Why is Getting All Motor HP So Hard?

[nick325xit 5spd]

Call me crazy but i much prefer the way the s52 revs and delivers power, the s54 has always felt very blocky to me, leas emotional if that makes any sense.

Evolve and Epic tunes totally change the character of the S54.

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It’s expensive to build an S54. A used one might be comparable to building an S52, but when you have to maintain and repair the S54 you will spend more. Valves need periodic adjustment, vanos has more expensive issues. I fully built an S52. Have about $4k in the bottom end and about $4500 in the top end. Plus the turbo system, driveshaft, transmission, clutch, differential, axles.... it would have cost more if I did all this to an S54.

Yes, if you are doing a turbo, the S54 gets expensive. However, if you want N/A, a stock S54 will kick the crap out of a built S52.

[nick325xit 5spd]

What exactly did you have priced out? 10k seems high lol


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Dude, $10k is basically a stock refresh with mild head work. Have you ever priced out getting an engine rebuilt? Back when Stickley was doing engine builds, people were paying $15-20k for a street-plus rebuild. A friend of mine spent $17k on an S50US, just for reference. Edit: Metric Mechanic is currently pricing a "295hp to 315hp" S52 build at $14,995. I should note that the feedback that I've seen is that MM engine builds don't make claimed power. So that's another today cost comparable. A stock S54 with with a catted exhaust will easily put 300hp down at the WHEELS. MM is claiming ~300hp at the CRANK for their $15k motor.

My point is that any attempt to get near S54 power with an S52 is going to require pulling the engine and cracking it open. That basically starts at $10k. Realistically, you're probably talking about $20k.

That makes no sense when you can drop in a stock S54, get more power, save a whole bunch of money, AND have an easy way to replace the motor if / when you blow it up.

[propcar]

Isn't the S54 better equipped since it has a better oil pan and oil pump system? That's something else you'd have to add to S52 to protect it's longevity.

[pbonsalb]

People only have issues with oiling on track cars. Other than that the only concern is the oil pickup tube and the oil pump nut, both of which are cheap to fix if you are capable of removing your oil pan. S54 pumps can have shaft issues just like S52 pumps and upgraded shafts are available for both. I have been running a stock S52 oil pump for 15 years of forced induction work. I did baffle the pan years ago but don’t think I needed to for my street driving. I do have a VAC modified S54 pump waiting to go in along with an S54 pan, but again, I don’t need these parts.

[Laminar]

Except there is something wrong with that dyno because a naturally aspirated 3.2L that makes 310 rwhp is not going to make 287 lbs rwtq. I doubt a naturally aspirated S52 has ever made anywhere close to 287 lbs rwtq.

Yeah this is setting off alarm bells in my head. Torque per unit of displacement is a great measure of an engine's efficiency in making power. If you use horsepower/displacement, all you have to do is rev to the moon and your number looks good. To get a good torque/ci figure everything has to gel together extremely well.

The S54 makes 1.36 lb-ft/ci.

The Coyote in the new Mach 1 makes 1.37 lb-ft/ci.

The 6.2 in the new Corvette makes 1.24 lb-ft/ci.

The 393 in the Challenger makes 1.27 lb-ft/ci.

The 3.6 in the 997 GT3 RS makes 1.36 lb-ft/ci.

The current 911 GT3 RS makes 1.42 lb-ft/ci.

2014 NASCAR cup engines made 1.51 lb-ft/ci.

The 2006 FIA F1 engines made 1.46 lb-ft/ci.

If an S52 was making 287 rwtq, assuming a suuuuper conservative 10% drivetrain loss at peak torque, that'd be 319 crank torque.

That'd put it at 1.66 lb-ft/ci. Whoever engineered that engine would have every F1 and NASCAR engine builder smashing down their door to get their secrets. That's all-out mega-extreme leaded-gas 15:1 compression nightmare level engineering.

I'd be really interested in seeing what that dyno's RPM source was configured for. The presence of the "gear ratio" field makes me suspicious - the Dynojet can use gear ratio to estimate engine RPM when you can't get a physical RPM pickup. This would be used when the dyno has an inductive pickup designed to clamp onto a spark plug wire, but your engine uses COP ignition.

Mess up that gear ratio due to wrong tire size, rear end, or trans gear, and your RPM will be way off. Since the inertial Dynojet measures horsepower and uses RPM to back-calculate torque, if your RPM reading is off, your calculated torque value will also be off.

[GG///M3]

Dude, $10k is basically a stock refresh with mild head work. Have you ever priced out getting an engine rebuilt? Back when Stickley was doing engine builds, people were paying $15-20k for a street-plus rebuild. A friend of mine spent $17k on an S50US, just for reference. Edit: Metric Mechanic is currently pricing a "295hp to 315hp" S52 build at $14,995. I should note that the feedback that I've seen is that MM engine builds don't make claimed power. So that's another today cost comparable. A stock S54 with with a catted exhaust will easily put 300hp down at the WHEELS. MM is claiming ~300hp at the CRANK for their $15k motor.

My point is that any attempt to get near S54 power with an S52 is going to require pulling the engine and cracking it open. That basically starts at $10k. Realistically, you're probably talking about $20k.

That makes no sense when you can drop in a stock S54, get more power, save a whole bunch of money, AND have an easy way to replace the motor if / when you blow it up.

I had my s50 bottom end rebuilt for around 3,500 with eagle rods, and wiesco pistons


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[pbonsalb]

Building a bottom end won’t really add any power over stock until you get past the limits of stock - which are north of 500 lbs rwtq and 500 rwhp.

You will get some minimal gain from using lighter rods and pistons. You will get some minimal gain from higher compression. And you might make the motor better able to handle higher rpm, though stock can do 7200 no problem.

The power gains come from building the top end — more aggressive cams and port work, and from bolt on mods such as headers, intake, midpipe, rear exhaust, tune. It is essentially through the those mods that you can add 50+ rwhp to an S52.

[Bimmerman535i]

Even after selling off my S50, my S54 swap was over $10k. How much, I don't actually want to know-- I stopped counting. That said, I went overboard on the swap.

However, it was absolutely the right call to S54 instead of build S50.

My all-but-cams S50 did 235whp. 3" catless exhaust, turner shorties, 3.5" intake, injectors, tune, all the shiny. 235whp. Smelled like ass and made more noise than power. Good sounds though. There was zero way to get more power without expensive cams and worse street manners, and it already didn't pass emissions.

My S54, entirely bone stock with bone stock CA compliant garbage OE tune and headers, made 290whp. Passes emissions. Doesn't stink.

Headers, exhaust, intake, and tune, and I'm at ~330whp, catted, quiet, and fast. Add cams and should be in the 350-360whp range, per comparable cars.

The S52 and S50 are great engines, but modifying them for NA power is not a good way to spend money IMO. (nor is an S54 swap tbh). If you're not tracking the car heavily, competitively, just do FI and call it a day. Or, LS3.

[nick325xit 5spd]

I had my s50 bottom end rebuilt for around 3,500 with eagle rods, and wiesco pistons


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ok? now rebuild the head and add some upgrades and you're at $10k. And you're not even close to S54 power.

[pbonsalb]

265 rwhp is no problem for a stock block S52 with all the bolt ons including cams, with a still very responsive bottom end, which is very close to stock S54 power. How much it costs to buy the parts depends on the deals you get but you could probably do it for the price of a used S54 if you were smart and patient.

If you want more, I agree it is probably not worthwhile and that the S54 starts to make more sense. Plus if you have a tired 200k mile S52 and can get a 100k mile S54 for $3-4K, you start off with a younger motor. And of course you can mod the S54. The S52 is not going to rev to 8000+ to make the power the S54 can make. If you can’t increase displacement, you must increase rpm to make more power once bolt ons are exhausted.

[GG///M3]

265 rwhp is no problem for a stock block S52 with all the bolt ons including cams, with a still very responsive bottom end, which is very close to stock S54 power. How much it costs to buy the parts depends on the deals you get but you could probably do it for the price of a used S54 if you were smart and patient.

If you want more, I agree it is probably not worthwhile and that the S54 starts to make more sense. Plus if you have a tired 200k mile S52 and can get a 100k mile S54 for $3-4K, you start off with a younger motor. And of course you can mod the S54. The S52 is not going to rev to 8000+ to make the power the S54 can make. If you can’t increase displacement, you must increase rpm to make more power once bolt ons are exhausted.

Plenty have made more


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[pbonsalb]

That is why I wrote no problem. Easy, repeatable, articles with dynos. More is much less common.

[GG///M3]

That is why I wrote no problem. Easy, repeatable, articles with dynos. More is much less common.

Hi 5


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[RickyN F355]

can we agree a properly built s52 can produce 320 crank? how much hp are we saying a properly built s54 will make at the crank>

[nick325xit 5spd]

265 rwhp is no problem for a stock block S52 with all the bolt ons including cams, with a still very responsive bottom end, which is very close to stock S54 power. How much it costs to buy the parts depends on the deals you get but you could probably do it for the price of a used S54 if you were smart and patient.

If you want more, I agree it is probably not worthwhile and that the S54 starts to make more sense. Plus if you have a tired 200k mile S52 and can get a 100k mile S54 for $3-4K, you start off with a younger motor. And of course you can mod the S54. The S52 is not going to rev to 8000+ to make the power the S54 can make. If you can’t increase displacement, you must increase rpm to make more power once bolt ons are exhausted.

A 100% stock internal S54 will make 300whp+ with a streetable catted exhaust. (Or a stock E46 M3 euro exhaust.) The only thing you need on top of that exhaust is a tune. Making an S52 get close to the power that a stock tune US E46 M3 puts down will cost a large fraction of the cost of an S54 swap.

I'm saying that anyone spending more than a couple grand modding an S50/S52 for NA power is going to end up unsatisfied. I've watched people do that over and over again. It was never good enough.

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Plenty have made more


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Yeah, and I was around in BMWCCA CR in the heyday of stock block S50US/S52 engines making that power. They blew up all the freaking time.

[nick325xit 5spd]

can we agree a properly built s52 can produce 320 crank? how much hp are we saying a properly built s54 will make at the crank>

North of 400 at the crank for a 100% bolt ons S54. That's not even a built motor.

[GG///M3]

A 100% stock internal S54 will make 300whp+ with a streetable catted exhaust. (Or a stock E46 M3 euro exhaust.) The only thing you need on top of that exhaust is a tune. Making an S52 get close to the power that a stock tune US E46 M3 puts down will cost a large fraction of the cost of an S54 swap.

I'm saying that anyone spending more than a couple grand modding an S50/S52 for NA power is going to end up unsatisfied. I've watched people do that over and over again. It was never good enough.

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Yeah, and I was around in BMWCCA CR in the heyday of stock block S50US/S52 engines making that power. They blew up all the freaking time.

The owner of the s52 that made 310whp and 287wtq has been doing track days, and street driving for I believe that last 4 years.

A friend of mine with an s52 (stock bottom end) and sunbelt cams along with upgraded valve springs (proper exhaust mods ) track driven 28xwhp.

Not every s52/s50 is going to blow up because it’s making over 260/270whp.

I’ve had an s54 swapped e36 making 346whp/256wtq, and I loved it . It wasn’t the run of the mill swap. Basically all the bolt on mods.


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[ScotcH]

The owner of the s52 that made 310whp and 287wtq has been doing track days, and street driving for I believe that last 4 years.

A friend of mine with an s52 (stock bottom end) and sunbelt cams along with upgraded valve springs (proper exhaust mods ) track driven 28xwhp.

Not every s52/s50 is going to blow up because it’s making over 260/270whp.

I’ve had an s54 swapped e36 making 346whp/256wtq, and I loved it . It wasn’t the run of the mill swap. Basically all the bolt on mods.


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Yeah, our s54 in the e36 race car makes 345/249 rw with Shrick cams and 100$ ebay headers. It built to run 12 hr enduros

[nick325xit 5spd]

The owner of the s52 that made 310whp and 287wtq has been doing track days, and street driving for I believe that last 4 years.

A friend of mine with an s52 (stock bottom end) and sunbelt cams along with upgraded valve springs (proper exhaust mods ) track driven 28xwhp.

Not every s52/s50 is going to blow up because it’s making over 260/270whp.

I’ve had an s54 swapped e36 making 346whp/256wtq, and I loved it . It wasn’t the run of the mill swap. Basically all the bolt on mods.


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All of those S52s have thousands of dollars in upgrade money in them that could have gone towards an S54 swap instead. And as you note, they are making significantly less power. Even the supposedly 310whp one (that no one believes the dyno from) still makes less than what an S54 would.

[GG///M3]

All of those S52s have thousands of dollars in upgrade money in them that could have gone towards an S54 swap instead. And as you note, they are making significantly less power. Even the supposedly 310whp one (that no one believes the dyno from) still makes less than what an S54 would.

Yes it makes less, but that tq looks delicious.


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[pbonsalb]

That torque isn’t real. Sorry.

[GG///M3]

Yeah, our s54 in the e36 race car makes 345/249 rw with Shrick cams and 100$ ebay headers. It built to run 12 hr enduros

I used the same headers along with e46 m3 modded section on 1/2 and I UUC Corsa twin silencer muffler only.


https://youtu.be/m_3T0saQX-I


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[digger]

can we agree a properly built s52 can produce 320 crank? how much hp are we saying a properly built s54 will make at the crank>

Depends what you’re building the engine for. You’d be able to get 400 flywheel from the s52 if you tried properly and knew what you were doing, it wouldn’t be a DD though.
the s54 has a better port design, valvetrain etc plus is a higher starting point and some undelying design features that mean for the same effort it'll make more power and be more reliable at the rpm required to make big power.

A proper head build is expensive when you add it all up

[jakermac]

I spent S54 swap money to build a 3.0 motor for my E36. It was for an autocross car where transitional power is everything. It had lightweight EVERYTHING in the motor, as well as an aluminum single Vanos block from a 97 Z3. In the end I ended up with this on 94 octane fuel with zero ethanol. I suppose I could have got a bit more torque and more HP if I had gone with E85 (or some blend of the 2).




Now I'm spending probably close to double what I spent the last time, but I'm expecting (not anticipating, EXPECTING, as it's been proven time and again with identical builds in Hondas) 525-550whp and around 400ft/lbs at the wheels (on E85). And by swapping to bigger injectors, this same build can go another 100-150whp. Why all this money for the same power that I could get from a BMW I6 for 1/2 the money? Because it's different, a lot lighter, and I'm a huge Honda fanboy.

[pbonsalb]

All this complication and money makes me think maybe the LSx aluminum block aluminum head is the way to go for all motor power.