HR spring camber values

[OMBGodfather]

Hey there. I have a 97 m3 sedan on HR springs and bilstein b8s. All bushings/control arms/tie rods have been replaced. I have a difference in front camber of about 1.3 degrees, driver side having about -2.5 and passenger about -1.2 does anyone have good camber numbers with this setup so I can determine which side has a problem? Is this going to be a bent knuckle?
Thanks

[bluptgm3]

Did both front springs settle into position properly on spring perches?

What is you ride height? Equal both sides? I know that Bentley manual indicates to measure from wheel rim ledge closest to ground-to-wheel arch, however measuring from wheel center-to-wheel arch gives a better car to car comparative number eliminating differences in (aftermarket) wheels.



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[blckstrm]

-1.3 is normal. If check to see if your driver shock mounts is rotated. Arrow should point forward.

[OMBGodfather]

Ride height is equal on both sides, sitting on stock contours with new stock size tires. Strut hats are on correctly. These are the m3 offset hats, hard to mix up. With the car on jackstands and wheels off I still have a difference in angle of about 1.5°. If the -1.3 is normalish I'm looking at the driver side as being wrong. Has anyone ever had a knuckle bend? I know cast parts usually break before bending.

[bluptgm3]

I think the King Pins are forged.
The 1996+M3 Guide Supports (BMW speak) or strut mounts are offset outboard.
I have also seen that new BMW KP are NLA.

How are your FLCA Bushings? Are they Centered or Offset?


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[pbonsalb]

Maybe the car was in an accident and one side is a little bent.

[OMBGodfather]

Control arm bushings are new and centered.

From what I've gathered on this car (relatively new to me) is that it was in an accident on the rear passenger side (door is from another car and rear quarter doesn't match driver side).

Update: I found my alignment paperwork and stand corrected. Driver side is -3.4 degrees and passenger is -1.5 so it is worse than i originally thought.

[nick325xit 5spd]

Given that the strut hats are installed correctly, you either have a bent strut or a bent kingpin or both.

[bluptgm3]

Given that the strut hats are installed correctly, you either have a bent strut or a bent kingpin or both.

Or the frame is tweeted.....Especially, if the front fender to front door gap and front fender to hood gaps are not uniform and equivalent.


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[nick325xit 5spd]

Yes. Given that we know that the car was hit, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to confirm that the strut towers are roughly in the correct location. Given the magnitude of the delta, a tape measure from a strut nut to the fender should be sufficient to confirm that.

[OMBGodfather]

Given that the strut hats are installed correctly, you either have a bent strut or a bent kingpin or both.

IMG_20200713_174232006.jpg

Doesn't look bent to me. Looks same as other side. So I guess it's down to the kingpin/spindle.

[bluptgm3]

How about the shock shaft itself?


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[nick325xit 5spd]

IMG_20200713_174232006.jpg

Doesn't look bent to me. Looks same as other side. So I guess it's down to the kingpin/spindle.

Have you measured the strut tower? And also, a bent strut usually isn't visible in the tube.

[pbonsalb]

Or a bent front frame rail horn. You can see below it fits onto the main framerail right under the strut, where the subframe mounts. Does not take much to push things over a degree.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E36-Fro...pid=2203563832

[NeilM]

-1.3 is normal.

A side-to-side difference of 1.3˚ isn't normal (i.e. to spec), but on cars of this age it isn't uncommon either.

@OP: Unless you can find anything obviously bent, you might want to your effort on shimming the strut to kingpin mounting on the low camber side to equal the other. (You can only shim up in negative camber, not down.) The resulting -2.5˚ would be a bit more than most people would choose for street use, but it's not unworkable. Reducing front toe-in a bit would then help control any excess tire wear.

Neil

[bluptgm3]

Unless you can find anything obviously bent, you might want to your effort on shimming the strut to kingpin mounting on the low camber side to equal the other.

Be aware that this comes at the cost of having to run a spacer (and longer lug bolts) on the front wheels to gain the necessary tire-to-strut clearance, especially on 1996+M3.


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[blckstrm]

A side-to-side difference of 1.3˚ isn't normal (i.e. to spec), but on cars of this age it isn't uncommon either.

@OP: Unless you can find anything obviously bent, you might want to your effort on shimming the strut to kingpin mounting on the low camber side to equal the other. (You can only shim up in negative camber, not down.) The resulting -2.5˚ would be a bit more than most people would choose for street use, but it's not unworkable. Reducing front toe-in a bit would then help control any excess tire wear.

Neil

I didn't say the difference was normal. I said -1.3 was normal, meaning -1.2 on the passenger side was close enough to normal. I then went on to say "check to see if your driver shock mount is rotated."

Given most of us no longer run stock camber on purpose, no one seems to remember what normal is. Most sources I checked say -1.3, some said -1.4.

Either way, one side looks more or less correct for a completely stock car, so it's just the one side - the passenger side - where there's an issue.

While I'd spend a little time trying to figure out what's going on, the fact is that the higher (-2.5) passenger side is more in the ideal range. I'd think about a shim, but only if OP is running a stock wheel / tire. I have square 17x9 et30 Arc-8s and I would rub on the strut when cornering (on the inside wheel) when I tried to run a shim.

But if this was mine I'd be trying to match the -2.5 he's getting from the passenger side on the driver's side. I swapped mounts and much prefer running more camber than when things were at the factory setting.

[pbonsalb]

You can only shim up in negative camber, not down.

You can shim down a little. BMW sells “crash bolts” for the upper horizontal mount. They are not the eccentric bolts I expected (Like are sold for other cars, some of which might fit our cars). Instead, they are just skinnier bolts - maybe M12 instead of M14 or M10 instead of M12 (I cannot recall). If you are concerned about movement, meaning the skinny bolt slipping inwards, you can put a shim behind it.

This is not going to take away a degree. Maybe half that.

I actually have excess negative camber on both sides with one worse than the other. My car was in 2 minor front side accidents in 1999 and obviously not fixed perfectly. I can’t get below about 2.5 negative and with slight lowering and wider wheels and tires, get excessive inner tire wear. I am toying with the idea of swapping my strut mounts or putting them in backwards (I have Vorshlag camber plates) as an experiment.

[blckstrm]

You can shim down a little. BMW sells “crash bolts” for the upper horizontal mount. They are not the eccentric bolts I expected (Like are sold for other cars, some of which might fit our cars). Instead, they are just skinnier bolts - maybe M12 instead of M14 or M10 instead of M12 (I cannot recall). If you are concerned about movement, meaning the skinny bolt slipping inwards, you can put a shim behind it.

This is not going to take away a degree. Maybe half that.

I actually have excess negative camber on both sides with one worse than the other. My car was in 2 minor front side accidents in 1999 and obviously not fixed perfectly. I can’t get below about 2.5 negative and with slight lowering and wider wheels and tires, get excessive inner tire wear. I am toying with the idea of swapping my strut mounts or putting them in backwards (I have Vorshlag camber plates) as an experiment.

I have a friend who installed E46 M3 FCAs to gain a ton of front track, and he did this (swapped his camber plates) to try to get back to a reasonable amount of negative camber. It worked pretty well, but he's still pretty high (which makes sense given how much wider the E46 M3 arms are). I assume for a normal car that just has abnormally high camber this would work great.

[OMBGodfather]

Sort of an update. Switched out front knuckle with no change. Compared another bilstein b8 strut with no visible or measurable difference.