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Thread: 1999 M3 starts running hot at odd intervals with and without A/C.

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Someone just resurrected an old thread of mine where I did my electric fan install into the factory shroud, and I made some observations on temperature there.

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...0#post30515140

    Are you monitoring your temps via OBD? You can get a cheap bluetooth transmitter and there are apps for both Apple and Android.

    What was ambient when you did your test?

    Also, what does your ducting look like? If the air can get around the radiator, it will.

    My intake air temps can get super high - like 150 - idling in traffic, and stay higher than I'd expect when driving (135 or so) when it's really hot outside (105-110 on the OBC). And I'm NA. I'd assume you're in worse condition running FI.

    Living in AZ with FI, you will probably have to get an oil cooler. Your intercooler probably IS working. That's probably part of the problem - it's pre-heating the air going to the radiator.

    You may also need to vent your hood to get that hot air out and avoid heat soak. I've been contemplating vents for a long time, but I'm looking for a nice hood from a junkyard car so I'm not cutting up my own original hood.
    We used OBD Fusion to monitor the temps. Yesterday the ambient temperature was about 109. When we first started the car and let it idle, the coolant temp recorded by the app jumped up all the way to 207 degrees before we even started driving! We just let it idle there for like 5 mins. It did not go over 207 but that just seemed ridiculously high for idle. Then when we started driving the temps rose to 212 and by the time we got on the freeway at 80 mph it was at 220 and eventually hit 226 before we got off of the freeway. Then when we came to a stop the temps would fall back down to like 212-214 before we started driving again.

    As for the ducting, I don't think there is any. Where an air duct would go, the intercooler blocks it I think. The car does not even have an underpanel although I have sent an email to Motion Motorsports about their underpanel kit to talk about clearance with their radiator baffle (I'm sure it wouldn't fit with the intercooler but might as well check). Any ducting would need to be custom made and I'd like to exhaust all other options before I try to fab anything up. I was afraid that I might need a vented hood to dissipate the heat but I'll save that as a last ditch effort to try and get things under control.

    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    So, have you considered installing an S54 MZ3 radiator in place of the garbage Mishimoto?

    Edit: Also, if you're having trouble with cooling with an electric fan installed, why not try a mechanical fan?
    Haha I did not know Mishimoto is considered garbage here. Looking through the records the radiator is about 9 years old. It was installed back in 2011 so I think it would be worth trying to replace the radiator with a S54 MZ3 one. That way I also have mounts for the OEM oil cooler.
    As for the mechanical fan, we could try that as well that way the fan is running at the same speed as the engine. We're going to try and install the new electric fan again and see if there's anyway to squeeze out another half inch of clearance in there and save that precious few horsepower lol.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasllani View Post
    We used OBD Fusion to monitor the temps. Yesterday the ambient temperature was about 109. When we first started the car and let it idle, the coolant temp recorded by the app jumped up all the way to 207 degrees before we even started driving! We just let it idle there for like 5 mins. It did not go over 207 but that just seemed ridiculously high for idle. Then when we started driving the temps rose to 212 and by the time we got on the freeway at 80 mph it was at 220 and eventually hit 226 before we got off of the freeway. Then when we came to a stop the temps would fall back down to like 212-214 before we started driving again.

    As for the ducting, I don't think there is any. Where an air duct would go, the intercooler blocks it I think. The car does not even have an underpanel although I have sent an email to Motion Motorsports about their underpanel kit to talk about clearance with their radiator baffle (I'm sure it wouldn't fit with the intercooler but might as well check). Any ducting would need to be custom made and I'd like to exhaust all other options before I try to fab anything up. I was afraid that I might need a vented hood to dissipate the heat but I'll save that as a last ditch effort to try and get things under control.



    Haha I did not know Mishimoto is considered garbage here. Looking through the records the radiator is about 9 years old. It was installed back in 2011 so I think it would be worth trying to replace the radiator with a S54 MZ3 one. That way I also have mounts for the OEM oil cooler.
    As for the mechanical fan, we could try that as well that way the fan is running at the same speed as the engine. We're going to try and install the new electric fan again and see if there's anyway to squeeze out another half inch of clearance in there and save that precious few horsepower lol.
    I don't know why some people don't like Mishimoto - I like mine and it hasn't had any problems.

    It sounds like you're running the stock temp switch.

    I also think the intercooler is heating things up substantially. With the lower temp switch and the AC on (i.e. both fans running on low independent of temps) my car stays super cool - it will settle down to around mid- to high 190's idling in 100-ish ambient heat. From a cold start it'll stay under 200 DRIVING for 30 minutes.

    The underpanel is critical for you here - this is why you're not getting enough cooling at speed.

    I use that plastic cardboard stuff they make election signs out of for all kinds of projects, and that included making my own ducting / block-off panels for the front end to force the air through the radiator instead of around (they're easy to cut with a razor knife, and they're robust enough to handle the demands of the application. I added the squishy pipe insulation foam at the joints). That's important, but under is worse - it creates a lot of lift in addition to the cooling issues. Enough you can feel it just driving down the freeway.

    I'd get that figured out before you go chasing your tail on other stuff. Odds are no matter what you do it'll still run hot until you get the ducting - especially the undertray - sorted out.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasllani View Post
    We used OBD Fusion to monitor the temps. Yesterday the ambient temperature was about 109. When we first started the car and let it idle, the coolant temp recorded by the app jumped up all the way to 207 degrees before we even started driving! We just let it idle there for like 5 mins. It did not go over 207 but that just seemed ridiculously high for idle. Then when we started driving the temps rose to 212 and by the time we got on the freeway at 80 mph it was at 220 and eventually hit 226 before we got off of the freeway. Then when we came to a stop the temps would fall back down to like 212-214 before we started driving again.

    As for the ducting, I don't think there is any. Where an air duct would go, the intercooler blocks it I think. The car does not even have an underpanel although I have sent an email to Motion Motorsports about their underpanel kit to talk about clearance with their radiator baffle (I'm sure it wouldn't fit with the intercooler but might as well check). Any ducting would need to be custom made and I'd like to exhaust all other options before I try to fab anything up. I was afraid that I might need a vented hood to dissipate the heat but I'll save that as a last ditch effort to try and get things under control.



    Haha I did not know Mishimoto is considered garbage here. Looking through the records the radiator is about 9 years old. It was installed back in 2011 so I think it would be worth trying to replace the radiator with a S54 MZ3 one. That way I also have mounts for the OEM oil cooler.
    As for the mechanical fan, we could try that as well that way the fan is running at the same speed as the engine. We're going to try and install the new electric fan again and see if there's anyway to squeeze out another half inch of clearance in there and save that precious few horsepower lol.
    Just put the mechanical fan on and see if it works before you mess with the other electrical fan. Get your baseline functionality question answered before you keep messing with it.
    2011 M3 Sedan
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  4. #29
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    Might not have enough room to put on a mech fan with the supercharger

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    Just put the mechanical fan on and see if it works before you mess with the other electrical fan. Get your baseline functionality question answered before you keep messing with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by das borgen View Post
    Might not have enough room to put on a mech fan with the supercharger
    If we REALLY want to start at the beginning, ducting (or the lack thereof) will cause him to run hot no matter what he does for a fan, especially at speed, and especially with the supercharger and intercooler heating up the air going into the radiator.

    There are guys who doubt it, but a fan at speed will still increase air pressure before the radiator and help create vacuum on the back side of the radiator and make a positive impact on temps. But that ducting is critical to keep the bulk of the pressure in front of the radiator, especially when you're keeping the ac and the aux fan.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  6. #31
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    Eureka!!.. sort of.

    So I took your guys' advise and removed the mishimoto radiator, fan shroud and fan assembly, and the metal expansion tank. I ordered a mechanical fan, fan clutch, fan shroud, MZ3 radiator, and plastic expansion tank with a brass bleeder screw to replace all that and installed everything last night (oem fan shroud is the biggest PITA to work with). We also flushed the radiator before putting it on and loaded it with 50/50 as well as a bottle of water wetter. We drove around today with ambient temperature 105-108F with the sun up and on the surface streets the coolant temp hovered around 205-208F. On the highway the temp would also stay in place at 207-210F going 90 mph @4k rpm with the A/C on full blast! It would occasionally hit 214F when we pushed it hard but as soon as we got back down to 3.5-4k rpm, the temp would stabilize again around 207-208F. Something we were not able to do before (hit 226F driving only 10-15 mins at these speeds).

    One weird thing that happened when we were done with our hour-long highway test drive and came to a stop on the surface streets the temp would drop back down to 205 but when we started driving again, it would go back to 210 on the surface street.? Kind of weird but it did not exceed that so I'm not really worried about that.

    After coming to a complete stop. The coolant temp on OBD fusion was reading about 205F. We turned the a/c off to see if the aux fan would stay on without the a/c to test the fan switch and it did stay on. However as soon as the temp reading went below 205F the aux fan stopped. So I'm guessing the switch is fine. However we did another test and used a laser thermometer to measure the upper and lower radiator hose temps. The upper hose was reading about 185-190F and the lower hose was about 175-180F. None of these temps came close to the 205F we were seeing in OBD Fusion. Could the coolant temp sensor thats in the head that sending data to the ecu be faulty? Is it normal for the coolant temp exiting the engine be lower than what the sensor is reading inside the head?

    All of this is without the underpanel. We ordered one last week from Motion Motorsports but they have yet to update us on anything. They don't have a phone number on their site and they haven't responded to my email I sent over a week ago either so I'm kind of at a loss what to do next. I'll give them a few more days to give us an update of some sort before we do a charge-back. But I digress, I'm hoping with the underpanel the temps will hopefully hover around 200-205F instead of 205-210F. Especially on the highway, we're hoping to see the biggest difference and keep it from hitting 214F.

    On a side-note, the clearance for the upper radiator hose against the supercharger pulley is nearly non-existent. Here are a couple of photos of it. It's kind of hard to capture it on camera but there is about 2mm of clearance. Maybe a bit less. On their site, it looks like there's supposed to be a bracket of some sort connected to the supercharger pulley which holds the hose it place but we're missing it. When we looked at the hose after the test drive, we noticed a bit of dust or something moved where the belt would touch the hose but we didn't notice any physical hose imperfections due to the belt touching. Kind of wild to see such little clearance though and it is worrying me. The clearance with the mechanical fine is find though, it has about 10mm+ of clearance.

    With that said, so far so good. Since we replaced everything at once, it's kind of hard to know exactly what was causing the issue. The mechanical fan does seem to be blowing MUCH harder than the electric spal fan so that's what I'm assuming had the biggest effect. My brother says all of the aluminum with the old setup may have been trapping much more heat and may have also contributed to the rise in temps. What do you guys think?

  7. #32
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    I'd call that success! Those are normal temps given the ambient heat and the driving you were doing, and exactly what I used to see before I switched to a lower temp fan switch.

    I'd say you're in business!

  8. #33
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    So, the short answer is that yes, I would expect marginally higher temperatures in the head vs. the exterior surface of the coolant outlet hose. Also, I wouldn't depend on an IR thermometer to be *that* accurate, as there are so many factors that can impact readings.

    The car is going to operate in a temperature range no matter what you do, so don't be surprised by the temps moving around. There's a reason why the BMW gauge is buffered so it barely ever moves.
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  9. #34
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    As far as Under Panel, my understanding is that the Turner version is an improvement over Motion Motorsports. The MM version, good fitment is challenging. I've installed a couple of the MM panels and had to trim them to fit correctly. If you can cancel, you might want to check out Turner. https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...-m-skid-plate/

  10. #35
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    Yeah from looking at the instructions I think the main difference is the TMS version has superior hardware with conveniences like no nuts anywhere. Makes removal and reinstallation a lot less painful. Makes me wish I had one, though there's no filling in all the holes I had to drill for the MM panel.
    Last edited by TostitoBandito; 07-27-2020 at 04:08 PM.
    1999 M3/2/5 - Titanium Silver - Track/Weekend Toy


  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TostitoBandito View Post
    Yeah from looking at the instructions I think the main difference is the TMS version has superior hardware with conveniences like no nuts anywhere. Makes removal and reinstallation a lot less painful. Makes me wish I had one, though there's no filling in all the holes I had to drill for the MM panel.

    I think the panel cut is more accurate as well. MM, fit is not so great.

  12. #37
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    Finally received the panel today. The packaging was not great but the quality of the piece and its accessories seem really nice. Came with clear picture instructions a well which is also nice. I'll probably install sometime this week or maybe this weekend and update you guys on my results. Does anyone know how to flush the cooling system on the Eurosport supercharger? I need to remove the tank and other items from the bumper and while I'm doing this I would like to also flush the system but I cannot find any info on how to do this. The installation manual somehow skips the whole step of filling it during installation.

  13. #38
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    Motion Motorsport Underpanel Review

    I installed the panel during the week and the fit was pretty much on point. We had to drill out an extra hole for the secondary waterpump for the supercharger and we had to grind down a small bit of the corner edge of the panel since we were not able to line it up properly (I should've measured twice smh). The panel fit was pretty much exactly on point but the hardware that came with the panel was straight up garbage. The locknuts they sent would not go on all the way on the bolt and would not come back off so we ended up breaking two bolts trying to take off the nuts! So instead we used locking washers and normal bolts and that made everything much better and easier to work with. Would NOT recommend using the nuts they include. Anyway, here are a couple photos of the panel installed with the radiator baffle (which is the main reason to go with Motion Motorsports over the other underpanels). Surprisingly, the baffle did not interfere with anything and sat almost completely flush against the bottom of the radiator. The second photo you see here is of the baffle and how it sits. There is a small gap on the left side due to the angle we installed it but it would be extremely easy to fix since the holes for the baffle allow for adjustments.
    e36_underpanel.jpg
    e36_radiator_baffle.jpg
    (backup album in case photos don't work)

    Now for the bad part. We saw virtually no difference between running with and without the underpanel. The cars normal operating temp on the highway seems to fall between 205-210F, but typically settles at 207-208F. The underpanel had no effect on this temperature. In fact, when idling for ~30 minutes or so, the car starts to heat up slowly and gets to 212F, 214F, 216F, we even saw as high as 219F with the underpanel on. I think because the aluminum is trapping in more heat when idling and is acting as a barrier preventing the heat from escaping. While installing the panel with it just sitting in the garage it would feel hot to the touch (everyday was over 110F), I can't imagine how hot it is under the car. With the panel on, the external temperature reading would read 118F when we came to a stop but as soon as we started driving, the external temp reading would drop to 110F. A 9 degree difference! Which also leads me to believe the panel is trapping a lot of heat and introducing heat as well. But the good news is, as soon as I start driving, the temps drop immediately back down to 207-208F.

    I'm not sure if I'm going to keep the panel and I cannot return it since we've drilled and modified it. Might try to make a thin FRP replacement panel using this panel as a template or some other type of plastic material since it seems any aluminum parts would just introduce more heat into the equation. But anyway that's where I'm at. The car is no longer overheating and is running beautifully! If you have any questions or suggestions about the panel or anything else please feel free to let me know.

    I want to thank you guys for your help cause I really would not know what to do had it not been for your suggestions. It took 6 weeks to get it to a stable running place but we finally have it running reliably thanks to you guys.

  14. #39
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    Now that you’ve solved the issue what I’d also suggest is getting a lower temp fan switch.

    This will kick the fan on I believe 15-20 degrees sooner. Simple easy mod.


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  15. #40
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    I would not worry about the car's temperature creeping up a few degrees in extended idling. I also would not expect to see a meaningful change by substituting plastic for the aluminum tray.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG///M3 View Post
    Now that you’ve solved the issue what I’d also suggest is getting a lower temp fan switch.

    This will kick the fan on I believe 15-20 degrees sooner. Simple easy mod.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I have also installed one of these lower temp switches on the car a couple weeks ago but it made no difference in the temps from what I can see. This was the exact one I installed. The fan turned on at the same time as the previous switch did leading me to believe that it had similar switch installed before too. The weird part is the fan's high speed turns on when the temp read 205F. So not the 190F it should have turned on at. Any clues as to why this would be happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
    I would not worry about the car's temperature creeping up a few degrees in extended idling. I also would not expect to see a meaningful change by substituting plastic for the aluminum tray.
    The only reason I noted that was before it never got that hot when idling, only experienced this after the panel install. But maybe you're right about not seeing a meaningful change substituting it with plastic as long as the temps don't creep to high at extended idle. Will keep my eye on this.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasllani View Post
    I have also installed one of these lower temp switches on the car a couple weeks ago but it made no difference in the temps from what I can see. This was the exact one I installed. The fan turned on at the same time as the previous switch did leading me to believe that it had similar switch installed before too. The weird part is the fan's high speed turns on when the temp read 205F. So not the 190F it should have turned on at. Any clues as to why this would be happening?
    The fan switch is on the "cold" side of the radiator.
    2011 M3 Sedan
    2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD LBZ
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    1995 M3 - S50B32/S6S420G/3.91
    1990 325is
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    Hers: 1996 Porsche 911 Turbo
    Hers: 1989 325iX


  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasllani View Post
    I have also installed one of these lower temp switches on the car a couple weeks ago but it made no difference in the temps from what I can see. This was the exact one I installed. The fan turned on at the same time as the previous switch did leading me to believe that it had similar switch installed before too. The weird part is the fan's high speed turns on when the temp read 205F. So not the 190F it should have turned on at. Any clues as to why this would be happening?
    This is right. Like Nick is saying, the fan switch is on the cold side of the radiator. The original turns on at an ODB indicated 215-218 or so (IIRC).

    Curious to know if you can feel a difference in how the car handles with the undertray, and also curious if the panels to the side of the radiator are present or not.

    All that said, I AM surprised you didn't see cooler temps after installing the undertray. But then again, these days I'm on the highway early in my commute, and am on surface streets for the second half. And we've been 10-15 degrees cooler than you guys, which I've found makes a big difference.

    Running steady at 210, fully heat soaked, in 110+ ambient... I don't think that's too bad at all, actually. And I wouldn't call the undertray a waste, either. At the very least you should notice a handling improvement at speed.

  19. #44
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    Don't forget the other benefit of the underpanel, it's not a flimsy piece of plastic that you'll tear apart the first time you touch a curb or the end of a parking spot.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    This is right. Like Nick is saying, the fan switch is on the cold side of the radiator. The original turns on at an ODB indicated 215-218 or so (IIRC).
    Ohhh that makes much more sense. Thanks for the explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Curious to know if you can feel a difference in how the car handles with the undertray, and also curious if the panels to the side of the radiator are present or not.

    All that said, I AM surprised you didn't see cooler temps after installing the undertray. But then again, these days I'm on the highway early in my commute, and am on surface streets for the second half. And we've been 10-15 degrees cooler than you guys, which I've found makes a big difference.
    So I haven’t really been able to drive the car how I want to because of all of this so I’m not really sure if there is a “difference” in handling. Planning on going on a drive soon to really put these fixes to the test.
    Which "panels to the side of the radiator" are you referring to? I was looking up OEM ducting but could not find much information on how its installed in the car. Especially the LTW ducting.

    Quote Originally Posted by blckstrm View Post
    Running steady at 210, fully heat soaked, in 110+ ambient... I don't think that's too bad at all, actually. And I wouldn't call the undertray a waste, either. At the very least you should notice a handling improvement at speed.
    Well when you put it like that, that doesn’t sound all that bad to me either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TostitoBandito View Post
    Don't forget the other benefit of the underpanel, it's not a flimsy piece of plastic that you'll tear apart the first time you touch a curb or the end of a parking spot.
    Yeah this is the biggest reason why I plan on keeping the under panel for now. To protect against any rubbing or debris. Still kind of disappointed in its lack of effect on the temps though but at least it's not overheating anymore.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pasllani View Post
    Well when you put it like that, that doesn’t sound all that bad to me either.
    ... and you're supercharged.

    Keep in mind that you're running below the temperature where BMW activates high speed on the aux fan from the factory. And you live in the second or third hottest place on the planet.

    I really do think that's pretty good. The only way you're likely to run any cooler is with an oil cooler or by venting your hood.

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