Questions after replacing the head gasket - 1984 325E

[msservices]

I’m just saying if for some reason the torque wrench was questionable...cheap, old, left for dead out in the rain, etc...then they may not have gotten to the 22lbs before the 90 degree stages, then they could still be at least checked with another wrench perhaps. I have no idea what kinds of tools people are using and I have heard of torque wrenches being calibrated but if he trusts it, then we have to trust it

[aaverhulst]

I agree with superj and msservices on this. For driving just a few miles, it seems to me you have a bad leak. I'd loosen and re-torque the bolts. Did you chase the bolts holes before putting in the new bolts? Doesn't seem like you have much to lose by trying.

[eppy]

How long has it been run since the new hg was installed? If it's very little you can loosen and retighten and they won't break.


I have had to reuse those bolts in emergency/no money situations and they were fine

I've driven it less than 10 miles, plus a few start ups. The torque wrench I used was brand new, didn't seem at too hard to torque each bolt to 22ft lbs. I did abandon the torque angle tool about half way through as it was a pain in the ass to use, plus it broke on me. I did the 90 degrees to eye. Which if its off, might only be of by a a few threads, if that.

So if i go this route, I pressure test the cooling system (how?)

The only way I've been able to "test" is to drain fluids, new oil new coolant and see if it's mixing again.

[eppy]

I agree with superj and msservices on this. For driving just a few miles, it seems to me you have a bad leak. I'd loosen and re-torque the bolts. Did you chase the bolts holes before putting in the new bolts? Doesn't seem like you have much to lose by trying.

Didn't chase the bolt holes, but did my best to clean them, which from eye, didn't seem all to necessary. Now that I remember, there was a bit about oiling the bolts. Someone who's done this in the past, what type of oil did you use/is it necessary?

And yes the leak seems rather aggressive and immediate. For a moment I thought I might have installed the gasket backwards or upside down, but it's pretty much impossible to do so with a brain. It won't seat properly any other way than the right way.

[Jeffnhiscars]

I’m just saying if for some reason the torque wrench was questionable...cheap, old, left for dead out in the rain, etc...then they may not have gotten to the 22lbs before the 90 degree stages, then they could still be at least checked with another wrench perhaps. I have no idea what kinds of tools people are using and I have heard of torque wrenches being calibrated but if he trusts it, then we have to trust it

My point is..lets say he tests the torque wrench and its off by ohhh...10%. Theres no way to correct that at this stage and does it really make a difference ? Did he use an angle guage for the 90s ? I never have so Im sure my 90s may be 88s or 92s just as my 22lbs might be 20 or 24. Point being its the metallurgy in the TTY bolts that creates, in theory, a consistent clamping force...once....torque to yield stretch bolts. There is no do over and even if there was its pretty obvious the head has to come back off and get done right.

No band aids here

[superj]

I think it's probably been torqued down fine. 22 and work out wards, then turn by hand the recommended degrees. I never used a gage, by eye also, on a number or vehicles with no problems

You can borrow a pressure tester from your local auto parts store

[eppy]

I'm a bit torn on what to do next. I do think it's best to just tear the fucker down again. So a couple questions...

1. Is the only place oil and coolant can mix throughout the engine somewhere in the head? I.E. seepage between the coolant holes and oil holes running through the block and the head/crack in the passage? If that's true, then my issue has to be somewhere there.

2. What would the coolant pressure gauge tell me? I've never used one before. Would it clearly identify where my leak is happening or just that I'm loosing pressure? Because I already know I'm definitely loosing coolant into my oil. Enough to make my oil dip stick read 1/2 over full. (see photo from earlier).

well, I changed the oil and coolant again. Oil dipstick was was at perfect level and crystal clear oil. Coolant was green. After a 3-4 mile drive, I've got white cream coming through the reservoir. The dipstick is reading higher and also creamy. under the oil cap- literal white milk everywhere.

Attachment 677579

I guess this is what I get for skipping that step on checking trueness of the head. $$$ down the drain. Towing to my mechanic this week. Lesson learned. Hopefully its just the head and doesn't need a completely new top end.

[msservices]

Under normal circumstances, I would not think the exact amount of torque would be as critical as having consistent torque across the board, but since he has a leak, I figured maybe it’s a long shot to look into. As far as pressure testing the cooling system, there are two ways. One, obtain a coolant pressure tester kit that has all the radiator/overflow cap adapters and a handheld pump. The other way, I think you can replace a small cooling hose ( 5/16”)with a tee and two shorter hoses so you can add low pressure air to the system. You should have an isolation valve at the tee so you can close the system once air is in. iYou would need to turn down the regulator to zero on said air compressor before connecting it up and then increase is slowly, and close off the valve and disconnect the compressor otherwise you could end up back charging your air hose with coolant.

[eppy]

I'm a bit torn on what to do next. I do think it's best to just tear the fucker down again. So a couple questions...

1. Is the only place oil and coolant can mix throughout the engine somewhere in the head? I.E. seepage between the coolant holes and oil holes running through the block and the head/crack in the passage? If that's true, then my issue has to be somewhere there.

2. What would the coolant pressure gauge tell me? I've never used one before. Would it clearly identify where my leak is happening or just that I'm loosing pressure? Because I already know I'm definitely loosing coolant into my oil. Enough to make my oil dip stick read 1/2 over full. (see photo from earlier).

can anyone answer these two questions directly?

[superj]

you could have mixing in the block but I have never seen or heard of it on a steel block. there are oil passages around the cylinders in the block but, I have never heard of htem leaking. in the head, and head gasket mating areas you can get leaks between them from the gasket not seating properly, a warped head, or cracks in the head between the valves and between the valves and the spark plug threads or water passages.

the pressure check would only verify your leak.

did you do the white light inspection of the head when you had it off in order to verify there was no cracks visible to the naked eye in the combustion chamber area and the water passage areas? when you pull it off, look over the areas around the water passages and the around the valves and spark plugs.

I agree you can retorque everything, then warm it up and see if you have liquids mixing. it will show up for sure, once warmed up

[eppy]

you could have mixing in the block but I have never seen or heard of it on a steel block. there are oil passages around the cylinders in the block but, I have never heard of htem leaking. in the head, and head gasket mating areas you can get leaks between them from the gasket not seating properly, a warped head, or cracks in the head between the valves and between the valves and the spark plug threads or water passages.

the pressure check would only verify your leak.

did you do the white light inspection of the head when you had it off in order to verify there was no cracks visible to the naked eye in the combustion chamber area and the water passage areas? when you pull it off, look over the areas around the water passages and the around the valves and spark plugs.

I agree you can retorque everything, then warm it up and see if you have liquids mixing. it will show up for sure, once warmed up

Thank you for the detailed reply. So since I just replaced the head gasket and having this issue, it must be, as you said, somewhere in the head. Whether that's the mating surface, a warped head/cracks somewhere in the head.

I did not have the head checked in any way.

As others have pointed out - I'm getting a serious leak. Not just a few splotches of oil in the coolant or vice versa, but full on fluids mixing. I feel like I might be wasting time and money retroque-ing and refluid-ing the car.

Is it not best to just get at the head again and take it into a machine shop?

[eppy]

Popped the valve cover off. Here are some photos just to see how bad this really is. green coolant everywhere in the valve train. I guess I'll go rent a torque wrench. I know I did that part right. It wasn't rocket science. There's got to be something up with this head.

IMG_4657.jpgIMG_4658.jpgIMG_4659.jpg

[superj]

I would say just pull it, from your pics. That's a lot of coolant. All the vehicles I have done head gaskets or put new heads on and it never came out like that.

Two two or three that had cracked heads, had coolant and oil mixing thoroughly, like yours appears to be mixing. In your radiator, under the cap, is it sticking and chocolate milk looking?

That green is funny. When I had leaks, everything mixed and because light chocolate looking. And the radiator cap was coated on the bottom with oily fluid and the coolant reservoir had oily fluid in it

- - - Updated - - -

That last pic looks like it getting chocolaty.

[eppy]

Anyone know of a reputable machine shop in Los Angeles?

Does my valve train have to come out for them to do the job? If so, does the valve train need to be retimed? This is starting to get outside of my comfort zone in work I can/willing to do on my own... If this is easier than it sounds, I'm in. if not might just go this route: E30 ETA 2.7 Head on EBay

[superj]

I no longer know anyone out that way. There used to be a good guy in riverside/corona area but that was back in the e30tech days and I haven't spoken to him in about 10-12 years

[msservices]

I still say pressure test before disassembling, you owe it to yourself to find out what is really going on there. The coolant could be coming from the block or the head, or head gasket

[superj]

its easy enough to pressure check. you can do it really quickly

[eppy]

I still say pressure test before disassembling, you owe it to yourself to find out what is really going on there. The coolant could be coming from the block or the head, or head gasket

the coolant test isn’t going to show me where the issue is. Right? It’s just going to show me that there is an issue? Which I know there is one. Please correct me if I’m wrong but the pressure test seems redundant. The read our won’t say whether it’s from the head gasket or the block... will it somehow?

[superj]

maybe with the valve cover off, if its a crack in the head, you will see the coolant pushing through?

[eppy]

maybe with the valve cover off, if its a crack in the head, you will see the coolant pushing through?

I’m about to finish retorque-ing. This might have been a case of hydro lock. Lots of oil on the bolts when I took them out. So got into each bolt hole and threads with a pipe cleaner, solvent, and a shop vac with a piece of rubber hose connected to suck out whatever was down there.

SJ- you’re saying change fluids then run engine with valve cover off?

[lulu]

Pressure test with the valve cover off and you may be able to see the coolant flowing out a crack, this can be done with engine off , or removed head and inspect around the exhaust valves or coolant passages you may see the cracks

[eppy]

retorqued. new fuilds. Same issue. Milk under the oil cap. Coolant disappearing. Oil level rising. Head must be toasted.

[superj]

that sucks. usually you can get E heads cheap on ebay though, with a short warranty to allow installation and testing

[Jeffnhiscars]

the coolant test isn’t going to show me where the issue is. Right? It’s just going to show me that there is an issue? Which I know there is one. Please correct me if I’m wrong but the pressure test seems redundant. The read our won’t say whether it’s from the head gasket or the block... will it somehow?

glad to see you've sifted through all the "suggestions" and reached the only obvious conclusion...that no amount of testing or torquing is going to change the fact that the head was not properly prepared and needs to come off. Lesson learned I'm sure.

[eppy]

glad to see you've sifted through all the "suggestions" and reached the only obvious conclusion...that no amount of testing or torquing is going to change the fact that the head was not properly prepared and needs to come off. Lesson learned I'm sure.

lesson. learned.