Transmission case sleeves, ZF 4HP22/24 EH valve body questions

[Annddrriy]

may be error may be not without trying you won't know how the system runs. Going to roll back when starting on a hill when brakes are released ? Car equipped with two brakes one is stainless steel wire hand brake which applies brake shoes to the brake drum another is foot hydraulic brakes you can use one of those if you don't want to roll back on a hill.

[Annddrriy]

I did not considered lubrication if there is no pressure. I think torque convertor always in oil inside even if there is no pressure that wan't change any thing just free spin without engaging lock up clutch except in forth gear.

[whiskychaser]

It may also be worth considering that if the relationship between the input and output shaft speeds is not what the TCM expects, it will throw transprog. Will be interesting to hear the outcome

[Annddrriy]

Yes exactly I was thinking about that output shaft spins a bit slower than torque converter and the transmission speed sensor gives wrong signal to the TCM to shift a bit late. There is some other issues with the transmission sensor not touch the case properly it makes a bigger gap between pulse wheel and the sensor. There is a sensor plastic bracket always broke a part same thing with wire harness for the solenoids. I removed plastic from the connectors those broken plastic can block fluid flow.

[Annddrriy]

The relationship between the input and output shaft speeds always different except 4th gear with ratio 1:1 at speed above 90km/h.

[shogun]

The 4HP22/24 has only 1 sensor installed, the other signal comes from the crankshaft position sensor. Excerpt from ZF info:
Turbine Speed Sensor:
The Turbine Speed Sensor is used to provide input (turbine) shaft speed information to the TCM (EGS). The input shaft speed signal is used in conjunction with the output shaft speed signal to determine gear range and slip time information for processing in the TCM. Not all BMW transmissions use a turbine speed sensor. Some TCM’s use the TD (engine speed) signal to determine input shaft speed. All transmissions with the exception of the A5S325Z use an inductive type sensor which generates an AC analog signal. The A5S325Z currently uses a Hall Effect Turbine Speed Sensor which will send a digital square wave signal to the TCM.
4HP22/24 (EH), A4S310/270R: These transmissions do not use a Turbine Speed Sensor. The TD signal is used to determine input shaft speed. The TD signal is an output signal of the DME control unit.
A5S310Z, A5S325Z, A5S440Z, A5S560Z, A5S360/390R: These transmission use a turbine speed sensor. The TD signal is also used with the turbine speed signal to allow the TCM to monitor Torque Converter Clutch operation. The TCM can control torque converter clutch slippage and also monitor for faults.
Output Shaft Speed Sensor
The Output Shaft Speed Sensor is used to provide output shaft speed information to the TCM. The output shaft speed signal is used in conjunction with the turbine speed signal to provide the TCM with information on gear ranges and slip times.
All BMW electronic transmissions have an output shaft speed sensor. The output shaft speed sensor is an inductive type which will generate an AC analog signal to the TCM. The frequency and amplitude of the signal will increase as output shaft speed increases. The exact location of the output shaft speed sensor varies by transmission model.

[Annddrriy]

TD signal works together with Crank signal they both meet in ECU than ECU gives signal to TCU time to shift ? The signal comes from crank shaft sensor that is for timing and for RPM gage. What do you think crank shaft sensor send signal to RPM gage or ECU does that ?

[whiskychaser]

TD signal is a DME output. The DME does not control shifts, the TCM does

[Annddrriy]

TCM does control shift from transmission output sensor. What is TD DME output signal that time doing when TCM are ready for a gear shift ? Looks like DME also gives a little signal what is going on with torque convertor load ? Could be vehicle speed sensor working with transmission output sensor the VSS gives signal to cluster gauge and cluster gives signal to TCU for control shifts if one of those are not in good shape could be slow or late shifts.

[whiskychaser]

Page 42 here explains which signals are exchanged between the DME and TCM:

http://www.e38.org/electran2.pdf

[Annddrriy]

Page 42 explains about CAN bus communication between two ECU and TCU in newer model bmw. We are talking about BMW E32 1990 don't have CAN bus option but it has few wire connected from ECU to TCU some of them go from ECU 51 and 54 pins also pin 32 which is fuel rate input and pin 3 fuel pump relay control from ECU to TCU it kind small mini bus communication built in both computers through few wires. ABS & ANTI THEFT(OWA) pin 38 also has a little signal to TCU from ABS wheel pulse sensors.

[shogun]

page 42 also refers to earlier systems if you read it all, copied:
On earlier EGS systems, various signals were transmitted on individual signal wires. This reduced reliability and increased the amount of wiring needed. The CAN bus allows faster signal transmission and increased versatility. For example, the signals listed in the chart below were previously transmitted on individual wires, now these signals are all on the CAN bus. This chart represents only some of the signals on the CAN bus, there are many more signals transmitted between the TCM and ECM.
Sender......... Information Item..... Receiver............ Signal Use
ECM.......... Engine Temperature....... TCM ...........Shift Point Calculation
ECM ..............Engine Load (tL)........ TCM........... Shift Point Calculation
ECM ...............Engine RPM (TD)....... TCM........... TCC Slippage
ECM............ Throttle Position (DKV)... TCM......... Shift Point Calculation
ECM .............A/C Compressor ON...... TCM........ Fine tune shift points to compensate for increased engine load.
TCM............. Transmission Range...... ECM......... Engine Idle Speed Control
TCM .....Torque Reduction Signal (ME).. ECM .....Timing Retard during shifts.
TCM ........TCC Lockup Status............. ECM....... Engine Timing Map adjustment

[Annddrriy]

4x4 community forum someone posted about valve body orifice drilled bigger size is that good idea to do so did anybody try it ?
118B0F20-DF76-4487-9844-C3DCD2F0B017 (1).jpg2123BB04-5669-4405-A499-403E62B601F0.jpgE2439F6D-920D-4D60-8B64-5AAEABBD9470.jpg
Screenshot_20211130-190447 (2).jpgnot sure if this is a C clutch accumulator hole which is coming from C clutch damper piston. This could be check it by put it wire inside and look where coming from.

[Annddrriy]

Screenshot_20211130-190447.jpg

[shogun]

4x4 community forum someone posted about valve body orifice drilled bigger size is that good idea to do so did anybody try it ?

I have no experience with that, always make it as original, you might try and test for the E32, 4x4 cars want versions for harsh driving environment, different from where our E32 is used.

[Annddrriy]

The reason for the automatic transmission is in emergency mode. Automatic transmission switched to emergency mode. Dull thud when the selector gear set to position D or R.
There are jerks when shifting gears. Typical problem is in TPS or in combination spring at valve body. Specially spring number 19 is to soft then when gear range switch is set to position drive that makes vehicle drag forward which is not supposed to be like that.
The problem is in the operation of the mechanical or hydraulic parts of the automatic transmission. In this case it is necessary to eliminate the problem at the root. The budget will be significantly different if the disease is eliminated early than if the box is ignored. Damage to the case malfunction of the clutches there are a lot of options here. It is necessary to remove the box and inspect each group separately.
Malfunction in the wiring. The TPS wiring could be the main problem for shifting gears. There is no good contact in the connection of the terminal switch block.
Malfunction or poor contact of the output shaft sensor. Diagnostics required: The electronic control unit receives an incorrect signal from the output shaft sensor or TPS.
Cylinder identification sensor if malfunctioning all the injectors spraying simultaneously.
Mass air flow.
Position throttle.
Other could be more difficult to check and find out without proper diagnostic tool.
For normal operation of the gearbox, there is a certain range of the required amount of transmission fluid. An abnormal oil level that can cause an automatic transmission emergency mode may be:
Overflow when the transmission is above the recommended level.
Underfilling which occurs when the amount of oil in the box decreases below normal.

[shogun]

Is your car really running in emergency mode? Does it really run only in 3rd gear? BMW puts the transmission into a "limp mode" when a transmission fault occurs. This keeps the transmission in 3rd or 4th gear depending on the transmission type/model.
Your car does not have a Camshaft positions sensor.
Your car does not have a Mass air flow , but an old style volume air flow sensor.
Did you test the pins at the transmission plug? All the data are in the ZF valve body file I posted to you several times already, also the data for the speed sensor in the transmission. Did you change the speed sensor meanwhile?
Did you test the throttle position sensor? Data I gave you yesterday in the other thread and they are in the Bentley repair manual.
I also informed you in the other thread how to test the air flow sensor, ignition wires, cylinder identification sensor, ignition coil, tank breather valve etc.
Transmission fluid level you can test, 4HP22/24 :
4HP22/24 with dipstick and filling from top thru dipstick pipe: 1988 E32 owners manual states on page 63: automatic transmission, checking oil level: the car must be standing on a level surface with the transmission at operating temperature 80 degree Celsius. Allow the engine to idle with the selector lever at P or N. Pull out the dipstick, wipe it with a non-fluffy cloth and push it back to measure the oil level. It must be between the two notch marks.
The quantity of oil represented by the space between the two marks on the dipstick is approx. 0.3 liter when the transmission is at operating temperature. If necessary, add fresh ATF at the oil level check pipe.
Start testing and find the faults

[whiskychaser]

The reason for the automatic transmission is in emergency mode. Automatic transmission switched to emergency mode. Dull thud when the selector gear set to position D.
There are jerks when shifting gears. Typical wrong problem.

When you turn on the ignition, the EGS does a self test. If it finds something wrong, it will throw transprog before you even select a gear. You will get only a high forward gear in D or reverse. So there will not be any shifting. The EGS stores a fault code when it throws trans prog. Reading the code should help pinpoint the issue but it may simply point out that there is too much slip in the trans - something which may be pretty obvious anyway. That said, you will not be able to read it with an OBD scanner - the system on your car will be ADS . Follow Shogun's directions and run the necessary tests. There is no substitute for a step by step diagnosis of the problem

[Annddrriy]

When turn ignition on didn't throw trans program. Dull thud when the selector gear is set to position D and begins to move forward without pressed eccelerator and sometimes slipping on forward gear. My friends car don't make dull thud and don't move forward before he pressed accelerator. This model don't do any self test if is car moving forward and backward the only test does when torque converter or forward gears clutch pack is gone and nothing left to make grip than EGS do self test trans program. What does EGS self test mean ?

[shogun]

EGS is German for Elektronic Getriebe Steuerung = transmission control unit.
AGS is German for “Adaptive Getriebesteuerung” or Adaptive Gearbox Control.
When you turn on the ignition, the EGS does a self test. If it finds something wrong, it will throw transprog in the instrument cluster before you even select a gear.

Both EGS and AGS have different driver-selectable shift programs. However, AGS can automatically adapt and select the appropriate shift program depending on driving style or operating conditions. AGS has everything that EGS has plus the following:
• Shift points adapted to driving style
• No upshifting when driving in a curve
• Auto determination and selection of winter program to improve traction (2nd gear start-up)
• Stop and go traffic auto recognition, eliminating 1st gear for improved comfort
Both EGS and AGS have adaptive hydraulic pressure control. Transmission slip ratio (input speed to output speed) and slip time (amount of slippage during a shift) are monitored by the TCM. By comparing target and actual slip, the TCM can adapt by modifying the pulse width modulation of the main pressure solenoid. This increases clutch apply pressures compensating for internal slip resulting from clutch wear and optimizes shift performance.

[Annddrriy]

Transmission slip ratio (input speed to output speed). Input speed for torque convertor to TCU coming from VSS or Engine ECU ?

[whiskychaser]

Transmission slip ratio (input speed to output speed). Input speed for torque convertor to TCU coming from VSS or Engine ECU ?

As confirmed in Shogun's post no. 36 above, the input speed signal (TD) is supplied to the TCM by the DME.

It may be worth mentioning that when the TCM throws transprog, all power to the VB is terminated. As there is now no control of the pressure, there is going to be a bit of a bump when selecting gear.

[Annddrriy]

What is different between those two throttle position switch for model M and EH one time I ordered from USA brand new came with housing. The sale man was ask me the question I remind now what type of transmission in the car I answered its automatic transmission than next question he asked Its manual gearbox or automatic transmission EH that time I did told him it’s automatic transmission electronic hydraulic. After few weeks I received the TPS with 6 pins which is for automatic transmission.

[shogun]

you can check that in the ETK, they have different part numbers, they are different, different connections, they cannot be mixed up as your automatic car has 6 pins
throttle valve switch 13631273265 Manual and 13631708605 Automatic EH
Manual has 3 pins https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/108...r-13631273265/
automatic has 6 pins https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/303...r-13631708605/

[shogun]

I have read of many cases where hard shifting came from defective throttle position sensors. On the German Forum someone even changed the transmission and the hard shifting still continued, he had measured the TPS, did not find any defective measurement, then he bought an original new TPS, installed it and the problem was gone. Maybe you buy a good, new, original TPS and test it.