its incorrect type. If there was a burning of the liquid, you will feel the pungent smell of burning, and you can visually distinguish the burned liquid from the new, which has a red colour and a sweet glow.

automatic-transmission-problems-guide https://at-manuals.com/automatic-tra...roblems-guide/

[Annddrriy]

Friction plates same like brake shoe quality high performance premium and low quality. Those yellow friction plates in forward gear clutch A looks soft not that strong like dark brown friction plates which is high performance quality and much more expensive to buy.

[shogun]

my comparison friction plate and brake pad was just a simple explanation to understand it easy, of course not 100% the same material, but friction plates also wear from the friction same like a brake pad and are used for the same purpose.
I have replaced the A clutch friction plates in 4HP24, not that difficult.

[Annddrriy]

I am looking for info to upgrade A cluch pack when transmission will need to be repaire. Have a look on a picture there is 4 washers and one aluminum plug what is that for ? Teflon seals replace by steel seals also in channel plate drill 2mm hole in orifice for forward gear to have better engagement.
A clutch upgrade.jpg

[shogun]

ask the seller world wide speciality parts for what that is for in their offer for A-clutch upgrade. They should have instructions how to install and what effect it has.
The offer says: this listing is for a Superior ZF4HP22 Clutch Correction Kit. This kit helps correct burned forward clutches, slipping in drive, reverse only, creeping in neutral, short life rebuilds. Kit includes the "no-go" tool to test stator support condition, custom composite Teflon stator rings, buffer wheel and forward clutch piston modification information with drill bit. Full detailed instructions are included in the kit.

As always, if you have any questions please feel free to message us here on eBay. We have an ASE certified transmission tech with 25+ years experience rebuilding transmissions available to answer your questions.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/30134405850...cAAOSwHSxdjMEk

[Annddrriy]

Forward clutch piston modification are you talking about piston is in transmission or piston is in valve body ? Thanks!

[shogun]

I do not know, I quoted the offer text of the seller, for more information/details contact the seller: worldwidespecialtypartsvbx

[Annddrriy]

Could torque converter lock up the clutches when forward gears engaged if is pressure to high in torque convertor ? Range gauge maximum psi 300 could be installed to check oil pressure in torque converter from the stator housing output plug are next of cooler return line ?
oil pump housing.png 1) Could be check from torque convertor release plug M14X1.5 2) Checking from pressure line plug M20X1.5 gear selector is set to position drive at idle 750 RPM should be 80-111 psi.
Screenshot_20220108-110019.jpg

[Annddrriy]

Do you know what size two springs for A clutch damper piston ?

[Annddrriy]

"E-9", has 4 solenoids on the valve body, was introduced in Mid-1989 and used up thru 1994. This version uses a shift solenoid for the reverse lockout function. Two shifting solenoids stay together on one housing which shifts forward gears only. Pressure line solenoid housing and solenoid has shift valve #79 reverse lock up valve. Lock up clutch housing and solenoid also shifting solenoid on forth gear If pressure regulator solenoid is in reverse housing and also they call it pressure solenoid housing how pressure solenoid could shift the reverse gear ? Always when I shift selector gear in to Reverse drive shaft has dull thud. Maybe pressure solenoid should be at lock up solenoid place ?

[Annddrriy]

"E-9", has 4 solenoids on the valve body, was introduced in Mid-1989 and used up thru 1994. This version uses a shift solenoid for the reverse lockout function. Two shifting solenoids stay together on one housing which shifts forward gears only. Pressure line solenoid housing and solenoid has shift valve #79 reverse lock up valve. Lock up clutch housing and solenoid also shifting solenoid on forth gear If pressure regulator solenoid is in reverse housing and also they call it pressure solenoid housing how pressure solenoid could shift the reverse gear ? Always when I shift selector gear into reverse drive shaft has dull thud. Maybe pressure solenoid should be at lock up solenoid place ?

[Annddrriy]

"E-9", has 4 solenoids on the valve body, was introduced in Mid-1989 and used up thru 1994. This version uses a shift solenoid for the reverse lockout function. Two shifting solenoids stay together on one housing which shifts forward gears only. Pressure line solenoid housing and solenoid has shift valve #79 reverse lock up valve. Lock up clutch housing and solenoid also shifting solenoid on forth gear If pressure regulator solenoid is in reverse housing and also they call it pressure solenoid housing how pressure solenoid could shift the reverse gear ? Always when I shift selector gear into reverse than drive shaft has dull thud. Maybe pressure solenoid should be at lock up solenoid place ?
Screenshot_20220108-120336.png

[whiskychaser]

Unless the TC solenoid is operated, the TC clutch will not apply

The E9 doesn't have a shift lockout solenoid - that is why it is a four solenoid valve body, not a five. You could get a clunk in reverse due to a worn guibo, driveshaft or diff.

[shogun]

see reply by whiskychaser in your other thread: quote
Unless the TC solenoid is operated, the TC clutch will not apply. The E9 doesn't have a shift lockout solenoid - that is why it is a four solenoid valve body, not a five. You could get a clunk in reverse due to a worn guibo, driveshaft or diff. unquote

[Annddrriy]

Torque convertor solenoid is operated when gear selector is set to position drive it locks the torque convertor clutch what it shouldn't do that at forward gear. It should turn on when speed over 90km/h. Pressure at pressure line 80-111 psi at idle when gear selector is set to position D. What pressure should be at clutch A when gear selector is set to position D ?
oil pump housing.png

[shogun]

The workshop manual has only this information for 4HP22/24 on page 24-00/3
connect hose with pressure gauge
remove pertinent plugs for pressure control testing on the transmission
1. pump pressure
2. clutch A
3. converter pressure

pump pressure
install adapter with seal on transmission
install adapter for converter pressure

pump pressure
position D, gear 1 , speed 700 - 1000 RPM, pressure 6.0-7.5 bar
position D, gears 2,3,4, approx 4000 RPM, 4.6 - 5.8 bar
position R, reverse, 700-1000 RPM, 11-13 bar

converter pressure
position D, 4th gear, converter locked, max. 0.7 bar

check, correct oil level with selector lever at P and engine running at idle speed.
car parked at level floor
the oil level should not be below ball 1 at the dipstick after a test drive and ATF temperature of approx. 40 DC. The oil level should be between the min and max marks at ATF temperature of approx. 80 degree C. Amount of ATF between min and max = approx 0.3 liter.

ATF level too high: strong foaming, ATF splash loss, high temperature when driving test, ATF lost via vent.

ATF level too low: valves rattling, foaming, engine slipping while driving in curves, general operating disturbances.

[Annddrriy]

Torque convertor solenoid is operated when gear selector is set to position drive it locks the torque convertor clutch what it shouldn't do that at forward gear. It should turn on when speed over 90km/h. Pressure at pressure line 80-111 psi at idle when gear selector is set to position D. What pressure should be at clutch A when gear selector is set to position D at idle 750 RPM ?

[Annddrriy]

Torque convertor solenoid is operated when gear selector is set to position drive it locks the torque convertor clutch what it shouldn't do that at forward gear. It should turn on when speed over 90km/h. Pressure at pressure line 80-111 psi at idle when gear selector is set to position D. What pressure should be at clutch "A" when gear selector is set to position D at idle 750 RPM ?
Screenshot_20220108-110019 (1).jpg

[shogun]

In Position D the A clutch is engaged. “A” = forward clutch
The workshop manual mentions for 4HP22/24 on page 24-00/3
connect hose with pressure gauge
remove pertinent plugs for pressure control testing on the transmission
1. pump pressure
2. clutch A
3. converter pressure

pump pressure
install adapter with seal on transmission
install adapter for converter pressure

pump pressure
position D, gear 1 , speed 700 - 1000 RPM, pressure 6.0-7.5 bar
position D, gears 2,3,4, approx 4000 RPM, 4.6 - 5.8 bar
position R, reverse, 700-1000 RPM, 11-13 bar

converter pressure
position D, 4th gear, converter locked, max. 0.7 bar

check, correct oil level with selector lever at P and engine running at idle speed.
car parked at level floor
the oil level should not be below ball 1 at the dipstick after a test drive and ATF temperature of approx. 40 DC. The oil level should be between the min and max marks at ATF temperature of approx. 80 degree C. Amount of ATF between min and max = approx 0.3 liter.

ATF level too high: strong foaming, ATF splash loss, high temperature when driving test, ATF lost via vent.
ATF level too low: valves rattling, foaming, engine slipping while driving in curves, general operating disturbances.

Engine Warm Up Cycle
The transmission shift points are modified after cold start to raise engine RPM during shifting. This allows for a faster engine warm up and reduction of catalyst warm up time. The TCM uses the transmission oil temperature information to determine the implementation of this function.
The warm up phase program will be terminated if any of the following conditions exist:
• The vehicle exceeds 25 MPH or
• Transmission oil temperature exceeds 60 Degrees Celsius or
• A Maximum of three minutes is exceeded

Pressure Regulation
Pressure regulating solenoids modify line pressure for hydraulic operation. Solenoids for pressure regulation are referred to as EDS valves in ZF transmissions. They are used to control main line pressure based on throttle position and engine load. On ZF transmissions, EDS valves are also used to control “Overlap Shifting”. This allows for improved shift comfort by controlling pressures during shifting. Depending upon transmission application, pressure regulating solenoids can be controlledusing Pulse Width Modulation on B+ or B-.
The TCM will increase line pressure by regulating current flow to the pressure regulator.
Current flow is controlled by pulse width modulation. When the duty cycle is low, the currrent flow to the solenoid is low. This allows spring pressure to close the valve. Therefore maximum line pressure is achieved. As the duty cycle increases, the current flow also increases. The valve opening increases, which allows pressure to be released through the pressure discharge which in turn decreases line pressure.
Main line pressure is also increased during failsafe operation and when needed during “Adaptive Hydraulic Pressure Control” functions. Mainline pressure will also default to maximum pressure when power to the TCM is switched off
http://www.e38.org/electran1.pdf

[Annddrriy]

Maybe something wrong in TCU. Oil pump makes normal pressure but lock up clutch solenoid is opereted for some reason and sending pressure to torque convertor through input shaft hole than lock up clutch engaged in torque convertor. When forward gear engaged at the same time lock up clutch engaged in torque convertor. Some test could be done by to put it ON/OFF switch on lock up solenoid. When speed over 90km/h turn switch ON for lock up clutch this way you save torque convertor wear and see clutch not engaged in forward gear.
This can only be achieved at higher engine speeds the torque converter clutch must be disengaged at low engine speeds to prevent stalling.
Pressure in torque convertor and clutch A at idle is different can not be same.
In Position D the A clutch is engaged. “A” = forward clutch
The workshop manual not mentions pressure in A cluch it mentions pressure line only. At idle 750 RPM selector D pressure in line pressure hole 80-111psi.

[shogun]

Try another (used) transmission control unit for a test , they are cheap, just make sure it fits from the part number, mainly the Bosch number.
Also test the speed sensor in transmission, I mentioned that several times already, best is to replace it against a new one.

Gearbox power flows
The following Figures show the power flow through the gearbox for each forward gear when D is selected, and for reverse. The key to the Item numbers on the Figures, and in parenthesis in the accompanying text, can be found on
the 'Sectioned view of gearbox' Figure, above.

1st Gear (D selected)
Clutches (4) and (11) are engaged. The front planet gear carrier of gear set (9) locks against the gearbox housing through freewheel (15) when the engine powers the vehicle, and freewheels when the vehicle is coasting. Gear set
(10) rotates as a solid unit with the front planet gear carrier. In 1st gear hold brake clutch (8) is applied to provide overrun braking.

2nd Gear (D selected)
Clutches (4), (6), (7) and (11) are engaged. Freewheel (15) overruns. The hollow shaft with the sun wheel of gear set (9) is locked. Gear set (10) also rotates as a solid unit.

3rd Gear (D selected)
Clutches (4), (6), (7) and (11) are engaged. Freewheel (15) overruns. The hollow shaft with the sun wheel of gear set (9) is locked. Gear set (10) also rotates as a solid unit.

4rd Gear (D selected)
Clutches (4), (5), (7) and (12) are engaged. Freewheels (14), (15) and (16) are overrun. Gear set (9) rotates as a solid unit. The hollow shaft with the sun wheel of gear set (10) is locked.

Reverse gear
Clutches (5), (8) and (11) are engaged. The front planet gear carrier of gear set (9) is locked. Gear set (10) also rotates as a solid block

https://dokumen.tips/reader/f/automa...box-zf4hp22-24

[whiskychaser]

What indications are there that the TC clutch is being applied when it should not be?

[Annddrriy]

Indications coming from torque convertor clutch material sticks to magnet in oil pan not a lot as in forward gear clutch A. When lock up clutch engaged on 4th gear only it should be minimum wereness material on magnet. After 10.000 km oil pan was removed and checked for wear there was a lot worn clutch material on the magnet from clutch A. Torque convertor also smell burn out.