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Thread: OEM Navigation vs Chinese vs 'Known brands'

  1. #1
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    OEM Navigation vs Chinese vs 'Known brands'

    Hi, I own a BMW E38 from 1998 and I would like to upgrade the multimedia system. I found a few that run Android and cost around 150 EUR from China (obviously no brand), but also other that have a brand but cost around 500 EUR.

    My problem is that I don't seem to understand what the difference between them is and why the branded ones are charging so much more. Is it only because of the brand?

    Example:

    Chinese one: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001116175098.html

    Branded one: https://avinusa.com/avant-4-multimed...eries-e38.html

  2. #2
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    With some E38s such as both of my 2001s, there is a protrusion into the opening from the HVAC system that physically blocks these from fitting due to the DVD drive. For LHD, it is on the right edge. RHD cars are a mirror image. This is why the rear "box" of the stock MVIV Navigation is so narrow, as it had to work on both LHD and RHD models.

    I was looking into this a couple years ago and couldn't find a solution that met my standards (DVD drive, android, looks original, iBus compatible, etc) so I held off.

    This was recently released and seems to have all of the features/functions I want, while fitting correctly in the dashboard too:
    https://mcmwtuning.co.uk/e38-android...b-5a59b80d1be2

    I'd like to know how they overcame the space issue.
    2001 740I M62TUB44: Iris, My daily
    1997 Ford Expedition XLT 5.4L 4x4: Onyx, the 315k mile tow rig

  3. #3
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  4. #4
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    1988 E24, 1997 E38 740iL
    I did see this a couple of months ago on a “for sale” car, not sure who or what, but it is a solution..
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPHES View Post
    I have one of those kits on my E38
    El Cid 1999 IL
    DUDMD Tune/DINAN CAI/19 in Style 95 Rims/Bilstein's Shocks/Eibach Lowering Springs/OEM Folding Mirrors/Custom Cupholder/Custom Wood Sunshade/Sport Steering Wheel/Euro Center Console/Leather Shifter/Rearview Camera /Luke Custom 10 in Sub Box/Cross Drilled Rotors/Rear view Camera/BMW OEM Monitors/BMW E38 Picnic Tables/Vanity Headrests/OEM Roof Rack/Strut Bar/Dinan MAF and Dinan Throttle Body and Dinan tunning /BM53 Radio upgrade /Custom Innovadrive NXG39 modify and Alpine ILX-W650 touch screen radio.

  6. #6
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    E38 98 740iL & 01 750iL
    Just did the Avin Avant 4 unit in my 1998. It works great and is a pretty easy install. Would really recommend it, feels very good. I got the upgraded 6 core unit and it is quick and responsive. The only hard part to find is the factory monitor carrier for pre-facelift cars. With a factory monitor carrier, I have no issues with the fitment and really looks factory. HVAC buttons are all available and it all works well in the car. In regards to the carrier, I accidentally ordered two and one is still on its way to me so if you want me to let you know when it comes in, I can. Shipping might be a bit much from the USA to Denmark though.
    Last edited by tylamb19; 10-13-2020 at 08:44 PM.
    E38 1998 740iL DM24826 - Arctic Silver Metallic / Gray - 185k
    Retrofits/Modifications: Bi-xenon lights with angel eyes and city lights, 750iL grab handles and rear interior lights, facelift kidneys, Euro front plate, 2001 tail lights, auto wipers, auto headlights, interior and exterior illuminated door handles, Steptronic, "Max AC" IHKA panel, comfort exit/entry, LED high beams, rear seat foot rests, footwell lighting, Avin Avant 4, Monsoon rear deck subs and door woofers, wireless charging, hydraulic trunk (coming soon)

    E38 2001 750iL Sport DD74513 - Titan Silver / Black - 175k

    BMW CCA # 573127

  7. #7
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    Hi,

    SimeriaIonut - All the Android powered or based replacement head units come out of China and all use generic grade electronics. The units are made by 3/4 factories that make cheap/budget electronic items en masse and then pump them out for various 'resellers' to buy a batch which in turn, are then listed on ebay/amazon and direct websites. These 'resellers' install a software skin, think up a brand name, create a website and flog them off at various price points. The more expensive 'USA based brand' called 'Avin' has a specific physical unit which is their 'exclusive' - they still contain generic grade electronics but retail at a much higher price point. Due to the use of those generic electronics, there's potentially the same problems/niggles/issues that you get with the cheaper android units and if you look around the various USA forums, you'll see feedback from customers where some customers are hapy and others aren't happy and mention the same kinds of issues/niggles that affect the cheaper chinese replacement units. Essentially, there is no difference in terms of the hardware/electronics quality. The other brand is 'Dynavin' and combined, these two have higher price points as Avin is USA based so has to pay for the extra mandatory business costs of operating legally within the USA and Dynavin does the same in the various countries it has distributors in. If your requirements are for a reliable, high quality, excellent performance head unit, then you'd not really want to buy a chinese replacement type unit as chances are high you'll be disappointed. If you don't really care about those aspects and just want a head unit that looks oem, then choose a chinese unit you like and keep your fingers crossed that it arrives fully working and continues to do so longer term. Some customers have had that experience, many others haven't ! The alternative is a shallow depth unit from the recognised, high quality brands like Pioneer, Sony, Alpine, Kenwood, JVC who make units that perform to a much better level in comparison. However, none are vehicle specific/shaped/designed etc. That's the reason I decided to create, design and manufacture an OEM looking fascia/fitting kit so that owners can have very close to OEM looks AND high quality electronics. Although I've not got around to making an E38 version currently, it's on the cards for the future. Hope this explains the differences between a 'Chinese replacement head unit/brand' and a 'Premium quality Brand' solution.

    SilverIris - Drop them an email and ask.

    CPHES - thanks for the mention !

    bimmerflyer - thats one of the Chinese replacement type units but with a larger screen grafted onto the front.

    Franco - Thank you once more for the order and I'm glad you're a happy man

    Tylamb19 - Hopefully your Avin works well and good longer term and has no issues *fingers crossed for you* !

    Cheers, Dennis!

  8. #8
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    So I contacted MCMW Tuning and they stated that there is no DVD/Optical drive. It completely defeats the purpose of buying their product for ~$670 (508 British Pounds, shipped to the USA) vs a competitor's product with the same features for ~$300. Now, I get that they have to recoup their development time/cost, but NOBODY driving a 20+ year old 7-series will buy their product. Maybe if they came up with a way to use an External drive and have it work the same as a comparable E39 unit with internal drive? Then I'd be interested...
    2001 740I M62TUB44: Iris, My daily
    1997 Ford Expedition XLT 5.4L 4x4: Onyx, the 315k mile tow rig

  9. #9
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    SilverIris:

    Just curious: why do you want an optical drive? That's obsolete as an mp3 medium, and I hope you don't want to watch a movie while driving.

    Frankie
    Texas, USA
    frankies-bmw.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
    SilverIris:
    Just curious: why do you want an optical drive? That's obsolete as an mp3 medium, and I hope you don't want to watch a movie while driving.
    The simplest solution is usually the best one. I can swap CDs at a traffic light. It's MUCH harder to dig through 500+ folders, especially if their names are rather long or in another language such as Japanese. Also, think about how long it would take to copy a song to the unit. Put it on a flash drive, go out to the car, then copy onto the android unit. If it's quite a few songs, the time needed goes through the roof. It's FAR quicker to just burn a new CD in 3-4 minutes, one process instead of two.

    Plus, with how these cars often get goofy if battery voltage goes low (Transmission Failsafe anyone?), trying to copy 700mb of music sounds like a good way to turn a good day into a bad one. And should the android unit suddenly shut off for some reason while copying things over, we've suddenly gone from bad to worse. Corrupted files and folder structure is bad juju and I've had enough of file/folder/drive corruption happening because it's Tuesday and a banana whistled in Chinese while licking the color 9. Better to prevent a problem than have to clean up after it happens.
    2001 740I M62TUB44: Iris, My daily
    1997 Ford Expedition XLT 5.4L 4x4: Onyx, the 315k mile tow rig

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverIris View Post
    The simplest solution is usually the best one. I can swap CDs at a traffic light. It's MUCH harder to dig through 500+ folders, especially if their names are rather long or in another language such as Japanese. Also, think about how long it would take to copy a song to the unit. Put it on a flash drive, go out to the car, then copy onto the android unit. If it's quite a few songs, the time needed goes through the roof. It's FAR quicker to just burn a new CD in 3-4 minutes, one process instead of two.

    Plus, with how these cars often get goofy if battery voltage goes low (Transmission Failsafe anyone?), trying to copy 700mb of music sounds like a good way to turn a good day into a bad one. And should the android unit suddenly shut off for some reason while copying things over, we've suddenly gone from bad to worse. Corrupted files and folder structure is bad juju and I've had enough of file/folder/drive corruption happening because it's Tuesday and a banana whistled in Chinese while licking the color 9. Better to prevent a problem than have to clean up after it happens.
    Hi,

    When you look at this with more of a practical over view;

    Lets say you have 6 CD's in a wallet that is kept in the glovebox. You'd need to reach over, open the glovebox and fish out the wallet. Open it up, pull the disk and then press the button on the head unit and then do the swap itself. Aspects that will slow this down, dust/dirt on the disk surface, dropping the disk and then having to pick it up again.
    Lets say you have 20 CD's in a wallet that is kept in the glovebox, as that's about average I used to carry around around 1997/8 in my E34. Slowing things down will be flicking through to find the CD wanted as no one stored them in alphabetical order! Occasionally you'd also realise the CD wanted isn't in this wallet and you remembered it's back on the home hifi or a friend has it! I also sometimes used to carry maybe 30+ disks.

    Back in the early to late 90's this was the only technology available with quicker access compared to audio cassettes.

    Lets fast forward to modern times. an iPod or Phone with 6 CD's worth, or 20, or 30 and 50+ disks worth stored. Usually permanently connected to a head unit, it's a press of a touch screen button, a press again to a letter of the Alphabet and perhaps a few seconds of scrolling and then a couple taps to select an album and then a track. When at home, copying Audio files to say a 4GB audio stick (perhaps 6/8 CD's worth) will take a few minutes. By taking that USB stick to the car and plugging into a modern head unit takes a second or two. To select tracks, its a few taps and scrolls to select the album & track. If you had a 64GB stick and say 100 albums, the selection process is only marginally longer, even if there's long names or japanese or any other language ones. Most people won't copy files from a USB stick to the head unit storage itself, most quality head units don't have any onboard storage anyway.

    Yes there's a risk that a USB stick or ipod/iphone may corrupt itself. A Physical CD might be dropped/scratched/snapped/lost in comparison - ie in both cases, 100% non playback possible.

    Since the early to late 90's, then through the decade of the 00's and now the decade of the 10's, disk use in the car has and is declining and convenience has taken over. Streaming audio is now much more popular - no need to carry lots of disks, and for some, no need to buy ipods/USB sticks etc.

    SilverIris - I think you've been wanting a solution for a few years now and as time passes, it's looking less and less likely you'll get a unit you want. There's plenty of E38 owners who are buying any one of the cheap chinese replacement units at all the varying price points. Most of the chinese units do have an AV input i believe, so you can spend some more and buy a slimline disk drive and connect and locate that in the car if you *must* carry CD's around and all the hassle of changing disks in the car or, you can move with the times and make things easier in the car!

    Cheers, Dennis!

  12. #12
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    I like the old fashioned 6 CD changer I have on both the wagon and the 750, but with the concept of playlists on an mp3 / iPod device, I am coming around. My only push to keep the OE units is because they are OE. I already rely on the gps / nav on the phone.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCooper View Post
    Since the early to late 90's, then through the decade of the 00's and now the decade of the 10's, disk use in the car has and is declining and convenience has taken over. Streaming audio is now much more popular - no need to carry lots of disks, and for some, no need to buy ipods/USB sticks etc.

    SilverIris - I think you've been wanting a solution for a few years now and as time passes, it's looking less and less likely you'll get a unit you want. There's plenty of E38 owners who are buying any one of the cheap chinese replacement units at all the varying price points. Most of the chinese units do have an AV input i believe, so you can spend some more and buy a slimline disk drive and connect and locate that in the car if you *must* carry CD's around and all the hassle of changing disks in the car or, you can move with the times and make things easier in the car!

    Cheers, Dennis!
    I took a roadtrip a couple days ago and finally got a chance to use the 6-disc CD changer in my E38. Gotta say I like how it worked and sounded, despite having a seemingly blown driver's door speaker (annoying, but easily resolved). But for being on the road for ~3 hours total, I went through all 6 CDs. Sometimes you're in the mood for Metallica, sometimes it's F-Zero's Mute City, or something completely different. Being able to use MP3 CDs would counteract this "boredom" quite well as most of mine have a WIDE variety on them. I have no issue with streaming services, but they do rely on cell signal to function and a few places I've recently been to are complete dead zones in that manner. Another minus is that without cell signal, Google Maps gets knocked out unless you make an offline copy ahead of time.

    DennisCooper, how would one use an external drive on an android unit, to the same degree as one with the drive built in? An external USB drive can be put anywhere, such as the center console storage box. For comparison, the android unit in my Expedition recognizes a disc when you put it in and the appropriate player opens up. CDs and MP3 CDs bring up the standard disc player, DVDs pop up the video player, etc.

    So far, I've not been able to find a definitive answer to that question, which is why I've not done anything in this area yet. Perhaps you're a bit more familiar with the ins/outs of the Android OS than I am. If you have a solution to this software/hardware issue, then you've solved the $64,000 question. And if you come up with a tidy way to package an optical drive in the center console storage box for a reasonable price, I'll be the first in line to buy one. I have an extra storage box to prototype it with

    External slot load drives are pretty cheap and easy to find, here's one for $22 shipped and it's barely bigger than a CD or DVD: https://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Externa....c100005.m1851

    As for navigation, I have a dumb but smart question: With the iBus Interface, we know it can control the CD changer and that's great. What about the other iBus devices like the MkIV navigation drive? Can it pull and display data from there? Granted, it is kind of old tech with a clunky interface (mine is stock MkIV), but it's a proven system that works offline. With some of the updates available, it might be a good alternative to Google Maps in areas with iffy or no cell signal.
    Last edited by SilverIris; 10-25-2020 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Added example
    2001 740I M62TUB44: Iris, My daily
    1997 Ford Expedition XLT 5.4L 4x4: Onyx, the 315k mile tow rig

  14. #14
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    Hi,

    CPHES - There is still a certain attraction to CD's, much as there's plenty of people who still prefer Vinyl records and Cassettes. They have their place for sure and being an avid music lover and a preference for excellent quality audio performance/reproduction without classing myself as an 'audiophile' I understand others who love the older formats. New technology also has it's place for convenience when compared to the older formats and sheer technological marvel on what can be done nowadays!

    SilverIris - I have 3000+ CD's in my collection amassed over the years, I still have my cassettes too, plenty have gotten thrown out over the years, it's the better quality ones that remain ;



    These are TDK MA-XG cassettes, the absolute top end available back in the day and I still have these despite having no cassette deck for well over 15 years now! I get it about the old formats, I haven't spun any of my CD's in years either, pretty much all the content is available digitally now. I need to buy a few 8 TB hard disks and do direct 1:1 copies of my CD's so I can have them in a digital library!

    As I mention above, things have moved on, disks in the car is declining in use/popularity. The 'average' size of a digital music collection is around 16GB worth, which is why a few years ago, the iPods with 4/8/16GB sizing capacities were very popular. Given that 'most' people aren't into good/excellent sound quality, they'd 'compress' to MP3 so that they could fit on a lot more music - which is fine of course. a 16GB library of MP3 compressed files say to a 'medium' level of file size (not the most compressed level basically) is still easy and quick to navigate around using a touchscreen head unit. Like you mention, when out driving, the mood to change genre's of music can change in an instant- I couldn't be limited to 6 CD's worth ! and I couldn't be limited to having to carry 20 or so disks around either.

    Although my background is in software, I have zero experience in tinkering with Android etc. I'm not going to be spending significant amounts of money developing a solution to incorporate a disk drive into a head unit that is made in an E38 shape. You already know I don't do low quality and grade solutions and the costs to develop something 'reliable' means any retail solution won't be at the $300 price level you seem to be at. I've met and spoken with car audio manufacturers to evaluate possible routes forward and although I can indeed manufacture solutions every BMW owner would want, the retail cost is massively increased. For instance, at the CES show & various industry trade shows, I spoke to specialists to get the OEM BMW modules 'updated' to modern electronics. 100% oem looks, all the physical modules remain as is - its all the internal electronics that are upgraded , new screen with higher resolution & touch screen and all OEM functionality and features intact. The retail cost would have been in the £2500 to £3K level and then there'd have been the costs to do the actual physical opening up of the old modules and swapping in the new electronics. Pretty much 97+ % of BMW owners of the 1996-2006 era will not spend that much at all.

    I know you've asked questions previously about this, and technically, you are right, all IS possible and CAN be done. It's the cost to get them done to an acceptable quality level isn't at the 'bargain basement' level you want/mention.

    I'm due to get more pricing for doing this again. Technology moves on fast, so I will be speaking to the right manufacturers again to see if the costs have/can be significantly lower nowadays. I daresay they will be lower, but not as low as you want by a long margin.

    As an update, I'm working on a solution to have the OBC functionality available when using a high quality and reliable brand head unit and my fascias concept as these two aspects are the 2 biggest concerns for BMW owners. The cost will be very reasonable too given I'll be sticking to my fundamental of high quality & reliable in every aspect.

    Cheers, Dennis!

  15. #15
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    The 'average' size of a digital music collection is around 16GB worth
    My Sailor Moon music folder is 4.7gb and has almost 2000 songs by itself. And my classic Video Game music folder is currently at 20gb/11,000 songs and still being calculated...


    Pretty much 97+ % of BMW owners of the 1996-2006 era will not spend that much at all
    Agreed, most proportion the cost of mods/upgrades to the purchase price of the car.

    As far as developing a solution for optical disc use in an E38 Android application, I'm probably not the best person to ask either. However, perhaps the answer is simpler than you think? With an OTG Cable, an android device can host other devices. This is how I have a wireless keyboard/remote on my Amazon FireTV Stick. While I've seen discussion about optical drives working on tablets with an OTG cable, I wasn't sure how it would translate to a Double Din or comparable Android headunit. And by extension, if it's been done on a tablet, there's a solid chance that all of the software bits have been figured out already. That's the nice thing about Android, everything is open source so it's (comparatively) easier to develop for.

    Actually, that gave me an idea:
    My Expedition's android headunit recognizes a USB drive with no fuss. And with an OTG cable, my phone can see a USB drive too. So maybe the hosting capabilities are already there, along with all of the needed hardware? Might be worth an experiment to see if it can read files from a cheap USB optical drive. If it can, it's just a matter of physical mounting.

    OBC Functionality has already been done via the Resler iBus USB interface and Android app. Kind of silly to re-invent the wheel, ya know?

    I do understand wanting to do the best job you can, I'm of the same mindset with everything I make too. It's why my Workshop Manuals are the gold standard when it comes to Mazda Rotaries. But every entrepreneur has to look at the entire picture to see if the Return On Investment is there or not. Most of the time, it comes down to value for the end customer. For example, part of one of my wiring manuals has a square "dithering" pattern on some pages for things like control units. I could spend DAYS trying to re-create it pixel-perfect, or get it ~90% with some targeted photoshop copy/paste in under 30 minutes. Which approach adds value to the product?

    I went with Option 2 and got the manual finished a week earlier. Everyone that pre-ordered it for $40 was VERY pleased, and it meant the $60 finished product price took effect sooner. Since total development time was 8 weeks, adding a week would have added 17% in development cost and zero in added value. Bottom line is that the customer would have gotten nothing for the added $10, and that would negatively affect profits from it. In Ecomonics, I believe this is called Demand Curve. It's just the nature of the beast.

    Anyway, back to the proposed Optical Drive Retrofit. It's in the center console, behind a door, in a box that is entirely black. It doesn't have to be 100% perfect. 90% would make the customer VERY happy, especially since most E38 owners aren't willing to spend boatloads on it as you pointed out earlier. One idea is that if you know of a suitable drive that works as proposed, just make a template for modifying the existing box and sell that. I did that with my Expedition to perform what I call the 5-switch mod on the Overhead Console. For $5, an hour with a Dremel, it's an easy way to control fun toys like extra lights, winch, etc, using stock parts you can find anywhere. Since the console is a popular retrofit for F150 Lightning/Harley-Davidson models too, the template is quite handy for things such as a manual on switch for the supercharger cooling pump. Big market, cheap price and LOTS of value from it. It sells itself.

    Even if the template's price was doubled, there's not an E38 owner alive that would say it's too expensive...
    2001 740I M62TUB44: Iris, My daily
    1997 Ford Expedition XLT 5.4L 4x4: Onyx, the 315k mile tow rig

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