M50 vs sheet metal intake manifolds for high hp applications

[wgknestrick]

I have already designed and printed an adapter in CF Nylon to fit an N62 throttle body to this

How well does the IAC fit up underneath? Is there anything you needed to correct or fix from a vacuum hose/connection POV?

[wgknestrick]

In general the Ebay/China stuff can be decent, but you need to know what you are looking for. The design is 95% of everything and it needs to be manufactured "good enough" to not have any flaws. DO NOT ever use included O-rings and fasteners with this stuff as they are complete junk. Buy replacement Viton Parker O-rings from McMaster as they won't compression set after 1 month. Double check flange flatness and always boost leak check everything after install. It's also good to have the ability to fab any little detail that may be overlooked. With this, we already know that a throttle solution will probably need to be made. Supposedly, these use a Nissan VQ35TPS style TB that can be purchased in different DIAs. I know what I'm getting into and feel confident I can solve most issues I may see.

With this manifold ($500ish shipped), I have about $3000 in savings to spend on making this work for my setup before I get to the price of a CPC intake manifold which looks very similar in design. Is this as nice, fully CNCed runners, etc....not even close. I'll post my experience good and bad to contribute because we are all hoping to have a $500 sheet metal intake manifold solution for our cars. I'll have before/after dyno graphs to compare AT THE SAME BOOST level too. I should get it by end of the week. What is nice is that this eliminates about 4 T-Bolt fittings in my intake that are all potential leak sources. I find it hard to believe that this will lose any HP to a M50 manifold and estimate about 15hp gain, but we'll see.

CPC Intake manifold ($3500). Interesting that they also use a 90mm TB.
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[ba114]

Do you mind sharing a STEP file? I have SolidWorks 2021 if you have a native CAD file too. It would save me a little time measuring and would be something to work from. I'll share back what I end up with (and add an Oring groove that you are missing for sealing the stock TB).
[

shouldn't require an oring groove as its in the throttle body.

I'm assuming you added brass, threaded inserts for the TB bolts in the adaptor or did you just drill/tap the AL IM flange?

Threaded brass inserts.

[digger]

the air doesn't care how much it cost to produce the passage ways or how pretty the surface looks

[ba114]

the air doesn't care how much it cost to produce the passage ways or how pretty the surface looks

Well...it kind of does.... otherwise why do we polish ports?

[digger]

Well...it kind of does.... otherwise why do we polish ports?

only the foolish do.....a bit of texture is proven to be better. The shape and size matter about 100 times more.

[e36ALPINE]

Any updates on the ebay manifold?

[wgknestrick]

Any updates on the ebay manifold?

I have it, but plan on installing it this winter with some other mods. I now also have my 3D printer up and running to make any adaptor plates for throttle bodies since this only comes with a 90mm TB which is pretty huge. I'm worried about my NickG tune not being able to keep up with the fueling requirements on tip ins.

Has anyone else run a larger throttle body (90mm) without tuning?

[wgknestrick]

Update to all on this manifold. It is not worth your time. My list of issues has grown to make it more hassle than it's worth.

Major Issues:
Manifold flange O-ring grooves are not designed to Parker O-Ring gland specs and constantly leak. Cannot get them to seal at all and I refuse to use Hondabond to ghetto rig this. Can't even build positive pressure with air compressor test. #1 Show stopper
Requires short injectors to clear the hood. Another big show stopper for me. You can mount the stock fuel rail on this though with spacers.

Minor Issues:
Throttle body requires custom throttle cable as stock cable will not reach. Had purchased a Lokar cable to fix this and it would've worked.
TPS sensor mount was wrong on 90mm throttle body, but I designed and 3D printed a new adaptor
No cruise control accommodations on 90mm throttle body (not a big deal, and I was working on designing an adaptor)
Internal port - runner match required significant grinding to clean up. Typical China quality, but was able to clean it up.
Doesn't come with IAC fitting.

[Z3speed4me]

This is my surprised face after years of telling people 99% of these things are crap.....
I STILL want to see apples to apples intake comparison done by someone, and I am not volunteering unless someone supplies a proper fitting part.

Not convinced they do anything substantial yet, and not one vendor that even sells the things even attempts to provide data which is telling in itself.

[Colby Colbs]

This is my surprised face after years of telling people 99% of these things are crap.....
I STILL want to see apples to apples intake comparison done by someone, and I am not volunteering unless someone supplies a proper fitting part.

Not convinced they do anything substantial yet, and not one vendor that even sells the things even attempts to provide data which is telling in itself.

"its not worth your time..."
-Colby Colbs

HAHAHA!

[someguy2800]

It’s not rocket science. There are lots and lots of books on this subject and dozens of back to back tests on other engine platforms to draw information from. You just have to go looking for it and you’ll find piles of information. No need to wait for someone to spoon feed it to you. It’s pretty easy to figure out what rpm range an m50 intake will perform at, and what rpm range it won’t.

[Colby Colbs]

It’s not rocket science. There are lots and lots of books on this subject and dozens of back to back tests on other engine platforms to draw information from. You just have to go looking for it and you’ll find piles of information. No need to wait for someone to spoon feed it to you. It’s pretty easy to figure out what rpm range an m50 intake will perform at, and what rpm range it won’t.

I silver spoon fed it to them and they still didn't listen!! Figuring out this community is apparently straight rocket science!

[digger]

This is my surprised face after years of telling people 99% of these things are crap.....
I STILL want to see apples to apples intake comparison done by someone, and I am not volunteering unless someone supplies a proper fitting part.

Not convinced they do anything substantial yet, and not one vendor that even sells the things even attempts to provide data which is telling in itself.

The physics is settled on this, as you incrementality make the runner shorter it will bias the VE curve relatively higher at the top end. You end up trading torque in the midrange with torque at the top end all else being equal.

Eventually if you keep going shorter and shorter you will make it too short which is quite possibly the best way to kill midrange torque. If the runner is too short the VE curve will still be bias to the topend but be lower overall have seen this many times. You see many people running uber short runner manifolds but are turning low rpm that they aren't benefiting much if at all.

The optimum runner length is almost exclusively based on the desired rpm range where you want optimum VE. All components need to be suited for the desired rpm you cant just throw a 6" runner and expect the engine to peak at say 9000rpm because that is the optimum rpm for the length as all the other bits are fighting against you if not specced correctly.

[wgknestrick]

The biggest problem with this community is shown right in this thread. So many negative attitudes (opinions) without any first hand knowledge or data to back it up. There is still a void of an affordable end-inlet intake manifold for the M50/M52 engines, and ebay manifolds work well on many other applications. This specific manifold WILL make more HP over a M50 intake manifold, and I am certain of that based off it's design fundamentals. God forbid I try to make something work, experiment, and post the results. Thankfully we have all the "I told you soooos" to come back and gloat after their coin-toss statements. A good community experiments, post results of successes AND failures, and is supportive of each other.

This manifold needs a lower injector mount position to fit Bosch injectors along with OEM gasket glands/thicker flange. The main issue are the design details, but it is very close to working. They will make significant HP just in the throttle body increase alone on most 600hp+ turbo setups. If I was willing to buy new shorty injectors and a tune, then I could've probably gotten it to work. I was not willing to do so.

[Z3speed4me]

So why can't someone make one that just works then if everyone has the information so readily available at their disposal.... OR actually provide testing to pitch a product they are trying to sell. This is not difficult, marketing 101 is convince your buyer they need your product. No company is doing that on our platform, they would rather make the customer be the tester which is ass-backwards.

And for Perry's comment, I fully agree yes the math is there the science is there but still crap items are being pushed and supported (bc everyone is doing junkyard cheap as possible "builds" now) and the good products are not being emphasized or properly promoted well enough to truly showcase their abilities. If someone is selling a 3000 dollar manifold you better show someone what it does not just rely on "trust me bro". A few hours of time and some dyno pulls to sell your work is not a lot to ask but again nobody does it.

[someguy2800]

So why can't someone make one that just works then if everyone has the information so readily available at their disposal.... OR actually provide testing to pitch a product they are trying to sell. This is not difficult, marketing 101 is convince your buyer they need your product. No company is doing that on our platform, they would rather make the customer be the tester which is ass-backwards.

And for Perry's comment, I fully agree yes the math is there the science is there but still crap items are being pushed and supported (bc everyone is doing junkyard cheap as possible "builds" now) and the good products are not being emphasized or properly promoted well enough to truly showcase their abilities. If someone is selling a 3000 dollar manifold you better show someone what it does not just rely on "trust me bro". A few hours of time and some dyno pulls to sell your work is not a lot to ask but again nobody does it.

It’s not always that easy when the people making these products are self funding the development and tooling to make stuff like this in their personal time and frankly most of the time they are too busy to finish their own cars. I do like 10 hours of work for other people for every hour of work I get to put into my own stuff. It would actually be a pretty big undertaking on my car to be able to swap back and forth with a stock intake. Lot of stuff would have to get remade. I mean it’s a lot of money but it would make you sick to see how much it costs to pay people to make stuff like this.

[das Boot]

The m50 intake will 100% without a doubt be more than enough for 99.9 % of members here..stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Colby Colbs]

The biggest problem with this community is shown right in this thread. So many negative attitudes (opinions) without any first hand knowledge or data to back it up. There is still a void of an affordable end-inlet intake manifold for the M50/M52 engines, and ebay manifolds work well on many other applications. This specific manifold WILL make more HP over a M50 intake manifold, and I am certain of that based off it's design fundamentals. God forbid I try to make something work, experiment, and post the results. Thankfully we have all the "I told you soooos" to come back and gloat after their coin-toss statements. A good community experiments, post results of successes AND failures, and is supportive of each other.

This manifold needs a lower injector mount position to fit Bosch injectors along with OEM gasket glands/thicker flange. The main issue are the design details, but it is very close to working. They will make significant HP just in the throttle body increase alone on most 600hp+ turbo setups. If I was willing to buy new shorty injectors and a tune, then I could've probably gotten it to work. I was not willing to do so.

Coin toss statement you call it, but it's a FACT! It's a piece of junk. The runners are different lengths and angles. The flange wasn't flat. I never bothered even trying to put o'rings in it. Injectors don't fit. Blah Blah blah.

You don't see anyone in the Supra community crying "we need cheap solutions". Cheap is never good. Good is never cheap. I told you not to waste your time. I'm not mad about it, looks like you are tho. So you buy one and come back and report what I said word for word. The problem with this community is you all think you are smarter than someone with DIRECT EXPERIENCE ON THE SUBJECT! The experiment has been done and your the fool for not listening.

Significant increase in the throttle body alone? Oh here we go. Use the search function buddy. That was tested 10 years ago. I can see you have no experience, yet you claim things need testing, then you make claims you pulled out of nowhere. Great way to contradict yourself. Good luck, our ebay hero that saved everyone from the bad bad old M50 manifold. Me and a couple folks in here have made 1000whp+ on them, 2.5" charge pipe and stock throttle, for me, remember that. It loved 8000+rpm but what do I know.

[digger]

The biggest problem with this community is shown right in this thread. So many negative attitudes (opinions) without any first hand knowledge or data to back it up. There is still a void of an affordable end-inlet intake manifold for the M50/M52 engines, and ebay manifolds work well on many other applications. This specific manifold WILL make more HP over a M50 intake manifold, and I am certain of that based off it's design fundamentals. God forbid I try to make something work, experiment, and post the results. Thankfully we have all the "I told you soooos" to come back and gloat after their coin-toss statements. A good community experiments, post results of successes AND failures, and is supportive of each other.

This manifold needs a lower injector mount position to fit Bosch injectors along with OEM gasket glands/thicker flange. The main issue are the design details, but it is very close to working. They will make significant HP just in the throttle body increase alone on most 600hp+ turbo setups. If I was willing to buy new shorty injectors and a tune, then I could've probably gotten it to work. I was not willing to do so.

the "negative" attitudes seem to have been justified to me

Nobody is stopping anyone buying a few ebay manifolds, weed out the scrap send them back and do some mods to get the best of the bunch to make them fit and doing some A-B testing.

[wgknestrick]

Coin toss statement you call it, but it's a FACT! It's a piece of junk. The runners are different lengths and angles. The flange wasn't flat. I never bothered even trying to put o'rings in it. Injectors don't fit. Blah Blah blah.

You don't see anyone in the Supra community crying "we need cheap solutions". Cheap is never good. Good is never cheap. I told you not to waste your time. I'm not mad about it, looks like you are tho. So you buy one and come back and report what I said word for word. The problem with this community is you all think you are smarter than someone with DIRECT EXPERIENCE ON THE SUBJECT! The experiment has been done and your the fool for not listening.

Significant increase in the throttle body alone? Oh here we go. Use the search function buddy. That was tested 10 years ago. I can see you have no experience, yet you claim things need testing, then you make claims you pulled out of nowhere. Great way to contradict yourself. Good luck, our ebay hero that saved everyone from the bad bad old M50 manifold. Me and a couple folks in here have made 1000whp+ on them, 2.5" charge pipe and stock throttle, for me, remember that. It loved 8000+rpm but what do I know.

The runners are not different lengths nor angles. Again, you did not have any experience with this manifold, hence easily ignored.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/40181863821...BoCMfoQAvD_BwE

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You purchased this POS. Just the fact that you bought the unequal length runner manifold told me enough about your intelligence/opinion as that was never, ever going to work without causing per-cylinder AF issues. It was advice on a totally different item...yeah, thanks for the head's up, bud.
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I am positive you are the only one upset here.

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It’s not always that easy when the people making these products are self funding the development and tooling to make stuff like this in their personal time and frankly most of the time they are too busy to finish their own cars. I do like 10 hours of work for other people for every hour of work I get to put into my own stuff. It would actually be a pretty big undertaking on my car to be able to swap back and forth with a stock intake. Lot of stuff would have to get remade. I mean it’s a lot of money but it would make you sick to see how much it costs to pay people to make stuff like this.

You are absolutely right on the PITA in swapping. It's 2 completely different throttle cable setups, throttle bodies, hot side IC piping, and probably tune for larger TB.

[Colby Colbs]

No, Son. See, there you go again, making up stories. What have I told you about that? Pretty soon I'm going to need the basement back, you should start looking for another place to live.

-Dad

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[PEI330Ci]

Colby, what's next? Are you going to claim to own a dyno too?

[Colby Colbs]

Colby, what's next? Are you going to claim to own a dyno too?

That would be ludacris!

[ba114]

My experience:
- Fit perfectly
- ID1050x injectors fit (i dont use the adapters to make them full length)
- Didnt use the included throttle body so no issues with cables - the cable mount is a great place to drill out one of the threaded holes to fit a boost sensor.
- stock fuel rail fitted with risers and same adapters needed to fit m50 manifold.