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Thread: Why is Getting All Motor HP So Hard?

  1. #1
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    Why is Getting All Motor HP So Hard?

    Why is it so hard compared to some other cars to make an S52 build that's high revving, high HP? Before my M3 I owned a TSX with a K24, and all motor builds with those could get you 300, 400, even 500hp out of a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder. I would have assumed it'd be easier to make power with a sturdy 3.2L inline 6, but I guess I was wrong. Why is that?
    Thanks in advance

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    It's plenty easy to get well over 500hp with enough boost. More or less the same as any other car including your TSX.

    As for high revving, if you want sustained revs much over 7000 you're going to need to do some engine work but it can be done. That said, there aren't a ton of motors out there which rev over 8000 rpm in sub-$100K cars. The Honda S2000 and E46/E90 M3's are the only ones that come to mind quickly.
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    oh, i know it's easy to make power with boost, i was talking about all motor (naturally aspirated) power. i think saying all motor instead of NA is mostly just a honda community thing lol my bad

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfinbimmerboy View Post
    oh, i know it's easy to make power with boost, i was talking about all motor (naturally aspirated) power. i think saying all motor instead of NA is mostly just a honda community thing lol my bad
    500hp out of a 2.4L NA. How many cubic $ does that run? Link to build?

    Best we've seen personally (not our engine) has been around 360 rwhp out of a 3.0L M54 on ELF super fuel, full race spec. That's around 430 crank. I'm sure the same build out of a 3.2L iron could push that closer to 500 crank, but our series was limited to 3l at the time.

    I've seen 420 rwhp out of e46 M3 engines, so that's around 500 crank. Again full race build, race fuel, and around $15k +
    Last edited by ScotcH; 07-20-2020 at 09:35 PM.
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    http://www.4pistonracing.com/engine/...cks?partsfor=7 here's a link to fully built k24s, the top long block looks like 18k for one capable of 500+. It seems like with engines like the k24, you can get about +30 hp with just cams (and more bang for your buck in general with things like bolt ons), while with S52s an intake, HFM, MAF, and cams will net you only about 20hp
    What kind of mods are necessary for significantly increasing power with an NA BMW straight 6?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfinbimmerboy View Post
    http://www.4pistonracing.com/engine/...cks?partsfor=7 here's a link to fully built k24s, the top long block looks like 18k for one capable of 500+. It seems like with engines like the k24, you can get about +30 hp with just cams (and more bang for your buck in general with things like bolt ons), while with S52s an intake, HFM, MAF, and cams will net you only about 20hp
    What kind of mods are necessary for significantly increasing power with an NA BMW straight 6?
    That's a race motor that says it needs to be rebuilt after 15 races. I'm not aware of anyone building throwaway S52s.

    Even then you can't compare apples to apples. The race motors for these cars "only" made 400 hp, but were built to run for 24 hours. I guess it's just a different philosophy.

    I also think you're being a bit biased. Only 20 hp for an intake, MAF, and cams? I think that's being pretty conservative.

    -Josh
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    The answer is that the S52 is a bad platform to build because it doesn't rev due to bad crank harmonics. And if you're at the break it down and build the motor point, no one wants to spend a lot of money building a motor that is so clearly inferior to either the S50B32 (expensive, but correct), or the S54 (cheap, ubiquitous).

    If you want all motor power, the budget solution is put in an S54. Stock S54s can easily put down 300whp in street trim. The CARB legal swap path is also pretty well defined, since you're in CA. (Note that CARB legality will cost you some power since you're stuck with the shitty US headers.) In race trim, a stock S54 can get close to 400hp at the crank. And a stock internal S54 will rev to 9,000.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    That's a race motor that says it needs to be rebuilt after 15 races.
    And I'm pretty sure that drag races ... so like 15 minutes of runtime, lol.
    Check out the 8legs Racing page: https://www.facebook.com/8legsRacing/


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    Formula for performance.

    $$$ = hp

    BMW $$$ x 10 = hp
    See ya later,

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    One member is turbocharging a built Honda 4 cylinder to put in his lightened E36 to save weight. He expects up to 500 rwhp with boost. I understand the benefit of lightness.

    As for the all motor Honda making 500 hp (425 rwhp) I am not sure a 16:1 compression wild cam 9000 rpm 2.4L on race gas is the motor I would want in my street car. And it costs about $15k. I could have 800 hp (700 rwhp) on 93 pump plus meth for $15k with a turbo BMW S52 and it would drive great on the street and have decent low end torque and off boost power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    One member is turbocharging a built Honda 4 cylinder to put in his lightened E36 to save weight. He expects up to 500 rwhp with boost. I understand the benefit of lightness.

    As for the all motor Honda making 500 hp (425 rwhp) I am not sure a 16:1 compression wild cam 9000 rpm 2.4L on race gas is the motor I would want in my street car. And it costs about $15k. I could have 800 hp (700 rwhp) on 93 pump plus meth for $15k with a turbo BMW S52 and it would drive great on the street and have decent low end torque and off boost power.
    Blipp


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    You could go the cheap way and do what dynojet does. Tweak the formulas for an extra 20%.
    See ya later,

    tony
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Only 20 hp for an intake, MAF, and cams? I think that's being pretty conservative.
    Agreed. More like double that if it's done right. But, still $$$. So, not hard, just expensive.
    Last edited by h82crash; 07-22-2020 at 04:11 PM.
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    Yup, that's my eventual goal for my car. Take it as far as I can reasonably go NA without fully redoing the engine and spending $10K or anything like that. Cams, headers, all the intake stuff, MAF/injectors, exhaust, maybe some head work, and a good tune. And yeah, from what I've seen at least a 15-20% gain in hp (plus some torque) is a reasonable expectation.
    Last edited by TostitoBandito; 07-22-2020 at 05:24 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by blckstrm
    Only 20 hp for an intake, MAF, and cams? I think that's being pretty conservative.

    Quote Originally Posted by h82crash View Post
    Agreed. More like double that if it's done right. But, still $$$. So, not hard, just expensive.
    Not a chance.
    But if this is the general and overall belief then I've got some magic beans, a bridge and a special present from Santa Claus I'd like to sell.

    And, oh yeah, they'll all be delivered by the Playmate of the Month, at midnight, on a Wednesday night.

    ps: I'm sure it's never done, but just tweak the dyno formulas to get your money's worth.
    Last edited by tjm3; 07-22-2020 at 05:44 PM.
    See ya later,

    tony
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    https://motoiq.com/tested-s52-vs-m50...-bmw-e36-m3/6/

    Good article from a while back. They ran stock and a variety of Conforti-based configs all on the same dyno with the same car:

    Stock - 202 rwhp
    M50 manifold - 211 rwhp (and some torque loss)
    M50/MAF/injectors/CAI - 226 rwhp
    M50/MAF/injectors/CAI/cams - 235 rwhp

    So that's a 16% power gain at the wheels, and this doesn't include exhaust, headers, cat delete, a better/custom tune, pulleys, or any sort of engine work aside from cams. They did a followup article where they added a Borla catback exhaust (but retained the cats) and brought the total to 243 rwhp, so another 6-7hp more. With the exhaust, that's over a 20% hp gain (41 hp).

    Anyways, this is one sample but laid out in a very methodical manner, and is in line with what I've seen from various owner's dynos. With all the bolt-ons and a good tune 250+hp at the wheels is absolutely achievable, with more available if you want to get rid of the cats, use more aggressive cams, do engine work, etc... That's in the realm of 300hp at the crank. Sure at that point maybe you could've sold your E36 and bought an E46 M3 with the money you spent, but what fun would that be? Plus, E36's look better.
    Last edited by TostitoBandito; 07-22-2020 at 06:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TostitoBandito View Post
    https://motoiq.com/tested-s52-vs-m50...-bmw-e36-m3/6/

    Good article from a while back. They ran stock and a variety of Conforti-based configs all on the same dyno with the same car:

    Stock - 202 rwhp
    M50 manifold - 211 rwhp (and some torque loss)
    M50/MAF/injectors/CAI - 226 rwhp
    M50/MAF/injectors/CAI/cams - 235 rwhp

    So that's a 16% power gain at the wheels, and this doesn't include exhaust, headers, cat delete, a better/custom tune, pulleys, or any sort of engine work aside from cams. They did a followup article where they added a Borla catback exhaust (but retained the cats) and brought the total to 243 rwhp, so another 6-7hp more. With the exhaust, that's over a 20% hp gain (41 hp).

    Anyways, this is one sample but laid out in a very methodical manner, and is in line with what I've seen from various owner's dynos. With all the bolt-ons and a good tune 250+hp at the wheels is absolutely achievable, with more available if you want to get rid of the cats, use more aggressive cams, do engine work, etc... That's in the realm of 300hp at the crank. Sure at that point maybe you could've sold your E36 and bought an E46 M3 with the money you spent, but what fun would that be? Plus, E36's look better.
    And if you REALLY do it right you can get 4 doors for the price of 2! Can't do THAT with an E46 M3!

    -Josh
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    And if you REALLY do it right you can get 4 doors for the price of 2! Can't do THAT with an E46 M3!
    Correct. Also in a e46 m3 you also get the rear subframe/trunk floor made out of tin/cardboard.

    On another note here is the dyno sheet for my last e36 m3 which was a 95 with exhaust/intake mods.




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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    The E36 M3 trunk is also cardboard. The E90M3 trunk floor is real.
    The e36 didn’t have the same issues the e46 in that area


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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjm3 View Post
    Originally Posted by blckstrm
    Only 20 hp for an intake, MAF, and cams? I think that's being pretty conservative.



    Not a chance.
    But if this is the general and overall belief then I've got some magic beans, a bridge and a special present from Santa Claus I'd like to sell.

    And, oh yeah, they'll all be delivered by the Playmate of the Month, at midnight, on a Wednesday night.

    ps: I'm sure it's never done, but just tweak the dyno formulas to get your money's worth.
    Sounds like you got bent over at some point. Sorry about that. And pardon me, I was also thinking injectors and tune, in addition. You don't think $2000 in parts and even more in labor can get this engine to 230 crank?

    edit: Oops, in the M3 forum. 280 crank HP might be a stretch.
    Last edited by h82crash; 07-22-2020 at 10:08 PM.
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  24. #24
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    The E36 M3 trunk is also cardboard. The E90M3 trunk floor is real.
    Also, if your DD E90 M3 is totaled, you'll actually get enough from the insurance company that you can replace the car. If your DD E36 M3 gets totaled, all you get is the toy from a cracker jack box. Not a cracker jack box - just the toy.

    -Josh
    1998 M3/4/5 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. 250k and getting better every day.

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