Why is Getting All Motor HP So Hard?

[GG///M3]

I spent S54 swap money to build a 3.0 motor for my E36. It was for an autocross car where transitional power is everything. It had lightweight EVERYTHING in the motor, as well as an aluminum single Vanos block from a 97 Z3. In the end I ended up with this on 94 octane fuel with zero ethanol. I suppose I could have got a bit more torque and more HP if I had gone with E85 (or some blend of the 2).




Now I'm spending probably close to double what I spent the last time, but I'm expecting (not anticipating, EXPECTING, as it's been proven time and again with identical builds in Hondas) 525-550whp and around 400ft/lbs at the wheels (on E85). And by swapping to bigger injectors, this same build can go another 100-150whp. Why all this money for the same power that I could get from a BMW I6 for 1/2 the money? Because it's different, a lot lighter, and I'm a huge Honda fanboy.

Nice results


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[digger]

I spent S54 swap money to build a 3.0 motor for my E36. It was for an autocross car where transitional power is everything. It had lightweight EVERYTHING in the motor, as well as an aluminum single Vanos block from a 97 Z3. In the end I ended up with this on 94 octane fuel with zero ethanol. I suppose I could have got a bit more torque and more HP if I had gone with E85 (or some blend of the 2).




Now I'm spending probably close to double what I spent the last time, but I'm expecting (not anticipating, EXPECTING, as it's been proven time and again with identical builds in Hondas) 525-550whp and around 400ft/lbs at the wheels (on E85). And by swapping to bigger injectors, this same build can go another 100-150whp. Why all this money for the same power that I could get from a BMW I6 for 1/2 the money? Because it's different, a lot lighter, and I'm a huge Honda fanboy.

What Honda makes 400ftlb at the wheels all motor ?

[pbonsalb]

One that is built and turbocharged and running E85.

[jakermac]

What Honda makes 400ftlb at the wheels all motor ?

One that is built and turbocharged and running E85.

Ya, I guess I could have been a little more explicit. 18-20psi from a twin scroll EFR7163 on a 2.0 I4 K20A2 Honda motor.

[digger]

Back onto all motor engines.

The reasons why the Honda’s can make big power is simply the cylinder flow numbers and building the engine to use those flow numbers (i.e approprtiate camshafts to suit the higher rpm, the reconfigured exhaust and intake runner size and lengths etc so making an engine combination not a random assortment of parts). There is a bigger honda crowd so more that do actual R&D as opposed to BMW crowd that do mostly bolt on mods which dont get anwhere near optimal results.

The underlying reason regarding the head is the S52 head port shape is inferior to what you find on a honda or other high performance 4V head. In comparison to a honda you can’t fit as big valves due the small bore limits which is a result smaller bore spacing and valve placement added to the fact that you can’t lift the valves high enough even if you were able to get a much much bigger valve in there.

A stock s52 head is like 240cfm and most aftermarket port jobs are likely ineffectual but a mildy ported Honda will be well into 300’s and 400+ on some aftermarket stuff that lifts like 0.650”. A s54 would be able to do low 300s ported right which is well below what a honda as it still has the same limtiations

[jakermac]

Here's the head flow for the various K series stock cylinder heads and a couple ported heads from a company called 4Piston Racing. The head on my motor is an RBC and it will be warmed over gently for the build.



I know Larry from Endyn is casting his own K series cylinder heads and he's surpassing the highest numbers on the chart. AND he's also made a mold for a reverse flow K series cylinder head with designs on doing a V8 with 2 of these heads. Can you say 4.8l V8 that'll rev to 9,500-10,000 and make 600hp without bating an eyelid?

[Rugbyfan]

I spent S54 swap money to build a 3.0 motor for my E36. It was for an autocross car where transitional power is everything. It had lightweight EVERYTHING in the motor, as well as an aluminum single Vanos block from a 97 Z3. In the end I ended up with this on 94 octane fuel with zero ethanol. I suppose I could have got a bit more torque and more HP if I had gone with E85 (or some blend of the 2).




Now I'm spending probably close to double what I spent the last time, but I'm expecting (not anticipating, EXPECTING, as it's been proven time and again with identical builds in Hondas) 525-550whp and around 400ft/lbs at the wheels (on E85). And by swapping to bigger injectors, this same build can go another 100-150whp. Why all this money for the same power that I could get from a BMW I6 for 1/2 the money? Because it's different, a lot lighter, and I'm a huge Honda fanboy.

If I may ask, what were the details of your 3.0 build? Was it OBD 1? While I understand that building an N/A S52 makes zero sense, I might head that way. I’ve always wanted to build an engine and I feel that I’m ready to give it a whirl. I’ve rebuilt a diff, done cam/head swaps, engine swaps etc, just never a short block. Is a 3.2 aluminum not possible due to cylinder wall thickness?

[jakermac]

If I may ask, what were the details of your 3.0 build? Was it OBD 1? While I understand that building an N/A S52 makes zero sense, I might head that way. I’ve always wanted to build an engine and I feel that I’m ready to give it a whirl. I’ve rebuilt a diff, done cam/head swaps, engine swaps etc, just never a short block. Is a 3.2 aluminum not possible due to cylinder wall thickness?

As you suggested, the only way to over bore the single Vanos much more than 84.5mm is to sleeve the block. Yes, the cylinder walls would get quite thin. They're pretty thin to begin with. I did 84.5mm.

Here's my build (from memory).

97 Z3 single Vanos aluminum block
S52/M54 crank - mine was lightened from 52lbs to 40lbs.
Molnar forged rods
Wiseco/Paul Burke Imagineering 11.5:1 compression custom made lightweight pistons
Mildly ported cylinder head with oversized valves
Metric Mechanic Rally grind cams
M50 intake manifold with Conforti 3.5" CAI
Bosch 800 3.5" MAF
24lb Bosch injectors
OBD1 tuning on 413 DME by Zack at 22RPD.com
Raceland shorty headers
Custom made 2-1 merge and full single 3" exhaust
UUC 8lb flywheel with M5 clutch
ATI crank damper
Baffled oil pan
Z3 oil pickup tube
Safety wired oil pump nut
Shimmed oil pump pressure relief for extra pressure
Custom catch can setup made by me

[GG///M3]

As you suggested, the only way to over bore the single Vanos much more than 84.5mm is to sleeve the block. Yes, the cylinder walls would get quite thin. They're pretty thin to begin with. I did 84.5mm.

Here's my build (from memory).

97 Z3 single Vanos aluminum block
S52/M54 crank - mine was lightened from 52lbs to 40lbs.
Molnar forged rods
Wiseco/Paul Burke Imagineering 11.5:1 compression custom made lightweight pistons
Mildly ported cylinder head with oversized valves
Metric Mechanic Rally grind cams
M50 intake manifold with Conforti 3.5" CAI
Bosch 800 3.5" MAF
24lb Bosch injectors
OBD1 tuning on 413 DME by Zack at 22RPD.com
Raceland shorty headers
Custom made 2-1 merge and full single 3" exhaust
UUC 8lb flywheel with M5 clutch
ATI crank damper
Baffled oil pan
Z3 oil pickup tube
Safety wired oil pump nut
Shimmed oil pump pressure relief for extra pressure
Custom catch can setup made by me

Paul Burke cams ?


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[jakermac]

Paul Burke cams ?

Je ne comprends pas.

Metric Mechanic Rally grind cams

[GG///M3]

Je ne comprends pas.

Ahh missed that.


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[joshhas99probs]

People will hate me but just k swap your e36.

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[digger]

Why swap in an engine and then need to mod the bejesus out of it ? Swap in something that works properly from the get go or that needs minor mods to be fast

[pbonsalb]

I assume the answer to that is lightness. For a few, the chase is worth the time, money and effort.

[blckstrm]

Good grief - these are full blown race motors. Because if they're not, they're making less than stock power. So they cost as much as full blown race motors, too. And surely have less than ideal manners around town.

Every race class I'm aware of that would allow a non-factory motor swap is pure power-to-weight. And I'm not aware of any that make all those allowances and then block a turbo.

Even still - the answer to that question is and will always be an LS.

And no need to tell everyone to LS swap their E36. That's what everyone already does because it actually makes sense.

[propcar]

People will hate me but just k swap your e36.

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Don't hate you. But it's the best way to ruin an E36 M3. Do it to a standard E36 and good luck. It'll probably cost $10-14k to get the power of an S54 and then you get to deal with all the fun part of having a shoehorned engine that has splices, who knows what adapted to make it work, and the many compromises that'll come with it.

I think that, often, people that end up doing crazy swaps like that enjoy their cars for a short time and then get tired of dealing with having to chase things to make it work instead of driving it. And to some people, that is what they enjoy, the build instead of the drive - fair enough. But, it's good to distinguish the end goal and be realistic of what will be given up.

[pbonsalb]

Where did the OP go? He started this great discussion and then left.

[GG///M3]

Where did the OP go? He started this great discussion and then left.

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[Rugbyfan]

Can anyone recommend a shop in NC for machine work (head and block)? And I know people recommend replacing lifters, but do people replace the cam shelves as well? What’s the deal with solid lifters? Needed? It seems like to get the clearances you have to machine the solid lifters, how would you do adjust the lifters after putting some miles on the engine? Machine another set of lifters?

[nick325xit 5spd]

Can anyone recommend a shop in NC for machine work (head and block)? And I know people recommend replacing lifters, but do people replace the cam shelves as well? What’s the deal with solid lifters? Needed? It seems like to get the clearances you have to machine the solid lifters, how would you do adjust the lifters after putting some miles on the engine? Machine another set of lifters?

Cars that are designed for solid lifters have either shims or eccentrics. I assume that a retrofit solid lifter set would use shims.

You'll be so much happier if you just sell that S52 swap and put in an S54, though.

[Rugbyfan]

Cars that are designed for solid lifters have either shims or eccentrics. I assume that a retrofit solid lifter set would use shims.

You'll be so much happier if you just sell that S52 swap and put in an S54, though.

Ahh ok. That makes sense. Any insight to replacing the cam shelves on a rebuild? Necessary?

And I hear you on the s54 but building an engine has been on the bucket list for some time. While I think overall the costs would be roughly equal (s54 with prep work, new clutch/fly 6 speed, new diff etc)I would take satisfaction in doing a motor build from start to finish. I fully admit that it doesn’t make any economic sense and it will be slower. I sometimes make illogical choices.

[blckstrm]

Ahh ok. That makes sense. Any insight to replacing the cam shelves on a rebuild? Necessary?

And I hear you on the s54 but building an engine has been on the bucket list for some time. While I think overall the costs would be roughly equal (s54 with prep work, new clutch/fly 6 speed, new diff etc)I would take satisfaction in doing a motor build from start to finish. I fully admit that it doesn’t make any economic sense and it will be slower. I sometimes make illogical choices.

You'll have to look at them, or at least mention it when you take the head to the machine shop. It's not very common, but I'm sure the machine shop will be able to tell you if need new ones. I'd doubt it.

As for solid lifters ... there is a LOT of information out there on these. Both the Euro motors (S50B30 and S50B32) have solid lifters, and the S54 has them as well. So there is a LOT of discussion about the benefits and drawbacks, as well as plenty of DIY videos showing how to do this on an E46 M3.

There are also plenty of places offering solid lifter conversions for this motor. VAC has a kit for about $1100 - and there are probably lots of cheaper places to get something similar.

Anyway, adjusting them is pretty simple - you buy the shim kit, and you follow the instructions. But if you're not trying to rev past 8k, there's no point.

And once you cross that bridge, we get back to the "why don't you just build an S54" question again.

[Rugbyfan]

You'll have to look at them, or at least mention it when you take the head to the machine shop. It's not very common, but I'm sure the machine shop will be able to tell you if need new ones. I'd doubt it.

As for solid lifters ... there is a LOT of information out there on these. Both the Euro motors (S50B30 and S50B32) have solid lifters, and the S54 has them as well. So there is a LOT of discussion about the benefits and drawbacks, as well as plenty of DIY videos showing how to do this on an E46 M3.

There are also plenty of places offering solid lifter conversions for this motor. VAC has a kit for about $1100 - and there are probably lots of cheaper places to get something similar.

Anyway, adjusting them is pretty simple - you buy the shim kit, and you follow the instructions. But if you're not trying to rev past 8k, there's no point.

And once you cross that bridge, we get back to the "why don't you just build an S54" question again.

Yeah I won’t be going that high (Crank harmonics and all that). This is all long term planning (engine on my stand in garage for the winter). When I installed my riot racing cams I tediously disassembled and cleaned each lifter. It was extremely pointless.

[pbonsalb]

No need for solid lifters with riot racing cams. Keep it simple. The hydraulic lifters should be fine to 7500-8000, not that you are likely to rev that high. If high rpm with 3.2L is your goal, use the S54.

CES Motorsports in Monroe NC can have a very extreme head built if you want to spend the money. Dual valve springs, +1mm valves, extreme porting. You supply the head core and cams and trays and lifters. I run one. A guy who does NASCAR work does them for CES so availability may depend on the time of year. Somewhere here there is a thread on these heads

[Rugbyfan]

No need for solid lifters with riot racing cams. Keep it simple. The hydraulic lifters should be fine to 7500-8000, not that you are likely to rev that high. If high rpm with 3.2L is your goal, use the S54.

CES Motorsports in Monroe NC can have a very extreme head built if you want to spend the money. Dual valve springs, +1mm valves, extreme porting. You supply the head core and cams and trays and lifters. I run one. A guy who does NASCAR work does them for CES so availability may depend on the time of year. Somewhere here there is a thread on these heads

Sorry I was scatterbrained when I wrote that. I currently have the riots (for 2 years) and no issues with my current ~70k mile lifters. In the next 12-18 months I’d like to do an N/A build (I know it’s absurd). For cams I would most likely go with the more aggressive CAT cams. But since I’d be crank harmonic limited, there would be no need for solid lifters if I stay with say a 7500rpm rev limit, correct?

Good info about CES. They’re not too far from me.