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Thread: GS6-37BZ 6 Speed swap solutions and pitfalls

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    In my E36, I have an actual euro 6spd driveshaft.

    In my E30 M3, I have a Z4 3.0 manual front half on an E36 4-bolt rear half. The fitment is great. This is by far the best 4-bolt driveshaft option out there.

    I've used the E36 M3 auto shaft, and it's OK, but scary. Note that you absolutely MUST use an M3 giubo. The non-M giubo is significantly thinner, which results in less spline engagement. A lot of folks don't realize this, which, I suspect, has been a source of issues. I personally never had any issues, but I didn't like it.

    Edit: And the answer is that shipping can be surprisingly inexpensive from europe. And those transmissions are practically worthless because there are so many 320ds getting scrapped. IIRC, it was about $125 for the trans, $175 for the shipping. The trans had fairly low miles too.
    I of course DO have an M3, so M3 guibo is a check.

    Question - do you know if the Z4 manual front section is a fit for the E36? (Obviously should be just slightly longer than the auto). I'd assume an e30 is somewhat shorter than an e36.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoLastName View Post
    blckstrm: what makes you believe your input shaft bearing is bad? You're probably experiencing gearbox rattle due to the lightweight flywheel. I've been through this scenario before. The original transmission in my coupe had a worn synchro. I replaced it with a used 5-speed and switched to a UUC lightweight flywheel+M5 clutch at the same time. The transmission made horrible rumbling noises that sounded like a bad input shaft bearing. Then I swapped out the lightweight flywheel for a stock dual mass flywheel and it went back to normal. Some of these transmissions are just super sensitive to flywheel weight. It can vary by individual unit. Unless the synchros in yours are bad I'd probably just run it.
    There are two reasons:

    1) the noise started about 10k miles AFTER the LTW flywheel swap. I did get normal LTW flywheel chatter, but this noise is not normal chatter - it is a different noise that goes away immediately if I even breathe on the clutch pedal. It has recently gotten worse (another 40k miles later) and no longer goes away when I engage the clutch.

    2) I stupidly used a brass pivot pin, which provided the opportunity to go back in... 20k miles later. I replaced the TOB and no change. I also checked the input shaft and it had more play than I think it should have had (as I mentioned earlier).

    Also, the synchros are ok, but not great. No reason to through a bunch of money after a tranny with 252k miles still on all the internals.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewIon21 View Post
    I am having some issues with my zf 5 speed, too. I thought I had a bearing problem and because I'm incredibly skeptical of spending $1000 to have a heavily used on sent to me I reached out to Metric Mechanic out of Missouri. They rebuild several kinds of BMW transmissions and the guy I spoke to was incredibly helpful. Apparently these transmissions are prone to rattle - especially if you put a lightweight flywheel on the car. My issue, specifically, he said sounds like my reverse idler gear has too much play and is causing the gear assemblies to rattle against each other. Not catastrophic, but not necessarily a non-issue either.

    I asked him what it would cost to rebuild the transmission and it would run somewhere around $3200-$3800 - they're raising their prices to the top limit soon. They supposedly rework the transmission to solve several oddities within and do a full refresh. That's still a crap ton of money. Not sure if peace of mind knowing that I have a "new" transmission is worth that premium, but $1000 for something coated in grease with an unknown past is not all that comforting to me.
    I can see the point with an EAG garage queen. For a driver?

    Man, just do the swap. You get a much newer transmission and a 6th gear for about the same money as a 200k mile eBay trans. Dramatically less than Metric Mechanic - less than half.

    I imagine the only time it makes sense to send it to Metric Mechanic is if your race class prohibits the swap.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    I of course DO have an M3, so M3 guibo is a check.

    Question - do you know if the Z4 manual front section is a fit for the E36? (Obviously should be just slightly longer than the auto). I'd assume an e30 is somewhat shorter than an e36.
    Yes. The driveshaft lengths are very close. And since you already have a 4-bolt rear, you just need the front half. (6-bolt shafts are not compatible.)
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    Yes. The driveshaft lengths are very close. And since you already have a 4-bolt rear, you just need the front half. (6-bolt shafts are not compatible.)
    Yeah, I don't know how reliable it would be to look up the overall length of the Z4 driveshaft because I don't know if the back section is the same or not and it's a 6 bolt CV anyway, so that could impact the length too (a little). [Edit] Yeah, they're so much shorter (looking at RealOEM) that it doesn't make any sense to just go off the overall length. [/Edit]

    But if you could confirm the Z4 manual front section is just a little longer than the E36 M3 auto front section, that would be great - I was just going to order the auto driveshaft today, so if the Z4 is a slightly better fit, I'd much prefer to go that direction.

    Even just another inch longer or so would be significantly better.

    Is there a certain year (E85/E86/E89), or are any of the first 2002-2008 3.0 manual cars OK?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by blckstrm; 04-15-2021 at 11:26 AM.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Yeah, I don't know how reliable it would be to look up the overall length of the Z4 driveshaft because I don't know if the back section is the same or not and it's a 6 bolt CV anyway, so that could impact the length too (a little). [Edit] Yeah, they're so much shorter (looking at RealOEM) that it doesn't make any sense to just go off the overall length. [/Edit]

    But if you could confirm the Z4 manual front section is just a little longer than the E36 M3 auto front section, that would be great - I was just going to order the auto driveshaft today, so if the Z4 is a slightly better fit, I'd much prefer to go that direction.

    Even just another inch longer or so would be significantly better.

    Is there a certain year (E85/E86/E89), or are any of the first 2002-2008 3.0 manual cars OK?

    Thanks!
    Yes. The Z4 3.0 manual front half is about an inch longer than the auto front half. You want E85/E86.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    Yes. The Z4 3.0 manual front half is about an inch longer than the auto front half. You want E85/E86.
    Beautiful! Where have you been all my life? 🤣

    I've found two super low mile 03 E85 3.0s I can pick from.

    I've been reading about this swap (this GS6 or the 420G) for years and you're the first I've heard of this. Why isn't this common knowledge?

    I already said it, but I'll be writing this up (and giving credit!) for the right way to do this.

    Man, thank you Nick!

  6. #31
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    OK, just want to triple check.

    Nick, this looks right, yeah?

    123_1.jpg

    123_1(2).jpg

    123_1(1).jpg

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    OK, just want to triple check.

    Nick, this looks right, yeah?

    123_1.jpg

    123_1(2).jpg

    123_1(1).jpg
    It looks about right, but I'm not going to pretend I have the exact visual profile of the driveshaft in my head.
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    Out where I live, smg 420g is about 400 or 500, and the bell housing modification is another 500, so overall with new clutch and driveshaft and crossmember shit, of be about 1500 in the hole. Minus whatever I get from the 5 speed that's in the car now. For me it's a no brainer to go with a 6 speed 420g, and I've only heard good things about that tranny.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekng View Post
    Out where I live, smg 420g is about 400 or 500, and the bell housing modification is another 500, so overall with new clutch and driveshaft and crossmember shit, of be about 1500 in the hole. Minus whatever I get from the 5 speed that's in the car now. For me it's a no brainer to go with a 6 speed 420g, and I've only heard good things about that tranny.
    I haven't added it up yet, but that's about where I'm at. We'll see what I can get for some of my SSK components, front half of the driveshaft, and the transmission (I've seen several for sale "for parts" at around $500 - the market is just crazy right now). If the input shaft isn't any worse than when I last checked it maybe I'll just sell it as worn-but-good with the miles listed. It does have fresh seals, detentes, etc.

  10. #35
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    Ok, so I'm about halfway - just trying to put it all back together.


    First, I can't see how the Zionsville pilot bearing adapter could fail - it fits VERY snugly, and he includes bearing loctite, so I don't see it coming loose or causing a problem.


    Second, I don't think it was designed to work with the uuc M5 flywheel / pressure plate. The 330 clutch plate interferes with the pilot bearing adapter, which leads me to believe I need a thicker flywheel friction surface so the clutch friction surface will start making contact with the flywheel friction surface before the center of the clutch starts making contact with the pilot bearing / adapter.


    So, I need about two and a half millimeters more clearance if I install the clutch plate backwards, or about 3 and 1/2 mm more clearance if I install it correctly.


    So the question is, do I need to see if I can get a thicker friction plate for the flywheel from UUC, or am I okay installing the clutch plate backwards after grinding off about 2.5 millimeters from the splines so that I don't get interference?


    My thinking is that the whole clutch plate will move 2.5mm towards the flywheel, so I shouldn't be in danger of the TOB making the pressure plate levers contact the clutch. In any case, I have the Bimmerworld hockey puck clutch stop, so I should be able to manage it that way as well if it turns out I do make contact when pushing the clutch in too far.

    [Edit] it has occurred to me that adding a thicker friction surface might make the pressure plate unable to disengage at all, so it's either grind down my current 330 clutch plate and install it backwards, or swap to an entire 330 flywheel / pressure plate setup.

    [2nd Edit] Also just want to note getting that pilot bearing adapter out of the crank will be a terrible experience, and makes me lean toward making this setup work with maybe some other e36 ltw flywheel provided the profile works...

    [Edit 3] After looking at the old E34 M5 clutch plate again, it houses all the springs and guts in the pressure plate side - generally convex facing the trans and concave facing the flywheel. Maybe what I've been thinking is backwards is the correct direction after all. Shaving a couple mm seems like less problem if that's the right direction to start with...
    ...


    Separately, I was shocked to find my stainless pivot pin is mushrooming just like the brass one.

    20210511_122218.jpg

    This is it compared with the original (100k - 205k) plastic pivot pin. And even that plastic one is worn compared to the brand new one I grabbed at the dealer this afternoon. Did not expect that...

    ...

    Last item: Nick, which shift lever did you use? I'm afraid my Rogue lever will be too long and interfere with the giubo. I have my original (with 205k miles too is name) so I can get it back in the road, but it's horribly worn. Just curious what a good compromise would be? ZHP lever? Z4, maybe Z4M lever?
    Last edited by blckstrm; 05-11-2021 at 08:22 PM.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  11. #36
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    I have an unknown Rogue lever. It was free. You can adjust the length of the Rogues by moving the circlips.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    I have an unknown Rogue lever. It was free. You can adjust the length of the Rogues by moving the circlips.
    Crazy - I was even wondering what those grooves in the lever were for. I'll have to take a look at mine and slide it down. Thanks!

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Separately, I was shocked to find my stainless pivot pin is mushrooming just like the brass one.

    20210511_122218.jpg
    Is that an OE stainless pivot pin from a dealership or an aftermarket copy?
    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJLM34A View Post
    Is that an OE stainless pivot pin from a dealership or an aftermarket copy?
    OEM from the local dealer - that was the fastest (and cheapest) option to get the part the next day.

    [Edit]

    I should add that I talked to UUC today and they said the problem I'm having is because everything is totally worn out, and also said that getting a sprung hub clutch would both drive better and also help with problem, too.

    So the car sits until next week sometime.
    Last edited by blckstrm; 05-13-2021 at 12:06 AM.

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    I've come to accept that the plastic pivots are the best. It just feels wrong.

    Given the condition of the pivot, I'd probably recommend replacing the fork.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    I've come to accept that the plastic pivots are the best. It just feels wrong.

    Given the condition of the pivot, I'd probably recommend replacing the fork.
    That's a good call - I need a couple other odds and ends from FCP anyway. Might as well make it all new.

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    Man, I'm still waiting - got a new friction surface for the flywheel and a new gall plate and flywheel bolts.


    UUC tech guy said the friction surface was toast (I may have already mentioned that).


    They also say on their website they should last for 3-6 clutches. This has been in for... 45k miles. I admit I've taught several kids how to drive on this, and the clutch is pretty far gone, but the flywheels friction surface doesn't look that bad to me.


    Thoughts?
    20210511_154924.jpg

    [Edit] yes there's some character to the surface, but it is perfectly smooth...
    Last edited by blckstrm; 05-19-2021 at 08:23 AM.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

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    So this is turning into a bit of a disaster.

    Got the right clutch from UUC - STILL high centers on the pilot bearing adapter.

    So, either there's something unique about my crankshaft, or everyone that uses the pilot bearing adapter is forcing / grinding their clutch against the pilot bearing and adapter every time they shift.

    Which would also explain why there have been stories of the things disintegrating.

    ...

    So now I have to grind the adapter out of my crank, send everything back, and order a full 330 flywheel / clutch / pressure plate, which will probably be at least another week.

  19. #44
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    What's this pilot bearing adapter? I just replaced the pilot bearing with a new one and it worked fine. (Is it needed because you are using the 6 speed from a non M? the GS6.. instead of the 420G) I've never heard of having to use an adaptor... Looking at the picture, it sure looks like the pilot bearing is sitting really proud.

    Just reading the Zionsville web site, it doesn't read like you need that part for what you are doing, and is likely what the problems is.
    No matter where you go, there you are...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RRSperry View Post
    What's this pilot bearing adapter? I just replaced the pilot bearing with a new one and it worked fine. (Is it needed because you are using the 6 speed from a non M? the GS6.. instead of the 420G) I've never heard of having to use an adaptor... Looking at the picture, it sure looks like the pilot bearing is sitting really proud.

    Just reading the Zionsville web site, it doesn't read like you need that part for what you are doing, and is likely what the problems is.
    The GS6 has a short input shaft and is designed for a pilot bearing that sits in the FLYWHEEL. With the exception of the MZ4 version.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    So this is turning into a bit of a disaster.

    Got the right clutch from UUC - STILL high centers on the pilot bearing adapter.

    So, either there's something unique about my crankshaft, or everyone that uses the pilot bearing adapter is forcing / grinding their clutch against the pilot bearing and adapter every time they shift.

    Which would also explain why there have been stories of the things disintegrating.

    ...

    So now I have to grind the adapter out of my crank, send everything back, and order a full 330 flywheel / clutch / pressure plate, which will probably be at least another week.
    Note that AFAIK, only JB Racing actually uses the 330i clutch. Everyone else uses an E36 M3 style clutch on a compatible flywheel. Ergo, your UUC pressure plate and clutch disc should work on the UUC 330i flywheel. (I ENCOURAGE YOU TO CONFIRM THAT WITH UUC.)

    (The E46 330i and E36 M3 pressure plates have a different bolt pattern.)
    Last edited by nick325xit 5spd; 05-21-2021 at 09:08 AM.
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    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Thoughts?
    20210511_154924.jpg

    [Edit] yes there's some character to the surface, but it is perfectly smooth...
    Yes, and it's bad character!
    That friction surface is toasted.

    Neil

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Yes, and it's bad character!
    That friction surface is toasted.

    Neil
    They look like that after 1700 miles of use. I just pulled one with documented miles that was adult street driven on a standard E34 M5 clutch disc and it was very similar.

    Literally anytime someone posts a used flywheel pic out of a manual trans (SMG don't do this), someone posts up "it's toast" without any understanding.



    IMG_1673 (Edited).jpg
    Last edited by Braymond141; 05-21-2021 at 03:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    They look like that after 1700 miles of use. I just pulled one with documented miles that was adult street driven on a standard E34 M5 clutch disc and it was very similar.

    Literally anytime someone posts a used flywheel pic out of a manual trans (SMG don't do this), someone posts up "it's toast" without any understanding.
    Thank you - that's my point. And for the UUC tech guy to be telling me this just fries me.

    UUC says on their website you should only have to replace these surfaces every 3-6 clutch changes (not that I buy that - that would be 300k - 600k miles on average in my case).

    But for this to be toast already after half a clutch?

    I have around 48k miles on this setup. I put it in around 205k and currently show 252k. No track work, and yes, I taught a couple kids to drive, but no one fried it too bad. 80% work commute, 20% hill country roads. It doesn't make sense to me that it would be ruined after so little driving, and none of it in what I would consider harsh conditions.


    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    The GS6 has a short input shaft and is designed for a pilot bearing that sits in the FLYWHEEL. With the exception of the MZ4 version.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Note that AFAIK, only JB Racing actually uses the 330i clutch. Everyone else uses an E36 M3 style clutch on a compatible flywheel. Ergo, your UUC pressure plate and clutch disc should work on the UUC 330i flywheel. (I ENCOURAGE YOU TO CONFIRM THAT WITH UUC.)

    (The E46 330i and E36 M3 pressure plates have a different bolt pattern.)
    This is true for a 420G, but I have a GS6, so I need the actual 22 spline 330 clutch.

    This whole adventure was about trying to use most of my UUC setup.

    It just doesn't work. If I'm missing something or did something wrong, I'd love to know. But I think the adapter makes the pilot bearing sit too proud of the flywheel by at least 5mm. And I don't think there's any way to seat it further, either.

    I'm just surprised no one has highlighted this issue before. Surprised Dwight didn't realize it was interfering with the clutch when he made it.

    I don't think they're still making these kits, just selling off the last bit of inventory.

    I think if you're going to use a GS6 you need to use the actual 330 6 speed flywheel and clutch. (The clutch was always non- negotiable - you need the 22 spline clutch for the GS6).

    But the flywheel seemed optional with this adapter because everything else was interchangeable.

    I guess I should have listened to that little voice in my head that was whispering not to cut this corner.
    Last edited by blckstrm; 05-21-2021 at 11:28 PM.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Thank you - that's my point. And for the UUC tech guy to be telling me this just fries me.

    UUC says on their website you should only have to replace these surfaces every 3-6 clutch changes (not that I buy that - that would be 300k - 600k miles on average in my case).

    But for this to be toast already after half a clutch?

    I have around 48k miles on this setup. I put it in around 205k and currently show 252k. No track work, and yes, I taught a couple kids to drive, but no one fried it too bad. 80% work commute, 20% hill country roads. It doesn't make sense to me that it would be ruined after so little driving, and none of it in what I would consider harsh conditions.




    This is true for a 420G, but I have a GS6, so I need the actual 22 spline 330 clutch.

    This whole adventure was about trying to use most of my UUC setup.

    It just doesn't work. If I'm missing something or did something wrong, I'd love to know. But I think the adapter makes the pilot bearing sit too proud of the flywheel by at least 5mm. And I don't think there's any way to seat it further, either.

    I'm just surprised no one has highlighted this issue before. Surprised Dwight didn't realize it was interfering with the clutch when he made it.

    I don't think they're still making these kits, just selling off the last bit of inventory.

    I think if you're going to use a GS6 you need to use the actual 330 6 speed flywheel and clutch. (The clutch was always non- negotiable - you need the 22 spline clutch for the GS6).

    But the flywheel seemed optional with this adapter because everything else was interchangeable.

    I guess I should have listened to that little voice in my head that was whispering not to cut this corner.
    Yes, the clutch disc is different. HOWEVER, almost all of the aftermarket flywheel manufacturers are using M3 pressure plates which DO NOT share the same bolt pattern as the 330i. THAT is what I am trying to communicate to you.

    I *did* tell you to just suck it up and buy a flywheel. :p

    Anyway, my point is that the clutch disc that you have and the pressure plate that you have that sit on an E36 M3 fitment UUC flywheel will work on a 330i fitment UUC flywheel.

    Note that they will NOTNOTNOT work on a JB racing 330i flywheel.
    Last edited by nick325xit 5spd; 05-22-2021 at 07:02 AM.
    2011 M3 Sedan
    2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD LBZ
    1999 323i GTS2
    1995 M3 - S50B32/S6S420G/3.91
    1990 325is
    1989 M3 - S54B32/GS6-37BZ

    Hers: 1996 Porsche 911 Turbo
    Hers: 1989 325iX


  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    2,181
    My Cars
    S54 E36 M3, E32 740il
    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    Yes, the clutch disc is different. HOWEVER, almost all of the aftermarket flywheel manufacturers are using M3 pressure plates which DO NOT share the same bolt pattern as the 330i. THAT is what I am trying to communicate to you.

    I *did* tell you to just suck it up and buy a flywheel. :p

    Anyway, my point is that the clutch disc that you have and the pressure plate that you have that sit on an E36 M3 fitment UUC flywheel will work on a 330i fitment UUC flywheel.

    Note that they will NOTNOTNOT work on a JB racing 330i flywheel.
    Hehe - you sure did. I obviously should have listened to you in the first place.

    Also re the pressure plate: I appreciate the confirmation.

    I actually tried to call UUC for HOURS yesterday. I originally had planned to just buy the flywheel from them and be done. But they wouldn't answer the phone. I finally gave up and called Bimmerworld and just got an entire kit. I honestly don't even know which flywheel I'm getting (or rather from who).

    In any case my thinking was that by doing this I can get an e34 M5 clutch and sell my current setup as a complete kit to recoup some cost.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

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