Interesting Hagerty Comparo Article on 1980s E30 vs MBZ 190E & Audi 80

[Tom325e]

Some of you might find this an interesting Hagerty Comparo Article on 1980s E30 vs MBZ 190E & Audi 80 - USA & UK/EU E30 owners alike!

https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-pr...ay_DailyDriver




>> PS - Don't worry about adding other content somewhat related, as this is meant to be a wider ranging discussion about E30s & other contemporary cars & toys used with them, etc. As OP - I'm not terribly worried about slightly OT posts, as long as they're tied back into E30s, and not offensive. - TT ///////

Enjoy!
Tom
///////

[Tom325e]

Here's another related Hagerty E30 Buyers Guide Article FYI -

https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-pr...-buyers-guide/

Good Luck for those looking!
Tom
///////

- - - Updated - - -

Here's Hagerty's BMW E30 Valuation Tool that I ran for my 1985 325e 2-door Coupe/Sedan, but you can restart it for whatever MY & Sub-model you have, or are looking at buying, etc. -

https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuati.../1985-BMW-325e

BTW - opening a free member account on there will get you the more detailed price evaluation & chart, etc.

Hope this helps some member E30ers!
Tom
///////

[Tom325e]

Some of you might find this an interesting Hagerty Comparo Article on 1980s E30 vs MBZ 190E & Audi 80 - USA & UK/EU E30 owners alike!

https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-pr...ay_DailyDriver



Enjoy!
Tom
///////

After reading this article - I'm glad that I did get the `85 325e Coupe with the 5 speed trans, and in 1985 (& 1984 IIRC) the 2dr "Coupe" 325e came with the "Sport" package options of the `86-87 325es included in the base price - which included the leather wrapped 3-spoke sport steering wheel & leather shift know & shift boot, the Recaro-made front bucket seats, plush carpets & floor mat set, 2-way tilting sunroof, the BMW-Bose AM/Fm/Cassette Audio, front & rear anti-sway bars, & the "bottlecap" lightweight alloy wheels - in addition to the "eta" 2.7L I-6 EFI motor with more HP & Torque than the base `84-85 318i I-4 1.8L, while getting about the same freeway mpg thanx to it's economical design (vs. the 318is 4 spoke wheel, flat front seats, etc. in this article). BMW did so in order to promote their new 325e models here in the USA - if someone were to opt for the 2 door "Coupe" 325e.

My 325e has the same "eta" engine that had debuted in the earlier & heavier 528e, but was a relative "Pocket Rocket" in its day - compared to it's 318i sibling, and the 325e handled much tighter thanx to its suspension tweaks over the base 318i & 4-door 325/325e siblings. It had about the same power-to-weight ratio as my 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 "914S" (with similar options included in the base price to promote this new replacement for the prior 1970-72 2.0L 914-6, as with the then new 325e model above) that I've owned as 2nd owner since 1975 (current slow resto project).

I must like it, because I've kept mine since I leased it new on 5/8/21 - 36 years a go later this week, bought it out of the end of the 3 year lease (economically I'd have been better off just buying it on a 7-8 year loan with payments over the same 3+5 years that way), and I keep putting money into keeping it up & looking nice, but we still use it & our 1988 VW Westfalia since new as our DDs, family cars, kids learing vehicles, & soon to be tow vehicle (Westy tows our vintage 1970 Eriba Puck so far since we got it in 2018, due to the lack of a factory set-up E30 Hitch, which I'm looking for elsewhere on here & other sites).

However, keeping cars is not unusual for me, since I've only owned 5 since my 1st in Fall 1969 - #1 was a used 1968 Opel Kadett 2dr 4spd 1.1L I-4 Notchback Coupe/Sedan, #2 was a 1969 Pontiac Ventura 4dr Hardtop (i.e.: coupe-like with no B-pillars) - both of which were sold in 1971 & 1976 respectively .... but I still own #3 `73 914-2.0, #4 ~85 325e, & #5 `88 Westy CamperGL Vanagon - the #4 & #5 daily drivers, & #3 pleasure as soon as its resto etc. work is done. We may be adding a Cayenne as #6 in coming months (sorry X5ers) as a 3rd driver & tow vehicle for our bigger restored vintage 1960 Avion T20 (looks like & an Airstream competitor).

It's amazing to us how popular the E30s have become in recent years - after car buffs decided they like the Classics.

My 1985 325e E30 2dr 5spd "Coupe" - Cosmos Blue over Pearl Beige Vinyl Leatherette:


0208151308 (2).jpg0208151308b (3).jpg

Cheers!
Tom
///////

PS - I'm writing "Coupe" or Coupe/Sedan in order to not rile up the "experts" on here who correct think that they are not a true Coupe without any B-pillars, but whom don't seem to have the same reluctance about calling the contemporary 633/635 2-doors Coupes - when they too clearly also have B-pillars as well.

As I learned it when I briefly studied Automotive Design in the late 1960s - before switching to Architecture - Automotive design technically terms a true Coupe as a No-B-Pillar 2 door, but rollover safety requirements long ago added the B-pillars, and BMW has no current problem in marketing their current & late model 4 & 6 Series 2 doors as "Coupes" - as they did in the sales literature for my 80's 325e 2-door Coupe.

TT ///////

[doctorx69]

i have Hagerty.... they valued my 87 325i vert at $14k.... even with the exterior needing some help. They said the values are going up fast.

[mbonder]

Interesting read, I think I would have said pretty much the same thing as the author did, although I've never been in the Audi 80, I have driven both the BMW and the Merc. I've always found Mercedes cars to be built more as cruisers and for comfort than BMW, which tends to be more sporty. The move to electronic power steering, much heavier vehicles, and way more electronics has dampened the overall driver's feel in the modern cars, but I think the comparison still holds true.

I've owned an e30 variant for nearly two decades now and will continue to do so, it's a timeless design and a true driver's car, I just can't say that I've ever been inspired by a Mercedes or Audi product in the same way.

[superj]

Me either.

The e30 is just a beautiful car that looks sporty anywhere you see one

[Tom325e]

Me either.

The e30 is just a beautiful car that looks sporty anywhere you see one

Says he without one! .... you guys need a "poke" smilie on here!

Okay, okay, you'll start combing SoCal whenever you're ready .... I know, just couldn't resist!


Tom
///////

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting read, I think I would have said pretty much the same thing as the author did, although I've never been in the Audi 80, I have driven both the BMW and the Merc. I've always found Mercedes cars to be built more as cruisers and for comfort than BMW, which tends to be more sporty. The move to electronic power steering, much heavier vehicles, and way more electronics has dampened the overall driver's feel in the modern cars, but I think the comparison still holds true.

I've owned an e30 variant for nearly two decades now and will continue to do so, it's a timeless design and a true driver's car, I just can't say that I've ever been inspired by a Mercedes or Audi product in the same way.

Well said mbonder!

My opinion of the MBZ & Audi too - get them for a Luxe posh ride - get the BMW & Porsche for more no nonsense performance ride!

And I also prefer the classic cars for the analog road feel & dynamics too!

Ergo, my 914, 325e & looking for a Cayenne over a MBZ or Q5/Q7 for an "extra driver" & tow vehicle for our bigger vintage trailer - the 20' 1960 Avion T20 (looks like Airstream, bt better made & better features, as per their old ads).


Tom
///////

- - - Updated - - -



Sometimes it's good to combine replies into one post - & other times is a NOT!

That was just stupid to combine those posts, because then the 2nd & later persons to whom you're replying cannot see that you've replied - nor are they notified of such AFAIK!

Another squirrely forum function on here!

NO Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom325e]

As another indication of the recent popularity of our E30s - is that the "Mallorca Files" Brit TV Show Features a Nice Black on Tan E30 Convertible with the stock "Bottlecap" alloy wheels - true to original form!

If this is old news to members on here from the UK &/or the EU - we get the UK & EU etc programming on a delay from your first run of this & other shows, & in the KCET case - it's just in 2021 tha our local KCET/KOCE PBS stations bought the airing rights to Mallorca Files.

So it's all new to me!

I'm not sure which model/engine & MY it is, but it's an Euro Pre-facelift version judging by the taillights - perhaps in the mid-1980s era.

IMDb says it's a 320i - & Ultimate Specs shows that as a smaller displacement M20 I-6 2.0L with 129 HP - so similar performance I'd expect to my USA '85 325e Coupe.

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...brio-320i.html

IIRC here in the USA we only had the 325i/is E30 Cabrios marketed here, and all were post-facelift era.








...


Even their show logo & intro prominently features the E30 Cabrio - although in cartoon form -

...



For the SoCal LA/OC/IE area locals interested in watching it - it plays here in SoCal at 10 pm Thursday nights on KCET Channel 28.1 (OTA & not sure what channels on Cable/Satellite/Streaming), which I only caught because I like Brit Detective/Mystery shows on PBS.

Google for it if so inclined, but here's the basic IMDb info link -
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9204128/



Cheers!
Tom
///////

[323i E30]

My wife watches that series every now and then.
The main character really loves the car, and instead of skipping to the next location there usually is a scene of him travelling to there, focusing on the E30. That E30 is also often used as a location for dialogue.
I’m not really interested in crime series, but I appreciate how they always put the car in the spotlights there.

[Tom325e]

My wife watches that series every now and then.
The main character really loves the car, and instead of skipping to the next location there usually is a scene of him travelling to there, focusing on the E30. That E30 is also often used as a location for dialogue.
I’m not really interested in crime series, but I appreciate how they always put the car in the spotlights there.

Yes - I agree - this is unusual how they have the E30 throughout each show. I almost like the show more for the E30 than the crime mystery - or at least as much!

Let me know when you get your E30 hitch installed with photos - but over on my other Looking for a Hitch topic.

You can also email me if you need the pdf Adobe files for your hitch & the supplement for the electrical. They're in your NE home language, as well as GB/UK English & several others - so it's their official installation instructions.

It looks like I may be getting the same Westfalia OEM E30 Hitch from a guy here in the USA, but my installation may need some different modifications for my pre-facelift metal diving-board bumper E30.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[323i E30]

Yes, will do. Thanks

[mbonder]

The convertible is an interesting one as they stayed with the early model cosmetics long after they switched to the later cosmetics on the 2 and 4 door sedans. So convertible still had the smaller taillights and metal bumpers into early 91, whereas the changeover to larger taillights and the updated front valence happened in 88 and the plastic bumpers arrived in 89 for the 2 and 4 door variants. You didn't see the facelifted convertible until the second half of 91 and then 92, the final year of the e30.

I'm fairly certain this was the same regardless of which side of the Atlantic you were, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. You also have the MTech variants of the convertible that came out at the same time as they switched to the larger taillights and plastic bumpers on the convertibles.

[Tom325e]

The convertible is an interesting one as they stayed with the early model cosmetics long after they switched to the later cosmetics on the 2 and 4 door sedans. So convertible still had the smaller taillights and metal bumpers into early 91, whereas the changeover to larger taillights and the updated front valence happened in 88 and the plastic bumpers arrived in 89 for the 2 and 4 door variants. You didn't see the facelifted convertible until the second half of 91 and then 92, the final year of the e30.

I'm fairly certain this was the same regardless of which side of the Atlantic you were, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. You also have the MTech variants of the convertible that came out at the same time as they switched to the larger taillights and plastic bumpers on the convertibles.

Yes - but that makes it harder to know whether it is an early 1985> up into early 1990s Euro version, since they kept the older styling longer on the convertibles in order to save casts. Ergo why I said that it could be an earlier MY car.

Interesting comment on the taillights - although AFAIK the taillights lenses & buckets were both the same dimensions overall - only the inboard white backup light lenses went from full vertical dimension to a 1/3 height horizontal lens-area, leaving more red lens area top & bottom of what used to be all white lens pre-facelift.

Is that what you meant by larger taillights? .... or am I wrong & the overall size of the lights/buckets changed?

Personally I prefer the larger backup light lens & reflector for backing, & the red running & brake light lens areas were more than adequate. I always took the lens redesign as some meaningless thing that the designers do midway in a model run to get a different look - just like the longer-narrower USA sidemarkers post-facelift vs the bigger & more squarish per-facelift which had better visibility at night.

On the midway facelifts the designers usually are stuck with the main body staying the same, & just doing piddly changes of minor items around the edges - so that leaves lights, grills, bumpers in most cases.

The biggest thing that surprised me about the E30 Convertibles was that BMW hung onto them for an extra 2+ years beyond the run of the overall E30 line - rather than bringing out the E36 convertible concurrent with that version's release.

While I love the E30 styling & performance - it just seemed like lazy engineering & business practice on BMW Management's part.

Of course this was the same management that allowed the Bangles & "Emerging Flame" faux styling BS earlier in the 2000's, & have now ruined the front end of the 4 series with that joke of an overwhelming Mack Truck kidney grill - what puke ruining an otherwise beautiful design!

Between that & serious quality control problems in recent years - I don't know what the heck BMW management & design leadership is thinking!?

Clearly opening up the "4 Series" was nothing more than a marketing ploy to create another model group within the same class & chassis as the 3 Series, which has proven true once they created the 4 door 4 Series, & the 2 door 3 Series is sure to follow.

While that gets them 2 model lines on almost the exact same chassis, but it may not be sustainable in the long term - as we saw with the demise of GM's Olds, Pontiac & now most of Buick, as well as for Chrysler's Plymouth, Ford's Mercury & short lived Edsel, etc., etc.


Tom
///////

[Tom325e]

Yes, will do. Thanks

Here are photos of the hitch that I'm hoping to get for my E30 - and it's ID Plate looks like the one that you showed me from yours, but you can compare part numbers & date whenever you get the opportunity to clean the black paint off of the top area of your tag.

00l0l_idBl5Fop8sn_0CI0t2_1200x900.jpg00z0z_34PUIs5RZnS_0t20CI_1200x900.jpg

I'll let you know when I get mine delivered, & we can certainly trade notes on installation tricks.

Also - depending on condition, you may want to have your hitch wiring harness rewired with fresh wiring in order to avoid issues later.

I'm going to check mine whenever I have it in hand for condition, & may have the guy who rebuilds the engine wiring harnesses for Porsche 914 here in NorCal USA rebuild it if he can, since he did a Concours worthy job on my 914's harnesses!

Cheers!

[Mikealwa]

I really like the Audi 80 and 80 coupe though, just look cool to me.

[Tom325e]

I really like the Audi 80 and 80 coupe though, just look cool to me.

Audi had that hot Quattro in the 1980s, which always seemed sporty for Audi standards, as well as their 4-door 5000 was good looking with the rimless windows and very low CD aerodynamics!





But those are different mission statements from our E30s.

And yes Virginia - the 5000's runaway acceleration was a real defect, which problem almost ended Audi because they denied & fought it too long, instead of just fessing up & fixing it as a voluntary recall.

I know of 2 Audi 5000 cases here in SoCal where Audi NA initially accused their longtime elderly customers of being senior citizen driver errors, when one of my buddies who was the service manager at Iverson Porsche+Audi in Newport knew that it was definitely was a multiple times reported problem by both of those owners. Audi NA lost both cases & paid both punitive damages for trying to defraud the victims, based on their local dealer's tech's testimonies. One went through her garage back wall, & the other off the Balboa Ferry back in the 1980s.

Audi's sales went south for 10-15 years - both due to the defect, but more so for the way they tried to blame customers & not fixing it when reported prior to those serious accidents.

VW was also terrible then too, because we had an obvious "Left Lean" to our 1988 Westfalia Vanagon that we continually reported to the VW dealer every time it was in during the 24mo/24Kmi warranty, which they'd always deny was leaning - even with any common person walking by could tell, or that it was "normal for the Campers" - even when none of the others on the lot did so, or just "we couldn't 'find' anything wrong"!

Decades later when my long time mechanic was rebuilding the F & R suspensions - the found that the problem was that VW had built our Westy with standard duty "Tin-top" passenger Vanagon springs - instead of the proper HD Springs for the Campers, Pick-ups & Parcel Vans (Transporters)!

All that the mechanics at Commonwealth VW had to do was check the part number &/or color of the paint spots identifying the springs on our Westy, then process the Warranty Repair - no skin off their nose! Idiots!

Of course when I found out the true problem in 2012 - by then there was nothing I could do against VW.

But when I took the Westy in for repaint after that for a repaint - the first thing my long time body guy & his son & daughter said was: "Your van doesn't lean anymore!"

She's nicely "rolling restored" now:
20161002_074709 (2).jpg
.


Back in the 1980's VW & Audi were really bad on quality control & reliability, as well as very poor customer service, such that they were forced to appoint a customer service representative service.

Click on the mandated 1988 notification ad pic below to read the text about VW's version of the 3rd party arbitrator by BBB - which VW made sound like it was their idea to offer Arb! LOL

VW Customer Service Ad 1988.jpg

Apparently V/A/P still hasn't learned that lesson, judging by DieselGate!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[mbonder]

Sorry missed the weekend--Yes, the taillights are different from early model and late model. The early model ones are not as tall top to bottom as the late model ones.

[Tom325e]

Sorry missed the weekend--Yes, the taillights are different from early model and late model. The early model ones are not as tall top to bottom as the late model ones.

No worries! Thanx for the Clarification.

Interesting - I'll have to get out the tape measure the next time I'm around a post-facelift E30 to get the differential on the height you mentioned.

My eyes aren't calibrated enough any more at my age to judge the differences, & I had just assumed that they were the same overall size - just with a differing lensing layout.

The different license plate heights aside - the Euro post-facelift E30 on the left vs. my `85 on the right - they look like the rear wall body panel stamping was also changed (assuming the Euro & USA versions were the same), but the difference in height must not be more than about 1/2" - 1" more in height or so. Side-by-side it's clear.

29095209368_3020ca58e7_b.jpg0208151308b (3).jpg


I personally prefer the shorter early taillights, because they make the E30s look wider, on a relatively narrow car body. To my taste - the larger taillight fills up too much of the rear end's face.

While the tighter/smaller Euro & USA post-facelift bumpers are nicer too - but I want to keep my 325e stock look, so I'll keep the metal diving board look.


However, an accident repair transplanted a later diving board bumper & end-closure with the wider-shorter side markers up front that I do want to put back to original larger side-marker style.


>> Anyone who has switched to Euro or post-facelift bumpers that has their original end caps can let me know, as I'm looking for both Left & Right sides complete with the sidemarker lights/housings/lenses! Just let me know! ...


Now hopefully the NOS pre-facelift Euro Taillight Lenses that I got for my `85 E30's rolling resto will fit properly!
Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Mikealwa]

Ha Tom, somehow I have two westfalias within ten blocks of me. Interesting to hear that brought up, never heard of em tell I've seen these two in my neighborhood...along with this random old yellow VW pick up truck. Anywho, sorry off topic.

[Tom325e]

Ha Tom, somehow I have two westfalias within ten blocks of me. Interesting to hear that brought up, never heard of em tell I've seen these two in my neighborhood...along with this random old yellow VW pick up truck. Anywho, sorry off topic.

Yeah Mike - No Problem by me as not being OT - AFAIK!

I don't see your Westfalias pic - so go ahead & post it back because I'm going to make in ON Topic right now.

So to bring a E30-to-Westfalia value comparo into the discussion - we bought both our 1985 325e Coupe E30 & 1988 Westfalia new, & have kept them long term, & I keep records binders on everything for all my cars, as well as having to account for them for my own business use. After about 20 years of care & feeding of both cars, I did a 20 year summary report in my Quicken Home & Business accounting program, & the VW Westfalia - which is a Vanagon Camper GL - cost 4x as much to maintain & repair, than our E30, with both about the same total miles - including a blown engine in the Westy (rod thru the case in 1999). Whereas, our 325e still has the original engine untouched at about 205,000 miles now - with only the 5-speed rebuilt, & some of the expected suspension wear items replaced (same for that on the Westy BTW).

So I'd always expected the BMW - being a Bimmer & far less problems & costs to keep up - to hold a higher value, than would a VW van. However, exactly the opposite is the case! Our Westy in current rolling resto & upgraded (mostly camping related add-ons) condition is in the $50-75K range, whereas my 1985 325e seems to be in the high $-teens for 3-5 condition according to the

The Westfalias have been strong & steady value growth since late 1990's or 2000 with almost a cult following, because you can daily drive them, then go off camping for a weekend or month in the same car/van. And while there were millions of Vanagons of all types, but mostly "Tin top" passenger Vanagons made - there were only a few thousand of full camper Westfalia Vanagons made worldwide each year, and fewer made it here to the USA new (I don't know the actual numbers exactly, nor has VW Classic been able to get them) - so they are truly low production vehicles.

PS - I forgot to mention that we've been seeing both the later 1980-92 MY Vanagon Westfalias - as well as earlier 1960s T-1 "Splitty" & 1970s T-2 "Bay Window" VW Bus Westfalias being used on all sorts of TV & print ads in recent years & now. So it's a bit like the E30 convertible becoming almost a 3rd star in the "Mallorca Files" detective duo TV show. But then, I'm the type who watches old movies & tv shows looking for what cool period cars, aircraft, etc. they have! LOL

Bottom line - while I'm glad that our beloved Westy van is worth more than we paid new - but NOT with the 33 years of maintenance/repairs & rolling resto costs added on top - - I really do think that our E30s are still way undervalued as excellent 1980s era Sports Coupes & Compact Luxury Sedans, Wagons, & fun Convertibles with really great driving characteristics.

I also feel that there is too much of a tunnel vision for only the later "Sixes" & M versions, because the later 325i/is was not enough of a difference in performance when I drove them new, for me to make the switch in 1988-90 when I was at the point to buy out my initial lease, & I ended up keeping our 85 325e .... although a 528/535/540 Touring WAGON did get some attention from the Missus with our growing family.

In fact, IMHO the Eta Six in the 325e & 528e is an engineering marvel, producing great performance for the day with good torque at low RPM (especially for a non-turbo), while giving excellent highway mpg that my personal records on long trips was in the 30+ mpg in the 55-65 mph range (less as you push the speed though).

In fact - there was a lot of talk about Hyper-miling other cars during the 2000's $4-$6 per gallon gas price run-up, but for an entirely different reason based on a navigational brain fart by me - I had to Hyper-mile my 325e through the SoCal Desert from Palm Springs to Blythe on less than half a tank indicated, & the OBC range/mpg computer showed 51 mpg when I finally reached the 1st gas station in Blythe CA on fumes!

So what other BMW 6 can give good performance with up to 51 mpg!!??

Here is a pic our `88 Westy with our vintage 1970 Eriba Puck in tow - I call this Rig "Repetitively Redundant" because the Puck is essentially the same camper set-up as the Westfalia from behind the front seats - as well as a pic of the "twins" -

20181027_100021 (2).jpg0208151308b (2).jpg

BTW - I'm also trying to get a Euro E30 Hitch to install on our E30, so that we can also tow with the 325e to vintage trailer/rv events & car shows etc. Our German-made & USA-finished "Export" Puck is only 660 lbs (1000 max wet/loaded) & easily towable by either vehicle, since they were designed by Eriba with VW in the 1950s in order to be towable by the 25 HP 1000 cc VW Bugs & Buses of the 1950's. Eriba still makes the slightly larger Eriba Touring, which used to be called the Familia & was up in size/weight slightly from the Puck, then Fawn models of the 1960's-80's.

Some USA/Canada members & a lot of our UK/Euro members will be familiar with the Eriba Pucks etc. - as shown in this 1965 brochure:

1965 Puck, Fawn, Familia original brochure 858351.jpg
.


And some Vintage BMW & Late Model BMW Corporate Cousin Content towing Pucks:

006_06_0.preview.JPGeriba-puck-caravan-tow.jpg
.


> So there ya go Mike - you're now "legal" to post your Westfalia photos, as can any other Puckers out there with Eribas!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom325e]

....

VW was also terrible then too, because we had an obvious "Left Lean" to our 1988 Westfalia Vanagon that we continually reported to the VW dealer every time it was in during the 24mo/24Kmi warranty, which they'd always deny was leaning - even with any common person walking by could tell, or that it was "normal for the Campers" - even when none of the others on the lot did so, or just "we couldn't 'find' anything wrong"!

Decades later when my long time mechanic was rebuilding the F & R suspensions - the found that the problem was that VW had built our Westy with standard duty "Tin-top" passenger Vanagon springs - instead of the proper HD Springs for the Campers, Pick-ups & Parcel Vans (Transporters)!

All that the mechanics at Commonwealth VW had to do was check the part number &/or color of the paint spots identifying the springs on our Westy, then process the Warranty Repair - no skin off their nose! Idiots!

Of course when I found out the true problem in 2012 - by then there was nothing I could do against VW.

But when I took the Westy in for repaint after that for a repaint - the first thing my long time body guy & his son & daughter said was: "Your van doesn't lean anymore!"

She's nicely "rolling restored" now:
20161002_074709 (2).jpg
.


Back in the 1980's VW & Audi were really bad on quality control & reliability, as well as very poor customer service, such that they were forced to appoint a customer service representative service.

Click on the mandated 1988 notification ad pic below to read the text about VW's version of the 3rd party arbitrator by BBB - which VW made sound like it was their idea to offer Arb! LOL

VW Customer Service Ad 1988.jpg

Apparently V/A/P still hasn't learned that lesson, judging by DieselGate!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Mike & All -

I also started it with my post above on here about VW & Westfalias back in the 1980s - which given that I started the topic as OP, & that it was a Comparo about 2 other non-BMW 1980s cars - I deem that this is more about a discussion about the full range of cars back then, & how our E30s fit in, stacked up, etc.

Here's another competing 1980's Sports Coupe/Convertible towing a Puck:

593883.jpg
.

BTW - the 911 is a 4 place sports coupe, which Porsche alternatively touts as a sports car to sell them, but as a sports coupe to race them in a more advantageous class(es) since the 1960s - so I say it's as much a sports coupe, as is my `85 325e E30 Coupe - its B-pillars aside, & which B-pillars the hardtop 911s also have as well! .... for those thinking that Coupes were 2 door cars without B-pillars, which in fact is/was their original accepted automotive definition. But even now BMW calls their 4 & 6 Series as "Coupes" with B-pillars, as do many other auto makers - so that Coupe definition has apparently broadened by the auto makers! .

So watcha all got to add to this discussion?

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[superj]

i just call any two door a coupe. i didn't know it had to not have b pillars till you had brought that up previously.

i did know the 911 is a four seater but, like the 924 and 944, normal sized people who have legs are not riding back there easily

[Tom325e]

i just call any two door a coupe. i didn't know it had to not have b pillars till you had brought that up previously.

i did know the 911 is a four seater but, like the 924 and 944, normal sized people who have legs are not riding back there easily

Yeah - I also call my 325e a Coupe & most other 2-doors as well (unless the B-pillar is big & wide) - but got "corrected" on here by another member - who was technically true, but then BMW called it a "Coupe" too in my original sales brochure, etc. But others who didn't read my prior post at another topic - see below.

Yes - I agree about the utility of Porsche rear seats (other than Panamera & Cayenne) - and we stopped looking at the 928 as a possible fun tow vehicle for our bigger Avion T20 (928 rated to tow about 4500 lbs) because it's 2+2 rear seats didn't offer much room, & when we went to drive this one below, my wife said: "I want a 'real' back seat to take our grandkids around too!

BG1.jpg
.


Also for others reading here - that's the way I learned car body classifications back in 1969-71 when I was originally studying to be an Automotive/Industrial Designer (before switching to Architecture/Urban Planning).

By the definitions that I learned back then - as 2 door without any B-Pillar was a "Coupe" with the full A-pillar to C-Pillar expanse open with all windows down, a 4-door with no B-Pillar was a "Hardtop" with the full open expanse, and a 2 or 4 door with a B-Pillar is/was a "Sedan" )"Limousine" in UK/Euro-parlance).

Also, by the original definitions - a "Roadster" has to be a 2 seat open top or soft-top convertible, whereas my Porsche 914 is often called & was marketed as a "Roadster" - but it could in fact seat a 3rd person in the middle with the optional padded top center storage console, plus its fixed roll-bar/sails make it a "Targa Top" car with the fiberglass top from the windshield frame to over the roll-bar - so probably more correctly a 2/3 seat Targa/Roadster or something.

If you look at American & UK/Euro cars pre-1975 +/- you can readily see the differences, but the later years ended up forcing B-pillars pretty much across the board - both for roll-over safety reasons, as well as it being more costly to have 4 roll-down windows in cars - especially smaller & lower priced ones, which was why the BMW 1600/2002 "Coupes" had pop-out windows with B-pillars - albeit thin pillars.


I don't think that any BMWs from the 1960s had been "Hardtops", but my 2nd car 1969 Pontiac Ventura was a 4-door Hardtop, for example:

1969 Pontiac Ventura 4 dr Hardtop Gold-Gold.jpg
Note that it's fully open from windshield/A-pillar to rear window/C-pillar with both driver side windows down for a cleaner look ... this one is from the 1969 GM sales brochure, whereas mine was a dark metallic green (Verdugo) with a a lighter green Vinyl roof (intended to give a convertible look in those days) & Gold vinyl interior - not my preferred color choices (you may get the drift from the 928, E9 & my E30 & Westy that Blue is my fav color) - but I bought it from my parents & my Mom loved green, & they bought it used from the old Fedmart as an executive's car (Ray Price of Price Club started & sold Fedmart before Price Club).
.


I think that the E9 2.8/3.0C/CS/CSi/CSL etc. was the last true BMW Coupe by that original definition:

1972 BMW E9 3,0CSA Fjord Blue on Black 01.jpg
.
Note the clear opening with both driver side windows down .... I was actually looking for a nice used E9 2.8 or 3.0 CS/CSi Coupe in this one's Fjord Blue with a Tan or Ivory/Pearl interior before I bought my `85 325e new, but ran out of time to find a good enough one used.


Cheers!
Tom
///////