Member
I did ohm all of the CmPS and VANOS Solenoid wires with the car of and cold and after letting the car warm up and the readings were all within a few tenths of an ohm. I will try unplugging the VANOS solenoid and record the response. I know I've already done it but I don't remember what the car did. I did read up some more on the VANOS control and the degrees reported by INPA/Testo are degrees crank so the camshaft degrees would be 20.965 which is in the realm of believable for the VANOS. That said if the VANOS are adjusting to 41.93 degrees crank that means that they are retarding to 20.965 degrees cam which would mean that the VANOS is installed over advanced by 20 degrees on the cam but the trigger wheel is in the correct orientation and the car is using the VANOS to compensate. NOW THIS is in the realm of reality but could only happen if there was quite a bit of chain slop when assembled. I did follow the instructions to a T but I didn't check for chain slop on assembly. Plus if this was the case when I open it up after running it the bank 2 intake timing tool shouldn't slide on and should require me to turn the cam 20 degrees CCW which I haven't had to do. Per the BMW literature the VANOS can operate 20 degrees in either direction so under this assumption maybe i'm the biggest idiot on this forum and have managed to screw up the mechanical timing more than once.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by slotted adjusters? The shutter wheels cant be installed mirrored/flipped because they are indented in the center, there isn't enough bite for the nut if you flip the wheels and try to secure them. I am open to any and all suggestions at this point and am trying to answer as directly as possible just to ensure that there is nothing left out or misunderstood so please don't take offense if anything come off as short or rude. I'm using the GAS tools which are very clearly marked and impossible to mix up unless one cant read and doesn't know numbers or which bank is which.Originally Posted by jicaino
Member
I didn't follow all that. Not that I need to. As I read the BMW lit, the VANOS units advance the intake cams from a default retarded setting at idle, up to a maximum of 20 degrees. (Not 20 degrees in each direction.)
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
You can’t install the vanos wrong, anyway it ends up on the cam is the correct way. It’s the trigger wheel (slotted adjuster) position that determines everything.
More dumb questions...
The square ends on the back of the cams were facing up E1-4, A1-4 etc on all 4 cams, right?
No oil film between the end of the vanos and the end of the cam or on the vanos bolt when you torqued it?
Torque wrench is close to accurate?
If you watch my video again you’ll see how I keep the chain tight.
If you were closer I’d come over and give you a hand, I like challenges.
- - - Updated - - -
Correct
Member
You are right, I reread the doc, the 40 degrees refers to crank rotation which translates to 20 degrees cam.
In short what I was saying is having figured out that the 41.93 number in INPA/TestO is crank angle makes it more believable that it could be a mechanical timing issue since that equates to 20.965 degrees cam (So maybe mechanically the VANOS are capable of a marginally more than 20 degrees adjustment). So if somehow I had a bunch of slop in the chain between Bank 1 intake gear and the crank then Bank 1 cam would be over retarded and would require advance which the VANOS system is doing at essentially 100% duty cycle and spitting out the 41.93 number of crank angle.
How I could have possibly done that I don't know because even 20 degrees of rotation of the gear equates to like 2 links in the chain which would create very noticeable slop. We'll see when I tear it apart again.
Yes to all of the above, almost new torque wrench.
I'll rewatch your video again when I'm about to do the deed just to make sure I don't miss anything.
Last edited by NolimitE39; 06-10-2021 at 01:16 PM.
Member
Nolimit, there are a couple of things that I'm still puzzled by.
In one recent post you suggested the cams might have different timing from the trigger wheels. And you suggested that the VANOS system might be advancing the timing, perhaps all the way even at idle, to compensate.
I thought the CPS reading of the trigger wheel was the only way the car knows anything about the cam timing. Of course, having a cam and trigger wheel timed differently could easily cause poor running, and other issues. But if the trigger wheel is where it needs to be and the VANOS system is able to advance it when and as it wants to by advancing the cam, then I thought there shouldn't be any code.
I also thought the system was using pretty simple logic. It looks for proper timing at each point when the solenoids are not being activated and when they are. And the solenoids are activated only within the rpm range specified. I didn't think the system was designed to advance a cam at all outside the target rpm range. So if it thought the trigger wheel was mistimed at idle, it would just pop a code and deactivate the VANOS system.
The different readings that you're getting between the two banks is also puzzling. Makes me wonder about Dinan's mods to the DME. But again, there's no reason to think the DME should behave differently. And clever as Testo is, we know it is a non-BMW hack that has some unexplained timing/reporting issues. So some of the odd readings could just be that.
Last edited by R Shaffner; 06-15-2021 at 07:19 AM.
Member
1. Correct, the trigger wheel is the only way the DME gets any information on the angle of the cam. Here's my thought process: If one was to set the cam with the timing block in the "correct" position but have slack in the chain between the B2 Intake cam gear and crank and secure the cam gear in this position then that cam would be retarded in relation to the crank. The trigger wheel installed with the timing tool at this time would then be in the "correct" position in relation to the cam. Then once the engine is started and the VANOS advances the cam's position in relation to the crank the cam and trigger wheel are now in the correct position in relation to the crank. The VANOS has essentially eaten up the xx degrees of retard that the chain slack created. This then allows the engine to run properly but because the DME knows that the VANOS is having to compensate it is presenting the code.
2. The above is theoretically possible only if the DME has programming in it to attempt correction. The accepted understanding between all of us is that the M62tu VANOS system deactivates as soon as it senses the trigger wheel and hence the cam is out of the acceptable position (10 degree threshold as stated by some of the more knowledgeable members around). In my case however it doesn't seem to be shutting off. Maybe its related to the DINAN software or maybe its a 4.6iS thing.
3. Though TestO is a third party software the readings its outputting are confirmable with my INPA readings so I trust what I'm seeing so far.
At this point all this is at best educated guessing. Either way, you are correct on all accounts but as Sherlock Holmes said "Once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
I appreciate you gents keeping the thread alive and I promise that I will get the car running right even if I don't ever discover specifically what the issue is though more and more I suspect that I left slack in the chain between bank 2 and the crank when I replaced the bank 1 distribution piece.
Headliner Hipster
Maybe you can flash the latest SW for your car in a spare DME, virginize it and test if it's really the Dinan sw interfering. I highly doubt it but at the same time it's the only thing you've left unrevisited so far.
I apologise for the piss poor suggestion of installing trigger wheels backwards, I noticed they could be flipped while inspecting my car and made a mental note, didn't actually try to install them backwards to realize bolt doesn't catch.
Diehard E39 driver.
I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
"Your momma's so ugly she makes Bangle cars look nice"
Member
Not at all something you should apologize for, I've installed all sorts of stuff backwards, flipped, and just plain wrong in my life. If I had another m62tu DME laying around I may have tried this but given how seemingly touchy the Bimmers are when it comes to the DME, EWS, etc. I'm not brave enough to pull the one out of my 540i/6. I think I've talked myself into this being a chain slack issue at the moment, just need to carve out a full day to do the work to retime it.
Member
UPDATE: I finally carved out enough time to get her opened back up. So my last hunch was spot on. The Bank 1 Exh and Int cams were dead on and the tools slipped on dead flat (intake was turned manually until it stopped), the Bank 2 Exh and Int cams were both ~20* retarded (didn't measure the exact angle, I eyeballed it, it was enough for me). The two contributing factors it appears were:
1) When doing the timing the previous times I didn't have the chain tensioner tool as tight as I should have. I was scared to overtighten it previously because of all the warnings in the GAS and Beisan instructions. This time I almost bottomed the tensioner bolt to the tool body, the fact that the chain has had a chance to run some and rotating the engine a few times by hand while taking up the slack helped settle everything prior to timing the engine.
2) Turning the crank CCW even the slightest bit creates a big enough difference in the position of the chain and the relative position of the cams which likely made up the rest of issue. If you miss the mark when trying to set TDC DO NOT ROTATE CCW, turn the crank CW the entire 720 degrees!
Further I will state the hypothesis that the 41.93 crank degrees which coincides 20.965 cam degrees is in fact the physical limit of the VANOS. Which makes sense because for proper operation of 20* adjustment 2.5% is an acceptable added engineered tolerance. No one has ever shown more than 41.93 and 41.93 has appeared often enough to confirm that its not random.
Now I won't know for certain until its buttoned up which should be this week but I at least have now witnessed a physical reason that aligns with the issue I was experiencing. I hope this helps someone in the future.
Lastly, the one piece of advice I could give to someone doing this for the first time is to get someone experienced with this particular engine to help you. I've built plenty of vehicles in my life including engines of all configurations from a bare block and this one took me a while to figure out, perhaps due to some mechanical arrogance.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Thanks for the update.
What made you turn the engine CCW.
Headliner Hipster
Good to know you finally found the issue. I was on the right track asuming it was something really simple taht had slipped thru. I've seen it happen multiple times and have it happening to me, and it's very frustrating.
Diehard E39 driver.
I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
"Your momma's so ugly she makes Bangle cars look nice"
Member
When setting it to TDC in my previous attempts I'd always miss the mark some because the sight angle is pretty bad in the X5 and coupled with the crank pulley extension for the SC Belt there is very little crank bolt to grad onto so the socket slips unless you pay attention and apply constant pressure to the ratchet in your hand while turning instead of watching the mark on the pulley. So to set it right I'd always turn it CCW just enough to get the pin in.
I would say that my inexperience with this particular engine and my lack of understanding just how precise the timing operation are to blame here. The tools (GAS Master Set), the procedures (when followed to a T), the mechanical components, are all top notch. I'm mostly just an arrogant DA in the face of mechanical things sometimes.
Last edited by NolimitE39; 07-12-2021 at 04:48 PM.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Thanks for the explanation, I’ve never timed an X5 engine, done a lot of 540tu engines.
Headliner Hipster
I'd never rotated CCW when I missed TDC. Have done a bunch of other stupid things, tho
Diehard E39 driver.
I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
"Your momma's so ugly she makes Bangle cars look nice"
Member
Well, you got to the bottom of it, and fixed it. Satisfying in the end. And we learned from it. Thx for sharing. Hope it all goes easy from here.
Member
The conventional wisdom is 'never turn crank CCW' and if you follow that advice, you can never lose. Think about 'any generic OHC' engine. As you turn the crank CCW, you'll see that the tensioners/guides/idlers/whatever significantly slacken, as the resistance on the chain is now acting in the opposite direction from what was intended. Think about what this does to the relationship between the pistons (position is dependent on crank) and the valves (position is dependent on camshafts). The static timing has essentially been changed.
On a really nervous engine, you can actually cause valve/piston interference on CCW rotation because the clearances are so narrow. I used to run into this on some really high-strung/heavily modified 911 engines. High lift, long duration cams and highly aggressive compression ratios. On those engines, I just never ever went CCW. Just had to suck it up and turn CW through 720' again if I over-shot. Not worth the risk for thousands of dollars in shiny new parts and and dozens of hours of labor.
In this case, where we're talking about a relatively lazy modern EFI engine, interference is not a major risk. What you are trying to do in this case, is have the cams and crank in proper 'natural' relation to one another as you approach TDC, verify timing, and torque everything down. If you approach TDC from CCW rotation, that relationship will be messed up for reasons discussed above.
On M62 and N62 and other lazy engines, I have used CCW rotation plenty of times when I didn't care about valve timing. Example: just did valve stem seals on N62. In this case. I needed to set TDC multiple times on each piston but really didn't care what the valves were doing as long as they were 'in the ballpark'. If I over-shot with CW rotation, I would be lazy and fine-tune with CCW rotation. Later in the job, I was replacing some cam and ValveTronic parts and this required re-setting the cam timing. For that, CCW was completely off the table and I rotated the engine CW through at least 720' before slapping on any timing tools. The idea was to make sure the crank and cams had re-established their normal operating relationship, as established via the timing chain and supporting parts.
All of this rambling and nerdery to say - there's times when you can get away with CCW rotation but there is absolutely zero downside to just following the rule of 'always CW, period'. Anyway, I have followed your thread with interest and hope that this means you are back on the road soon.
Member
DTW,
All of that makes perfect sense, its the same conclusion I came to when I finally sat down and sketched out the operation both of the engine in time and the setting of the timing. My inexperience with chain drives was the weakest link here. Every single other engine I've ever touched has been belt timed, there you count the teeth/cogs and usually have alignment markings on the crank, cam/s, and belt so you can rock the engine in either direction when setting timing and still get it right. Another point you made is spot on too, I got lazy, I knew the proper way to do it but though my shortcut was ok because I'd done it so many times before (on belted setups). Regardless, thank you, and I certainly do hope that this is the last of it. I'm about 45 minutes of wrenching from being able to start it (to confirm operation) and about 3 hours from it being back on the road and I am definitely holding my breath.
Member
Lazy wrenching can bite us, right?! It is one thing to turn an engine through 720' on a nice clean engine stand - but doing it in-car and risking the skin on your knuckles every time is another.
Way to stick with this. I might have caved and towed it to my indy by now.
Headliner Hipster
This is all good advice. Also, if you ever need to go CCW for any reason, (minus on those high CR/potential valve timing even disaster engines) you go back more than you need and then readjust. Like, at least 180° off CCW and then approach the TDC mark CW again to try'n compensate for chain slack. Even the minute amount of sclack present even in a new chain will eff up your cam/crank timing and valve event timing.
Diehard E39 driver.
I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
"Your momma's so ugly she makes Bangle cars look nice"
Member
BACK AT IT!!!!
Since posting last I have retimed the entire engine 3 more times (definition of insanity) with the GAS Master tool set. I couldn't be more certain that the physical/mechanical timing is correct. I have rotated by hand, opened/closed/sealed/re-opened the engine and confirmed after running that the timing is set properly. Could this really be the difference? We're talking a millimeter, I've compressed the hell out of the gasket, is the sensor too close to the center hub of the reluctor and reading a constant signal? bank one is not having the same issue.
I have reseated the UTCs multiple times. I have Victor Reinz UTC gaskets installed currently and have a set of Genuine BMW ones on the shelf that just arrived yesterday.
The Reluctor wheels are straight and true.
The CPS works, I have 4 that I have swapped around, they all read properly on Bank 1 so they are all confirmed working.
The wiring (3 wires from connector) has been traced back to the ECU and confirmed to be good. I have ohm'd the wiring both cold and hot and the readings are miliohms (acceptable range)
The ECU appears to be free of any damage based on a visual inspection. I haven't tested any of the circuits nor do I have the electronic knowhow to do so proficiently at this point.
In its current state Bank one is producing a code 33 with between -6 and -8 degrees at the recorded event. I haven't fine adjusted the reluctor on bank 1 since the last round of timing. This reading is in line with what INPA is showing me in live data.
In its current state Bank two is producing a code 34 with 0 degrees at recorded event. Live readings in INPA are showing 41.93 with zero fluctuation. I have been able to get the live readings to do exactly what they are supposed to by loosening the bolt and moving the CmPS on Bank 2. The live readings at idle were in the -5 to -7 range. Thus far I've been able to maker this happen once, the sensor was pulled approximately 3mm out of fully seated position. I can make the sensor change readings by removing it with the engine running and waving a metal tool in front of it. As such I am operating under the assumption that the sensor and circuit works properly. And since I was able to get the sensor to produce correct readings by moving it this further confirms that that the physical timing is correct.
In addition to this (and possibly complicating the issue) I ham getting roughness readings of 600-800 on cylinders 1 and 2, the rest of the cylinders are below 500 with 3 or 4 staying below 250. I cannot get DIS/GT1 working because of complications with VMWare (I'm trying to figure it out). I am also currently downloading ISTA and should have it up and running by end of week.
So have at it folks. Thanks
Last edited by NolimitE39; 10-19-2021 at 09:33 AM.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
I’d forget about the roughness for now.
Can you read the values in Analog 3 with the engine off, (my post #9 above) just to confirm that those values are showing 0.
Member
The values with engine off are "0"
Member
Where did you get these 4 CPS (camshaft position sensor) ? Are they stamped BMW oem, or an after-market sensors or from a junkyard. There are only 2 cps on this engine.
Because error codes 33 and 34 indicate bad CPS, bad cps circuit / connections. And defective CPS do produce rough readings. I suspect you have a bad cps/circuit on bank-1 (cylinders 1-4),
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
33 is related to camshaft bank 1 timing.
34 is related to camshaft bank 2 timing.
113 and 114 would be cam sensor codes.
Chedley he has 2 engines, hence 4 cam sensors. They were working in both engines before he replaced the guides.
Georgia Car Scout
2 engines? How to diagnose one?
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