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Thread: tire temp distribution vs camber

  1. #26
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    of course corner entry speed is not as important as cornering speed or corner exit speed

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haifisch M3 View Post
    of course corner entry speed is not as important as cornering speed or corner exit speed
    Yup ... you don't need to brake as much, if you can carry more speed

    I mean ... it's all important. The trick is getting the balance that makes it fastest right!

    Edit: This is my gut feeling, but under braking, there SO much more tire being pressed into the track that the camber really doesn't affect it much. Again, just a guess!
    Last edited by ScotcH; 08-21-2020 at 03:23 PM.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotcH View Post
    Yup ... you don't need to brake as much, if you can carry more speed

    I mean ... it's all important. The trick is getting the balance that makes it fastest right!

    Edit: This is my gut feeling, but under braking, there SO much more tire being pressed into the track that the camber really doesn't affect it much. Again, just a guess!
    I will definitely keep a close eye on tire pressure and temp distribution...and stay away from over inflating ...Got rid of all the toe, both front and back as well

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haifisch M3 View Post
    I will definitely keep a close eye on tire pressure and temp distribution...and stay away from over inflating ...Got rid of all the toe, both front and back as well
    Put the rear toe-in back ... you definitely want rear toe-in, 1/16 per side. It'll be sketchy with zero or toe out, especially if you don't have solid everything (suspension flex will toe-out ... bad for handling).
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotcH View Post
    Put the rear toe-in back ... you definitely want rear toe-in, 1/16 per side. It'll be sketchy with zero or toe out, especially if you don't have solid everything (suspension flex will toe-out ... bad for handling).
    actually found that had rear toe out and had to bring it in , handles a lot better already...was shifting during hard acceleration before ...
    now stays steady

  6. #31
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    I'm pretty sure these cars add rear toe when the suspension lifts. So with 0 static, you can easily go to positive rear toe dynamically. Threshold braking, over crests, etc.

  7. #32
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    had set the rear Toe by leaning a long straight-edge (steel square tubing) and aiming it toward the front tires

    just checked rear toe conventional method and have exactly 1/16" positive toe (in) with 3 deg camber.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haifisch M3 View Post
    had set the rear Toe by leaning a long straight-edge (steel square tubing) and aiming it toward the front tires

    just checked rear toe conventional method and have exactly 1/16" positive toe (in) with 3 deg camber.
    Perfect. You might want a tiny bit more if you don't have all solid joints, but that will certainly better than toe-out!
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
     The goal is to get all four tires with a as close to perfect heating pattern as possible. Occasionally, I briefly manage that for a given track condition. Those settings always coincide with my fastest laps. Expect it to take a few sessions of tuning if you are starting from scratch. Highly recommend keeping a notebook will all your measurements, brief driving impressions, car set up and of course, lap times.

    • Without a cool down lap, get the car stopped safely but quickly in the pits
    • Start with the tires on the outside of the track, example: left tires on CW track
    • Start with the inside and work out; Inside, Center, Outside.
    • The shoulder measurement must be in the scuffed an heated part of the tread, usually 1/2~ 1" inboard of the extreme edge of the tread. Not the shiny unused outer corner.
    • Put the probe into the exact same area of the tread on each tire and push in the same amount.
    • For a given car, always use the same sequence.
    • You should see a 5~10° drop from inside to center, then the same drop from center to outside shoulder. The total gradient that works best for radials on the loaded side of the car (outside of track) is usually 15-20° in even steps.
    • The outside tires (left side on clockwise course) are the important ones. It is possible for the more lightly loaded inside course tires to display a greater temp delta of 20-30° on cars with a lot of static camber and stiffer suspensions (more than OEM specs). This is normal and usually doesn't need to be corrected.

    Center too hot - example: I 170° - C 180° - O 170°
    Too high air pressure. This can be too high cold or "starting" pressure or excessive heat caused by sliding due to car setup or driving style.

    Center too low - example: I 180° - C 160° - O 170°
    Too low air pressure. This can be too low cold or "starting" pressure, car setup or driving style.

    Inside high or low - example: I 190° - C 175° - O 160°
    Too much toe out or negative camber can cause excessively high inside edge temps. The way to differentiate is if both LF and RF have the same delta, it's toe. If the outside course tires have a much different delta than the inside course tires, it's usually camber. Also, excessive toe out will usually show a scalloping or feathering of the tread where camber will not.

    Outside high or low - example: I 170° - C 180° - O 200°
    This is the pattern most commonly seen on production based cars and is usually caused by insufficient negative camber. One band-aid fix is to help make it through the day is to overinflate the tires to raise center temps. This can help reduce the workload of the overheated outside shoulder

    With the pyro, you're seeing vehicle configuration, weather, setup, and driving style.

    Example: Too much front sway bar/spring and not enough camber? Front tires significantly hotter than rear, outside shoulders hotter than inside.

    Example: Rears like 50° hotter than fronts? Too much drifting

    Example: All tires low temps? First session, cold day on old tires
    Excellent write up! Thank you.

    In circumstances where it is not possible to get truly hot readings, is there a general rule by how much tire temps will drop over a given period of time or distance?

    At a place like Lime Rock, it's 1400 ft from pit in to where I typically park; lets say it take 90 seconds from the time I pit in to when I am taking the first tire temp. For sale of argument, I am ignoring weather variables.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkRacing View Post
    Excellent write up! Thank you.

    In circumstances where it is not possible to get truly hot readings, is there a general rule by how much tire temps will drop over a given period of time or distance?

    At a place like Lime Rock, it's 1400 ft from pit in to where I typically park; lets say it take 90 seconds from the time I pit in to when I am taking the first tire temp. For sale of argument, I am ignoring weather variables.
    That's a tough one ... I'd say it's probably pointless at that point. You should partner with someone and take temps in pit lane, and if possible, using a probe
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  11. #36
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    That was my concern. Just purchased a pyrometer and am looking forward to using it. Unfortunately, more often than not, my friends are on track at the same time as me.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkRacing View Post
    That was my concern. Just purchased a pyrometer and am looking forward to using it. Unfortunately, more often than not, my friends are on track at the same time as me.
    The upside here, is that your tire will cool at the same rate across the surface of the tire when sitting in the paddock. So even if your reading isn't completely in real-time (or as close as possible - i.e. having a friend standing there like an F1 pit crew ready to take readings), the rate of cooling is consistent, which means the delta between the numbers will still be valid in helping you tune your set-up.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    The upside here, is that your tire will cool at the same rate across the surface of the tire when sitting in the paddock. So even if your reading isn't completely in real-time (or as close as possible - i.e. having a friend standing there like an F1 pit crew ready to take readings), the rate of cooling is consistent, which means the delta between the numbers will still be valid in helping you tune your set-up.
    Nope.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Nope.
    No? Please enlighten me.

    EDIT: I've always understood that tires cool fast and it gets harder to discern issues with set-up if you wait to long as the numbers will be smaller but still valuable data. Is there some theory in thermodynamics why tires cool at different rates?

    This article also seems to support most of my current understanding:

    https://nasaspeed.news/tech/wheels-t...the-racetrack/
    Last edited by golgo13; 08-31-2020 at 08:07 PM.

  15. #40
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    Heat transfers more quickly when delta-T is higher. The hottest section cools more rapidly than the cooler section. Wait 5 minutes, and the face of the tire will still be significantly above ambient, but equal across the face.

    I don't see anything in that article that doesn't support the value of taking temperatures as quickly as possible when pulling off track. I didn't read the whole thing, but the article certainly supported getting temperatures as quickly as possible, and to use the same routine so that the time it takes to walk around the car doesn't confuse the results.

    That's not to say some good information can't be had after pulling into the pits and taking temps.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    Heat transfers more quickly when delta-T is higher. The hottest section cools more rapidly than the cooler section. Wait 5 minutes, and the face of the tire will still be significantly above ambient, but equal across the face.
    I see. Okay, thank you for the clarification.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    I see. Okay, thank you for the clarification.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haifisch M3 View Post
    yes after pitting measured with infrared reader. Also read that inner should be warmer than outer, so more camber needed.
    I have Turner plates and could add washers to get me there. Currently just under 3 degrees front and about 2.5 rear
    Use a probe type sensor. Infrared will read high on the inside edge and low on the outside edge.
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