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Thread: I am buying an E36 M3, Things I should know?

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    I am buying an E36 M3, Things I should know?

    Hi guys, so I am new to the forums and I came across an E36 M3 with about 130k miles. I am looking to buy the car and wanted to do my due diligence on getting a better understanding of what I should know before buying an E36 M3. This would be my first M vehicle and I just want to make a decent purchase. In general any advice would be helpful. I have been doing research but I think one of the best ways to get a better understanding is just by talking to the people who already own E36's so my goal is to immerse myself in the forums and build one of my dream cars.

    so any
    1. Things you should ask before buying
    2. First action items once you have bought the car
    3. Best places in the DC, MD, VA area that work on these vehicles (for those who live in the area)
    4. Realistic costs associated with a full cosmetic upgrade (i.e. paint, body kit, tires and wheels)
    5. Mechanical issues that tend to pop up

    If this post is in the wrong area I apologize, I am trying to get acclimated with the forum and please excuse my inexperience with these cars, I am here to learn more as I go along
    thanks

  2. #2
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    Hi, welcome to the forum, I will move the thread from E36 forum to the E36 M3 forum.
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    Before you buy you have to get it inspected at a shop and ideally have them do a compression test. Its supper important that the cooling system is rock solid. If you ever get a coolant leak or you notice the engine temp above 12 o'clock position don't drive the car, get a tow, people think they can limp the car home and they end up damaging the engine. $$$$
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    Morning.

    You're headed in the right direction by doing some homework before committing to the car. Everyone has their own experiences with this car but the general consensus is that if you take care of the car, spend some money on preventative maintenance, the car will take care of you in return. That being said, it is a ~25 year old German sports car that will need continuous love and care to keep on the road and in good condition, it's not going to be like the Honda Civic in that you change the oil once a year and kick the tires every six months.

    I always run a Carfax on anything I buy. It'd be helpful if the previous owner has any service records from his ownership or prior. I'd look to see when the last time the cooling system components were replaced, if any VANOs work has been done, the condition of bushings (rear trailing arms in particular) and would try and to a compression test to confirm the health of the engine. It's not uncommon for these cars to have head gasket issues.

    "Cosmetic upgrades" can mean a lot of things, so it's hard to define costs. No one does body kits on these, usually it's a front lip/splitter, Style 24 wheels, and a GT Class wing. Paint pricing and wheels and tires all vary on what you need done.

    The Forums here are typically much more friendly and helpful than some of the other boards I'm on. Enjoy your stay.

    Past: '99 Hellrot/Dove M3/2/5 | '97 S14 1JZ | '06 Triumph Daytona 675 | '01 330I M-Tech I | Current: '96 Estoril/Black M3/2/5

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    Good advice so far.

    Square one is records. This is a relatively low mileage car. As such, it is likely to be either very original / very well cared for, or has been sitting.

    Mechanicals are easy to address - these cars were built to be repaired, and the community is fantastic - you should be able to find a DIY to fix any issue you come across. If it's rough cosmetically (inside or out), too some degree that's just a check you'll have to write.

    If it's rough cosmetically, I'd be in the $5-7k ballpark. If it's in good cosmetic shape, if you're getting it for less than $10k, it will likely need many of the things already mentioned. If it's more than $15k, I'd expect that work to be already done.

    See what records they have as a starting point.

    This is a relatively common question - I'm surprised we don't have one of the better threads stickied to the top of the forum.

    Maybe some of us regulars will be proactive and see if we can find one of those to sticky to the top.

    What has been listed so far are the most important things to check.

  6. #6
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    Thanks so much for all the good advice and the well wishes!

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    Number 1 is to get a thorough inspection by a good BMW shop. They will give you an itemized list of defects and needed work, and usually some idea of cost. I think a lot of people kid themselves on actual cost of buying and owning one of these cars (assuming the owner wants to keep it in tip top shape). Cheaper than a Porsche for sure but still a German car.
    These cars are old enough where they require a lot of ongoing maintenance. A $15K car suddenly becomes a $20-$25K car because of all the needed work. A lot of us do the work ourselves because it is what we like to do and our labor is cheap. Shop work can be quite expensive. Good luck!

  8. #8
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    If you're mechanically inclined at all and willing to do work yourself or learn to do it from the many resources online, I'd try to ensure that you get a car which is first and foremost in good shape cosmetically inside/out and has a solid drivetrain with no issues (engine runs well, no transmission or diff issues). If there are other things that need to be addressed like oil leaks from the valve cover, bushings/mounts/ball joints/bearings, cooling system stuff, door lock actuators, climate control resistors, or any other stuff that is relatively easy to DIY you should favor that over the stuff that isn't easy to DIY and is in fact extremely expensive like bodywork or interiors. Even small scratches or dents can be extremely expensive to properly fix/blend into the rest of the paint work, and properly respraying an entire car is many thousands of dollars.
    Last edited by TostitoBandito; 07-29-2020 at 12:56 AM.
    1999 M3/2/5 - Titanium Silver - Track/Weekend Toy


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    Parts are kinda pricey and the community will expect you to spend top dollar on everything and keep it absolutely perfect, lol..
    Simple things like rubber pieces will eat you alive, especially for M specific parts..
    Vanos is easy.. OBD1 is hard to diagnose problems with, it's basically all guessing.. Dual mass flywheels are loud and so are the valvetrains..

    Quote Originally Posted by JitteryJoe View Post
    Cheaper than a Porsche for sure but still a German car.
    My Porsche is way cheaper for most things and also faster in every direction
    Trying to think of anything more expensive on the Pcar.. Maybe the wastegate, exhaust manifold, and the transmission..
    Other than that the M is by far more expensive.. Name a part..
    Ah.. Rod bolts might be another..

    M car is much more refined feeling though.. Great fun DD car to rip around in if you don't mind endlessly replacing the half luxury/half sporty suspension bits that don't last..
    Last edited by fasteddie313; 07-29-2020 at 05:38 PM.
    E36 M3 S50 - E53 X5 M54 - 1980 Porsche 931 - 2001 Impreza RS25

  10. #10
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    Areas of Concern:

    Lower Control Arm Bushing Failure

    Symptoms: Undesired front toe changes during cornering, vague and rubbery feel in steering, vibration while braking at freeway speeds. If you are experiencing any of these symptoms, you likely have a torn or cracked lower control arm bushing. Non-M bushings are commonly replaced with M3 bushings to increase performance with little to no change in comfort.

    Tie Rod Wear

    Symptoms: Steering shimmy, clunking during steering input, inability to hold proper alignment. If any ball joint boot is cracked as indicated by grease coming out, it must be replaced. All components should also be checked for excessive play, and replaced if out of BMW spec.

    Worn or Blown Shocks and Struts

    Symptoms: Diving under braking and acceleration, excessive lean and suspension compression during cornering, bouncy and uncomfortable ride, shocks and struts visibly leaking shock oil. Factory BMW shocks work very well for 30k miles, but they quit by 60k miles. Because the deterioration is gradual, most BMW drivers hardly notice until the 60K mile mark. Most people recommend replacing factory units with quality shocks from Koni whenever possible. When replacing shocks and struts, install lowering springs and adjust other areas of the suspension. You will be amazed at the difference a good set of shocks can make in both comfort and performance.

    Worn or Failed Swaybar Endlinks

    Symptoms: Metallic clicking noise and compromised handling. There is no critical danger in a failed swaybar endlink, but the handling of the car will be severely compromised. Ease of handling can be restored by simple replacement with new endlinks.

    Torn Rear Trailing Arm Bushings (RTABs)

    Symptoms: Car feels strange during cornering or excessive rear tire wear. Typical mileage for the RTAB replacement on E36 is approximately 40-50k. Failure to replace could lead to torn subframe and costly repairs. Typical replacement with factory units and RTAB limiting shims is fine here. The shims prevent excessive movement and can double the life of the bushing.

    Torn Rear Shock Mounts

    Symptoms: Pronounced clunking sound during suspension movement, sloppy and erratic handling, excessive rear suspension play. Torn or damaged rear shock mounts can tear right through the trunk carpeting into the passenger cabin, so any of these symptoms should be attended to right away.

    Torn Subframe and Subframe Bushings

    Symptoms: Erratic handling, unidentified clunking and banging sounds from rear of the car. Torn subframe bushings can lead to subframe failure. Non-M 3-series cars do not have the subframe reinforcements built in, and thus tend to tear the mounting areas. This applies to racecars as well as street cars. This can be remedied with installation of the M3 reinforcement kit.

    Torn or Cracked Transmission Mounts

    Symptoms: Hard, notchy, forced shifting while cornering, excessive shifter jerk during hard acceleration and braking, muddy shifter feel. Torn transmission mounts can lead to the dreaded ‘money shift,’ or mechanical overrev and probable destruction of the car’s motor. Worn transmission mounts allow for an excess amount of transmission movement. Stock replacements are just okay—we recommend stronger aftermarket replacements..

    Ripped or Failed Guibo

    Symptoms: Loud clunking sound before acceleration as the guibo bolts bind together. A torn guibo (Flex Disc) results in perceivable drivetrain elasticity.

    Water Pump Failure

    Symptom: Rapidly overheating motor. Water pump failure is the easiest way to cause extensive and expensive damage to your BMW. When the bearing or impeller on the stock pump breaks, it disables the cooling system and can result in a warped head or even more severe engine damage. If your temperature gauge climbs above the ¾ mark, turn off the car and get it towed.

    To prevent water pump failure, most people change out the water pump on six cylinder cars every 60-80k miles.

    Cracked Radiator Necks

    Symptom: Possible drastic drop in coolant level, possible overheating motor, but often no symptoms showing whatsoever. Unfortunately for BMW owners everywhere, the makers of this beautiful car love plastic radiators. These radiators become brittle and crack with age, particularly around the neck and often without warning. To prevent costly repairs or devastating damage, radiators should be replaced routinely every 80-100k miles.

    Cracked and Failed Thermostat Housings

    Symptoms: Car running hot or cold.

    For 6 cylinder cars only, the factory thermostat housing can eventually crack causing cooling system failure. Replacement with an aluminum housing, or with the new composite units every 60k miles will prevent problems. Most people replace the thermostat while the housing is off.

    All S50/52 and M50/52 thermostats should be replaced at the same interval of 60k miles. Sometimes they fail in the Open position (car runs cold) sometimes in the Closed position (car runs hot). If your temperature gauge climbs above the ¾ mark, turn the car off and get it towed to a shop.

    Fan Clutch Failure

    Symptom: Fan clutch shows low resistance after driving (while the engine is still warm) when manually turning the fan clutch. Most fan clutches fail between 80k and 100k miles. They provide the primary cooling for your car and are easy for us to diagnose. If, after driving the car and while the engine is still warm, you do not feel a significant amount of resistance when trying to manually turn the fan clutch, most people replace immediately.

    Accessory Belt and Tensioner Failure

    Symptoms: Squealing noise from the engine bay and/or cracks in the belts, temperature gauge rising above the ¾ mark. If a belt snaps, the cooling system will fail as the water pump ceases to operate. Power steering and alternator will also fail. If you suspect belt failure, turn off the car and have it towed to a shop.

    Leaky Valve Cover Gasket

    Symptom: Burning oil smell. Prevalent on all BMWs. If uncorrected, oil can seep into the spark plug holes and damage the ignition coils, resulting in costly replacement. Most replacing this inexpensive gasket when changing spark plugs as the coil packs will already be exposed.

    O2 Sensor Failure

    Symptoms: Poor mileage, poor idle and flat spots in the power curve. Even if your check engine light is on, your car may not be performing optimally. BMW recommends replacing the O2 sensors every 100k miles. Extended high-RPM running/racing and high-performance chips may shorten the replacement cycle.

    Funky Window Regulators and Motors

    Symptoms: Window in car jumps up and down, or one-touch feature fails. A mechanical inspection is needed in order to determine which part of the two parts needs replacement.

    Clogged and Dirty Pollen Filter

    Symptoms: Reduced flow of air from A/C or heater, and/or damp and musky smell. If either symptom is evident, it’s likely the pollen microfilter of your car has become dirty and clogged over time.


  11. #11
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    For a 130K mile car (manual I assume) you really need to able to evaluate it quickly yourself and be prepared to pay cash that day if the price is right. Someone WILL show up and pay cash if it is a clean car, has some amount of service records, and drives well. The are all 20 years old now so it will likely need something.

    The "take it for inspection" crew is not wrong, but the reality is that the seller is looking to unload the vehicle for cash, not spend hours taking it for inspection and haggling with you for money off because the guibo has a tear in it. Cash talks. You can get a hell of a deal pouncing quickly on an underpriced clean car. if you need to take for someone else to look at first you are gonna get sent to the back of the "I'm interested" line.
    Last edited by realjones; 07-29-2020 at 06:07 PM.

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    Nice summary. :-)

  13. #13
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    I think the above is fine for a buyer who knows these cars well but very risky for a new comer who does not.

  14. #14
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    I went the route of buying a cheap, not so clean one at the end of 2018. 129k miles, 1999 coupe for $8k. It had a fair bit of rust on the back end around the trunk and tail lights, though strangely perfectly clean underneath, e36s have great factory undercoating. $3k got all the rust repaired professionally and that included installing a new trunk lid.

    I also needed a new drive shaft as it had lost a ballance weight, guibo and all the bushings were shot. A 1.75 years into ownership I've put 25,000 miles on it, autocrossed it a ton and total spent on it is about $15k. Everything is basically perfect now and it drives like a reliable dream.

    Per mile, my e36 M3 has been significantly more reliable and less expensive than the e39 M5 or 2013 R56 Mini S that I had. It's quite cheap in my mind for M car performance.

    I don't know what Porsche other people are comparing their M3 to. I have a friend with a 944, and equivalent parts for that 944 are usually about double the price of the e36 M3 parts. If you want a cheap classic car to play with, an American or British car is the way to go. But if you enjoy driving the Germans are worth the price.

    Good luck and have fun! Hope you find the right one.

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    To piggyback off of pizzaman, I tried to find the cleanest car i could, but with enough miles on it that I wouldn't be afraid of driving it. I ended up getting a '97 sedan with 136K miles for just under $12k out the door. The car spent nearly all of its life in Texas, but the last 4 years had been split between Georgia and NC (where I bought it). No rust, anywhere. There are a few dents and some small spots where the clear coat is fading but overall it is a good 10ft car. The downside of a Texas car (that wasn't garaged regularly) is that the leather inside is pretty dry and brittle (though it doesn't look too bad). The only real damage that I should've caught during the initial look over, but missed, was the cracked/torn driver's rear shock mount. Luckily, I know a good welder and he repaired the mount for a very fair price. Aside from that, the repairs I've made have been exactly what I've expected for a 20+ year old german sports car with over 100K miles.

    Since I bought the car in January of 2019, I have put about 7K miles on it and dropped $5500 into it. Granted, some of those purchases were upgrades and not entirely necessary (Knoi shocks/struts and new springs all around, new steering wheel, x-brace and strut brace, a refinished set of square contours, a set of door cards that were in much better shape than the originals, etc). If you can hold out for a car that has been relatively well taken care of that you just want to keep on the road and running reliably, these cars are very DIY friendly and parts are plentiful and reasonably priced, for the most part. If you take yours to the dealer to do every repair/service, you will be eaten alive.

  16. #16
    RRSperry's Avatar
    RRSperry is offline Senior Moment Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Give me a call. Set up a day to drive from Va to Maryland. Come to my house and we'll put my M3 on the lift and I'll show you what's what. It'll cost you a 6 pack of beer. (actually you can have 3 I'll have 3.

    I'm getting old, have nothing better to do, and have to pass on the knowledge...lol
    No matter where you go, there you are...

  17. #17
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    ^ great offer


  18. #18
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    That IS a great offer, but I don't think he's been back since his reply on July 28th.

    I guess we'll know if he winds up buying it. If he's planning on "building" it, he'll be back sooner than later...

    -Josh
    1998 M3/4/5 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. 250k and getting better every day.

  19. #19
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    I would love to take you up on this offer how's two 12 packs sound!?

  20. #20
    RRSperry's Avatar
    RRSperry is offline Senior Moment Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Well, Bryce came by today, and I showed him my car. Outside, inside, underneath... Then took him for a little ride.

    I hope he posts his impressions. He seems like a nice young man.. (well, 25 is young to me...lol)
    No matter where you go, there you are...

  21. #21
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    Before today, I had never seen an E36 M3 so up close and personal. The beauty of that car left me speechless. I was blessed to be given that opportunity. It was truly an honor to be able to hangout with Rich (RRSperry) and be a sponge, absorbing as much knowledge as possible, he really is a rockstar. Moreover he even offered to take me out in his M3. The acceleration was breathtaking, the corners were exhilarating, the ride was electrifying, he is a helluva driver!

    Initially when I was looking to buy an M3 I thought the car looked cool and I wanted something cool. However, My experience at Rich's helped me come to realization that I truly didn't understand the depth of these cars, the passion behind the detail, and the overall quality of what Rich has cultivated in that mesmerizing blue rocket. Today, I saw my dream car and I now have a better understanding of what I should be looking for. I have a better understanding of how one should care for these vehicles. I have a better understanding of why we all have this affinity for them.

    Lastly, He even gave me some really great advice regarding the buying process. It felt as though I was hanging out with a mentor and friend more so than someone I had just met on the forums a few days prior. Ultimately, I have come to the conclusion that I am not ready for my dream M vehicle yet. I still have much to learn and continuing to save and be patient while I learn is the proper next step. I def plan on visiting again and doing whatever I can to learn as much as possible. I never thought in a million years I would run into someone like Rich so I truly am just thankful to have been able to share the experience.

    Thanks again for having me Rich

  22. #22
    RRSperry's Avatar
    RRSperry is offline Senior Moment Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Not a problem at all, it was my pleasure meeting you.

    And again, don't take my advice the wrong way. If you want an M car, get one. Now you are aware of what that entails, and have some sort of frame of reference when you look at other cars.

    If you find something pretty local, I'd be glad to take a look at it with you..

    Take care.

    Rich
    No matter where you go, there you are...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fasteddie313 View Post
    My Porsche is way cheaper for most things and also faster in every direction
    Trying to think of anything more expensive on the Pcar.. Maybe the wastegate, exhaust manifold, and the transmission..
    Other than that the M is by far more expensive.. Name a part..
    Ah.. Rod bolts might be another.
    I remember the 924 Turbo. Straight line performance in stock form are no better than an E36 M3. The later 944 Turbo S is faster than the E36 M3 according to the 1988 Car and Driver road test that has the Turbo S at 5.5 to 60 and 13.9 at 101 in the quarter versus 5.6 to 60 and 14.3 at 99 for the M3. Of course, with a turbo you can raise the boost a few psi to gain very noticeable power for usually not much money. Turbo E36 M3 is awesome - I turbocharged mine in 2010 and at 11.5 and 134 in the quarter, it’s a big jump from stock.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRSperry View Post
    Not a problem at all, it was my pleasure meeting you.

    And again, don't take my advice the wrong way. If you want an M car, get one. Now you are aware of what that entails, and have some sort of frame of reference when you look at other cars.

    If you find something pretty local, I'd be glad to take a look at it with you..

    Take care.

    Rich
    I think Rich would agree that you don't need to be ready to tackle every little thing the day you buy the car.

    My car is my daily driver, just turned 249k. It's got more dings than you can shake a stick at. My daughter just scraped the front fender on the side of the garage.

    It took me a couple years to sort out the major stuff, and a couple more to address the minor stuff.

    And you'll forever be tweaking things. In addition to the things that wear out over time.

    When I first got the car I spent about $2k / year on maintenance. These days (ten years later) I'm closer to $1k, though if you add the upgrades I'm closer to $1500 / year.

    If the car you're looking at has had some refreshing done, you may be on the lower end of that scale. And most of us have disposable income to put toward the car - you may have to take a little slower route if you have a little less disposable income.

    As long as you can get a ride, take the bus, your bike, or Uber for a week or two once every couple years when something big fails and you have to wait for parts, I'd have no hesitation getting one and planning to daily drive it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    My daughter just scraped the front fender on the side of the garage.
    This happened with the E30 many years ago. We never did catch the person driving the garage...

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