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Thread: Another M62TU P0021 Thread with Weird INPA Reading

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by NolimitE39 View Post
    I haven't exactly figured out what or why but I'm under the distinct impression that bank 2 errors are compounded by bank 1 (that's assuming you didn't do what I did and pin the wrong hole). That's just conjecture for now and will probably remain as such since I don't have an m62tu on a stand to play with.
    It depends on the issue, but i think bank 1 timing issues are more likely to be compounded by bank 2 in some cases. Bank 2 is first in line on the timing chain.

    If i actually had a cam timing issue due solely to chain stretch, bank 1 would be effected more, and/ or first due to the longer chain length resulting in a greater degree of timing discrepancy. Since it only displayed in bank 2, i believe it's actually just an incorrectly clocked trigger wheel, likely due to a bad tool design, that showed up 30k miles later due to stretch.

    If the U guide fails, it can trigger a p0011 bank 1 cam timing code before any code related to bank 2.

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  2. #127
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    NoLimitE39 - I made some progress. Both cam positions are now fluctuating around zero! Both VANOS were functioning and car sounded great.

    Not completely fixed. P0021 came back, adaptations for bank 2 are 12° (adaptations for bank 1 are around -2°). So it looks like I just have a small adjustment to make to bank 2's sensor wheel.

    I didn't do anything that I would credit with fixing the unvarying cam position of 42° (3 of the adaptations of 12° are also unvarying, so I may not be out of the woods yet). I took the covers off and put the blocks back on the cams and wasn't happy, so completely re-timed everything. But seriously anally this time. Still not happy with my timing kit's sensor wheel jigs. Both feel like they could be fitted in a couple of different ways, resulting in different timing.

    Car started rough, smoothed out, cam positions on live data weren't great, but both VANOS were adjusting, then the P0021 came up and the VANOS's locked out. Don't know when I'll get time to take the rocker cover off and adjust the wheel. Kinda booked for the next few weekends.

    Not sure what help I can give. I did nothing beyond following the standard timing procedure, which you've re-done several times. Only positive I have for you is it seems the problem you have can be fixed without replacing parts - I just can't say how...

    Going to stop hijacking your thread and read some other threads of how to fine tune the timing wheel. Not sure if CW or CCW and if the 12° adaptation is truly the amount I need to adjust it by.

    I'm going to keep following this thread. I hope you can work out what's causing the symptoms. If nothing else, mine may yet come back 🤪

  3. #128
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    Hey I appreciate you stopping by with the update. Mine hasn't moved at all, been busy with projects on the house, and kids, and life. Did you clear your adaptations when you reset everything? Not a must but you should do it every time to adjust. IIRC when the freezeframe indicates retarded (-) you need to rotate CW. Might want to check me on that before you go moving things. As for replacing parts, I am pretty sure all the mechanical components on my engine are good (hell I'd be happy to replace a part and make it all go away at this point), I'm just crossing my fingers that I'm the arse and didnt pin it right every time previously. Good luck with yours, let us know when she's purring again.

  4. #129
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    Jdowns, what are you using for timing tools? Can you post a link and pic?

    Nolimit, you are correct if it showing retarded moving the trigger wheel CW would advance it.

  5. #130
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    JimLev - just the generic Chinese ones, MaxPeedingRods? I can not recommend. One of the tensioner retaining clips snapped. The solenoid socket was so poorly machined that it doesn't go on the solenoids and the timing wheel jigs are very poorly made - most of the bolts are proud of the main plate, so it can't be screwed down flush with the head - there's always some rocking. I ground the bolt heads down with a grinder for my 2nd attempt, and it seemed to help. Maybe.

    NoLimits - I took the ECM out to clean the contacts and that seemed to reset everything. For about 20 seconds after I started it, the solenoids were moving, but then they both stopped and haven't moved again. I tried to get Impa installed on a 64-bit laptop a while ago, but gave up when I realised I'd need to install a VM. I found a 32-bit laptop on the weekend, so I'll try again next days off. Does anyone know of another way to reset adaptations? Short out the ECM positive and negative terminals for 30 seconds or similar?

    Frustrating thing about mine is that it purrs like a kitten at idle (roughness is mostly 0 on all cylinders!), goes like a stung cat above 3K rpm, but is lacking so much torque before that. I can't help being worried that I've timed it too retarded, most people say they idle like crap if the VANOS doesn't work. My fear is if I've retarded it, then the VANOS kicks in and retards it more - valves kiss pistons... The cam lock blocks slid on sweetly and the pin was definitely in the TDC hole (used boroscope), so probably no need to worry....

    Will turn the wheel 12° CCW these days off and see if the P0021 error stays gone. Will let you know.
    Last edited by JimLev; 11-17-2021 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Can’t say that

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  7. #132
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    Looks like my wife was right and I stuck it in the wrong hole. . . . .

    I got the X buttoned up yesterday with the pin in the correct hole. Started with 1 crank after clearing adaptations and runs better than it ever has in my possession. I'm actually starting to think the chain stretch was affecting its idle because it used to have really bad hesitation on startup. So there you go folks. What we've learned is that 41.93 is the physical limit of the crank sensor, and that visual confirmation of TDC pin in flywheel is MUST.

    Also I want to give a huge shoutout to the Jim for sticking with me and to German Auto Solutions, the tool set is amazing, if used correctly the cam position and reluctor wheel placement are spot on. I checked the cam block fit with a feeler gauge against the head mating surface as an extra step and everything came out perfect. Hope this thread provides someone with some help or at least a chuckle at my expense.

  8. #133
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    Congrats nolimit, good to hear you found the right hole....sniff test? lol.
    I was starting to think you pushed it off the cliff.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Congrats nolimit, good to hear you found the right hole....sniff test? lol.
    I was starting to think you pushed it off the cliff.
    Thanks, and I would never do something like that, there aren't cliffs anywhere near me, although I did have the inclination to set it on fire in an open field a couple times.

  10. #135
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    Good to hear NoLimit!

    Logged on to let you know that I fixed mine as well. Got it down to 12° from 42, then just did as others have advised and marked the position of the wheel and made small adjustments. Got adaptations down to 2° and no codes.

    Thanks to everyone who helped with this thread.

  11. #136
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    Good to hear jdowns!

  12. #137
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    Bumping this thread as I'm having a nightmare with a 740i M62TU.

    Hi all, would really appreciate some help as I need to get this car running smoothly and without any codes to get it to pass emissions and just drive without hiccups!


    Background

    Car always ran smooth for about 20-30mins, then kicked on a really rough idle. Idle smooths out if you give a little throttle. Driving felt smooth. Always had a CEL and the codes were camshaft codes for both banks.

    First fix
    Re-timed engine. Crank at TDC, camshafts timed and fully retarded, VANOS wheels lined up all using the GAS master kit tools+instructions. All brand new gaskets and spark plugs too.

    Car ran great for about 15mins, then started idling rough again. Codes were 21 (Autologic) and/or P0011 (generic). Bank 1 codes only, bank 2 seems to be good.

    373466566_660353806053001_470114541697781095_n.jpg375703059_6547915365293776_2362740622343570341_n.jpg


    So then I read through this and other threads to look at the camshaft angle data before starting work. I'm confident the camshaft timing is correct and that I'm currently battling the vanos timing wheel or maybe something else.


    1st read:
    Camshaft, bank 1 28.77
    Camshaft, bank 2 0.04
    VANOS 1 94.90
    VANOS 2 94.90

    378133813_170924732653728_64554407042699747_n.jpg

    So, I set engine at TDC and then retarded the timing wheel to line up the hole with the torx bolt window in the upper timing cover (UTC).

    Car ran smooth, but code 21 still stayed. I got the following results:

    2nd read:
    Camshaft, bank 1 -19.97*
    Camshaft, bank 2 0.04
    VANOS 1 94.90
    VANOS 2 94.90
    *this number was pegged, it did not change at all. I'm thinking it was probably at the max reported value and the camshaft sensor could have been retarded way past -20°.

    So I then advanced the wheel by eye to find something in the middle. The hole in the wheel was no longer lined up with the UTC hole/window. I got the following results:

    3rd read:
    Camshaft, bank 1 -7.89
    Camshaft, bank 2 0.09
    VANOS 1 94.90
    VANOS 2 94.90

    Did one more adjustment by eye and got the following results:

    4th read:
    Camshaft, bank 1 -1.84
    Camshaft, bank 2 0.30
    VANOS 1 94.90
    VANOS 2 94.90


    Car still has the 21 code and will idle nicely for about 10-15mins, and then start running rough again.

    Here's a video after read #4. I show the code, the camshaft angles, the crankshaft angle , and VANOS test:




    Here's another video where the car was running fine and then starts getting rough (@0:22). You can see the data changing:





    I called it quits as I don't know what I'm battling here. Some notes and thoughts:


    1. There was a test that showed Crankshaft adaption values, I'm not sure if they're import or not, but; they all get stuck at 12 when running smooth, then stuck at -20 when running rough. You can see the test in the videos above.

    2. The camshaft numbers do not change when hitting the throttle. Why? Is the VANOS being disabled? The engine sort of feels sluggish when trying to blip the throttle.

    Experiment
    I hooked up the scanner to a good running M62 car and the numbers looked as followed:

    Idle
    Camshaft, bank 1 0.00-1.00
    Camshaft, bank 2 0.00-1.00
    VANOS 1 94.90
    VANOS 2 94.90

    With some throttle
    Camshaft, bank 1 30.00+
    Camshaft, bank 2 30.00+
    VANOS 1 94.90
    VANOS 2 94.90



    3. I just about removed and reinstalled the valve covers 8 times now. The engine hasn't blown up, so my cam timing should be good, correct? Any reason I need to retime the whole thing again? The last few times I only removed bank 1's valve cover though as the code was only on that side.

    4. Is it normal to time this engine blindly like this? I used the best tools you can supposedly buy, but the first data read showed that the cam timing was too retarded.

    5. Do I advance the wheel one more slightly enough to try and get a 0.00 or even 1.00-2.00° reading? Will that completely change everything (eliminate the code, keep smooth idle forever, etc.)?



    Hope to get some feedback, I'll try to open it back up later this week or on the weekend. Thanks in advanced!
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  13. #138
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    If it ran good for 20-30 min that would indicate that something wasn’t tight and is now loose.
    Are you sure the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts were torqued to the correct values?
    When either bank fails to read correctly the DME shuts down the vanos solenoids from controlling the vanos, so what you are seeing is normal.
    You need to retime the motor, making sure you did everything correctly.

  14. #139
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    There was a recent thread with very similar symptoms.

    Two problems were found.

    Bent reluctor wheel

    Leaking oil distribution at vanos.

    If the vanos can't get enough oil pressure the car will determine the vanos isn't following orders and will shut down the vanos.

    One thing to consider especially if one bank isn't staying in line: OEM and not old chain tensioner. The chain is so long on M62 that slack in the chain is enough to make one bank lag behind the other.

    I've usually replaced the rectangle ring seals in the vanos oil distribution unit when doing chain guide jobs.

    Almost always I've had to replace at least one cps after the job, another thing to consider but that usually presents different symptom.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    If it ran good for 20-30 min that would indicate that something wasn’t tight and is now loose.
    Are you sure the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts were torqued to the correct values?
    When either bank fails to read correctly the DME shuts down the vanos solenoids from controlling the vanos, so what you are seeing is normal.
    You need to retime the motor, making sure you did everything correctly.
    Yes, everything was torqued to spec and triple checked the timing with the cam blocks 2-3 times. If I were to do it all over again, I would remove the bolts completely, brake clean them and use loctite. That's the only thing I would do differently.

    It always runs smooth on first starts and good for ~15mins until it starts running rough. Did you watch the videos posted?


    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
    There was a recent thread with very similar symptoms.

    Two problems were found.

    Bent reluctor wheel

    Leaking oil distribution at vanos.

    If the vanos can't get enough oil pressure the car will determine the vanos isn't following orders and will shut down the vanos.

    One thing to consider especially if one bank isn't staying in line: OEM and not old chain tensioner. The chain is so long on M62 that slack in the chain is enough to make one bank lag behind the other.

    I've usually replaced the rectangle ring seals in the vanos oil distribution unit when doing chain guide jobs.

    Almost always I've had to replace at least one cps after the job, another thing to consider but that usually presents different symptom.
    I check the wheel and it's pretty straight, no bends.

    Would that leaking oil distributor throw any codes? Is this part internal or external?

    The engine was has all new guides and chains, etc. from previous owner. New CPS as well. But either the timing is something else is off.
    Last edited by theshafro; 09-18-2023 at 10:43 AM.
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    No codes directly related just cam can't follow directions error.



    This is the part. Internally uses rectangular "torturous path" method of seal (no actual compression on the sealing surface just very close fit). When the seal wears oil can go past too fast and loss of pressure to vanos gear.

    The other thing that can directly affect is the check valve. I replaced when doing chain guides. If PO didn't that's high on the suspect list.

    You should have enough oil pressure if one bank is ok but it would be good to confirm. No PID for pressure on M62 so need to hook up an external gauge.

  17. #142
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    Theshafro, what year is your engine? The oil distribution above that Andrew posted is the newer design that has the black teflon coating. The older design didn’t have the black teflon coating which causes the ID to wear grooves in it from the 3 rings on the ends of the intake cams.
    There is a one time use metal gasket that seals the distribution unit to the head. Was that replaced?
    At a hot idle your oil pressure should be 8-10 PSI and quickly rise to 40+ when you rev the engine.

  18. #143
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    So funny enough, I actually replaced this part on bank 2 because the threaded boss snapped on me when installing the VANOS solenoid. I used the part off a spare M62 sitting in the shop. But I'm currently battling bank 1, is there any way to check this part? Removing it is tricky because the VANOS gear has to come off.

    Which check valve? On the oil filter housing?
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Theshafro, what year is your engine? The oil distribution above that Andrew posted is the newer design that has the black teflon coating. The older design didn’t have the black teflon coating which causes the ID to wear grooves in it from the 3 rings on the ends of the intake cams.
    There is a one time use metal gasket that seals the distribution unit to the head. Was that replaced?
    At a hot idle your oil pressure should be 8-10 PSI and quickly rise to 40+ when you rev the engine.
    I believe it's a 2000.

    I just checked the part that broke and it does not have the teflon coating. The one I installed from the spare engine also didn't have a teflon coating.

    I did replace the metal gasket though.

    Where are you checking the oil pressure from? Putting a gauge at the oil filter housing?
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  20. #145
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    Yes, check oil pressure at the pressure switch on the oil filter canister.
    A 2000 tu engine should have black teflon coating on the distribution units.
    You can see the grooves that are worn in this non coated part.
    The check valve is behind the vanos solenoid.
    Ignore the red arrows, they were for another user problems.

    DSCN0461b.JPG

  21. #146
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    Okay, actually just found out the car is a 2001. So, weird how it has the older pieces.

    Would a good oil pressure test rule out the valves and distribution pieces? Or could they still be an issue?
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  22. #147
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    I think primary oil pressure could be fine, and you could still be losing oil pressure at the bank 1 VANOS. In the earlier distribution pieces, those oil seals on the cam snouts (which function like piston rings) could wear grooves where the cam snout rides in the distribution piece (see Jim's photo). With severe enough wear, you could fail to supply sufficient oil pressure to drive the timing change in the VANOS.

    Sorry if I missed it, but have you checked the VANOS units' proper function and/or considered rebuilding them? I recommend also the following work in this area:
    1. Replace the cam seals (6x)
    2. Check the proper function of the check valves behind the distribution pieces
    3. Replace o-rings on the check valves (2x)
    4. Replace the distribution piece gaskets (2x)
    5. Inspect the bores in the distribution pieces where the cam snouts ride


    Quote Originally Posted by theshafro View Post
    Okay, actually just found out the car is a 2001. So, weird how it has the older pieces.

    Would a good oil pressure test rule out the valves and distribution pieces? Or could they still be an issue?

  23. #148
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    How long have you had the car and been driving it before the timing code popped up?
    Whatever you do don’t put any thread lock on the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts.

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    Amen to the thread lock. I almost broke t55 sockets who thread lock!


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    Quote Originally Posted by dtw View Post
    I think primary oil pressure could be fine, and you could still be losing oil pressure at the bank 1 VANOS. In the earlier distribution pieces, those oil seals on the cam snouts (which function like piston rings) could wear grooves where the cam snout rides in the distribution piece (see Jim's photo). With severe enough wear, you could fail to supply sufficient oil pressure to drive the timing change in the VANOS.

    Sorry if I missed it, but have you checked the VANOS units' proper function and/or considered rebuilding them? I recommend also the following work in this area:
    1. Replace the cam seals (6x)
    2. Check the proper function of the check valves behind the distribution pieces
    3. Replace o-rings on the check valves (2x)
    4. Replace the distribution piece gaskets (2x)
    5. Inspect the bores in the distribution pieces where the cam snouts ride
    I have not checked the VANOS directly. I'll try to check all those parts if I open her up again sometime soon. I'm close to torching the car lol

    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    How long have you had the car and been driving it before the timing code popped up?
    Whatever you do don’t put any thread lock on the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts.
    About a year maybe? Okay, I watched a video of someone saying to do it and since you thought one of the bolts was coming loose that I would do it next time around.
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