^ you mean Bavsound* (Bavauto is no longer here). But very helpful information! Since we are on the topic of HK, can you describe what the spatial button did on the HK setup and why the nonHK didn't have it?
Haha. it is what is it is. I’m referring to BavSound, the drop-in speaker system for E36 (and others). Just my professional opinion. If interested in more data I have it. Basically it’s just as much an ‘upgrade’ and most other entry level aftermarket speaker options. Don’t expect miracles.
My name is Brian Castro. Look me up on LinkedIn or better yet the audio engineering society (AES) or US patent trademark office for all of my published papers and patents regarding transducers and speaker design…
Last edited by brianc; 01-18-2022 at 01:50 AM.
Yes it’s Bavsound. The HIFI switch switches in different gain and filters for certain speakers. It’s exclusively analog from what I recall, analog switches to control the active filters and gain for certain speakers in the ‘top hi fi’ amplifier. It only pertains to the top hi fi system. I do have more info I can dig up. I’ll definitely follow up when have time.
Last Spring I bought the BavSound speakers for my E36 because I had two rear speakers with foam surrounds totally gone, and I was never really happy with the stock (non-HK) sound. The sound is a big improvement, but for me the fact that they make the speakers a Plug and Play replacement for the factory speakers sealed the deal.
The custom mount to place 6x9 rear speakers in place of 5 3/4” speakers is also very nice. And the custom rings to adapt the much improved tweeters into the factory mount is also very nice. Just trying to emulate these custom mounts, plus obtaining connectors to build custom Plug and Play wiring, make any price difference worth it…for me.
Besides, the sound system is secondary to the driving experience…for me.
Agree with this statement. Compared to the Non-HK setup, it was a huge upgrade in sound quality. I'm sure it only slightly edges out my base e46 sound system but its the perfect balance between hearing the natural sounds of the car/road and also what is coming out of my stock unit.
Haha - will do. In fact...
Invitation sent.
...
This is purely entertainment for me. I could stand having my wiring cleaned up - the PO (my cousin) did an aftermarket ... Kenwood? install that wasn't very clean (yeah, I have a freaking capacitor in my trunk I'd love to toss without losing everything or blowing everything and get rid of all the other extraneous wiring). But when I'm driving I don't usually listen to anything other than the car. Maybe someday when the car is done...
Haha, can that actually happen?
-Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.
Very interesting. I think a lot of E36 owners install this kind of speaker kit not so much as an upgrade, but because their original speakers have deteriorated or otherwise failed.
I have the original HK setup in my 1996 M3, but with a CD43 "Business CD" head unit, which has better sound than the original cassette radio. Audio quality is OK, but not a patch on the Fender branded system in my 2015 Golf R, much less the B&O branded system of my wife's 2018 Audi Q5. But then consumer electronics have come a long, long way since the 90s.
I dread the day when my original HK speakers crap out, since I'm really not interested in an audio upgrade project.
Neil
You know I've gone over a year without AC or a sound system in the car and I can't say I miss either. But I'm weird like that.
I will be doing the same sans-stereo, especially considering that I don't want to cut my new door cards for the speaker placements. That said, I do wish I had run the cabling provisions for a discreet rear amp and new speaker wire when I had my interior out - so I at least had the option. Oh well!
RE: Bavsound, I had their entire package in my E38 (sans rear parcel shelf, which I used the VW Monsoon drop-ins). Truth be told I was very underwhelmed, but I agree their main value is that they are a drop-in replacement. Likes most BMW's, the shortcoming is the factory amplifier (and in the 7-series case, the antiquated DSP system).
@brianc - your input on this topic is great, I learned a lot!
I think we are mostly in agreement. The BavSound speakers for the E36 are basically an entry level aftermarket system w/ the added benefit of plug and play. My main gripe is that I don't like the boastful statements on the website and marketing materials. The system was not designed for best sound quality in the E36 for the reasons I mentioned - numerous free design choices would be completely different. They spent more money on marketing and packaging than R&D. Sound quality is subjective of course. The front sound stage is definitely one step up in terms of sound output - it will be play a bit louder before breakup. The rear speakers will be about the same as the HK top hifi speakers w/ little less distortion in the highs. The overall balance and frequency response however is a total crapshoot. If your stock speakers have gone bad I can certainly understand the BavSound option when compared to what you would have to pay for new OE speakers. I think I might start a new thread w/ much more detail on the BavSound.
I also found the documents on the HK Top HIFI system. I have confirmed the HIFI switch simply passes the front and rear soundstage through an analog spatializer (analog crosstalk cancellation)... The switching is indeed all done via analog switches (4016's). The signal path is all analog, all 2nd order active filters for low and high speaker channels sent to four TDA8563 linear amps (true output is ~20W/channel @ 1%THD at 4ohms). Front tweeters for coupe/sedan are high-passed passively w/ capacitor at the speaker. The spatializer is a cheap and cheerful analog crosstalk cancellation that makes the soundstage sound wider (Harman’s version but think Qsound, SRS…they’re all pretty much same thing)… it was a precursor to what became Harman VMAx and numerous digital version of 3D sound based on HRTF’s & crosstalk cancellation. In the early 90's when it was designed there were only a few one-chip digital solutions that are a dime a dozen today - but they were expensive - so it's all old school op amps, analog switches, linear IC-amps, and analog spatializer. I have a half dozen of the amps I think I'm going to start a new thread and share all the information including electrical measurements on the two modes (normal and hifi) that will show exactly what is going on.
Last edited by brianc; 01-28-2022 at 06:19 PM.
^ in lamens terms does that mean the switch makes vocals more clear? I always felt that phone calls and heavy lyrice songs were a bit bassier (or less clear) than with the switch flipped on.
No not at all! The sound is in fact compromised for the sake of a wider soundstage. For the simple analog spatializer in the HK amp exactly what you describe happens. The mid/mid-bass can get muffled for lack of a better word. The first generations of digital 3D sound algorithms could control this somewhat and are better but none perfect.
No. The HK top HIfI amp is better - higher power and lower distortion. Also when HIFI switch is off they have pretty much the same crossovers (except the HK is 8ch vs 10ch w/ passive crossover on front tweeters). The HK tophifi amp is simply better as implemented in all models coupe, sedan, conv.
I think your issue is the CD23 unit. If you upgrade to a CD43 (or even a C43) where the engineers finally solved for the alternator whine issue and removed the limiter, you will get a substantial boost in audio quality.
I didn't believe it until I switched from a C33 to a C43. But not sure if going from Hifi to HK will have similar results.
Brian- if converting from a factory hifi system to HK, it appears plug n play. However, one thing I noticed in looking at the ETM on the e36 is that the Hifi vs HK front door speakers has about a 0.25 gauage variance in wiring of the front speakers. (HK cars came with slightly heavier gauge). Otherwise, the wiring is the same and the cross overs are handled at the amp level. Would the lower guage in the hifi wiring impact power/quality of the HK speakers in your opinion?
We had a pretty big snow storm in early January and the car has been parked since then except for an occasional drive on dry days to circulate fluids. Fortunate to be able to park the car in a climate controlled garage kept at 68 degrees. Weather has turned for the better so diving back into things.
Wanted to finish replacing all the rubber seals so placed an order with BMW of Fairfax- with this order every piece of rubber remaining that I can think of will have been replaced except for the sunroof seals and door seals. I'm sure some of you were already aware, but the door seals are currently not available but not necessarily gone forever. The parts advisor suggested to check back in a month or so.
51362255381 & 51362255382 - rear vent window gaskets
51712234044 - side skirt gaskets
51238207821, 51711977438, 51718165273 x 2 - seals around the hood
51321977683 & 51321977684 - left and right side view mirror gaskets
51718171244 - trunk gasket
Also ordered a couple aftermarket items:
-Mason Engineering clutch pedal (My new OEM is already crooked again)
-Supersprint catted Mid Pipe (US Spec and not due in till August)
Realized I haven't posted the list of parts I accumulated this winter. None of these are installed yet but I need to write this down so I don't lose track of everything
Still need to order a few more things. Goal is to finish the mechanical restoration by end of May, then focus on interior (still undecided on what direction to go). Exterior is pretty much done at this point. Maybe change up the wheels if I come across something cool. Paint is in pretty great shape considering the age, but it would be fun to repaint it a BMW individual color down the road.
Parts waiting to be installed. It's a lot of parts. Basically, the head is getting pulled to be refreshed. VANOS and entire timing system is being refreshed. Oil pump is being refreshed. All gaskets replaced. All sensors replaced. Hardware replaced.
Timing System:
11211719984 - crankshaft sprocket
11211720633 - crank bolt
11231288660 - washer for crank bolt
07119951480 x 2 - woodruff key
11141275466 - Corteco crankshaft seal
07119906123 x 10 - timing case bolts
07-11-9-906-124 x 4 timing case bolts
07-12-9-904-544 x 4 studs for timing case
11311722651 - upper timing chain guide
11311736326 x 2 - upper timing chain guide bolts
11311726480, 11311703717 lower timing chain guides
11111748989 - lower timing chain guide bolt
07119904525 x 2, 07119904524 chain tensioner bolts
11141740843 - Elring timing cover gasket
11141740846 - Elring timing cover gasket
11311432177 - Iwis Racing upper timing chain
11311432176 - Iwis Racing lower timing chain
11317838675 - INA timing chain tensioner
11311738700 - INA upper timing chain tensioner
07119963418 - timing chain tensioner gasket
11417576915 - Iwis Racing oil pump chain
11361403550 - diaphragm spring for intake timing gear
Cylinder Head, VANOS, & sensors:
Elring Cylinder Head Gasket Kit (also comes with exhaust manifold gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, t-stat housing gasket, throttle body gasket, valve stems seals, valve cover gasket)
11127593376 x 24 - exhaust manifold studs from the E90. Easier to install vs E36
11121703341 - Valve cover (is yours streaky looking by the Vanos unit? Well, getting a new one won't fix it)
11311722674 - Screw plug for Vanos
07129904553 - nuts for Vanos
11361436272 - stud bolt (I'll be honest I don't remember why I ordered this)
11361436313 - nut for stud bolt
11361703713 - Victor Reinz o ring for Vanos solenoid
11361705532 - Rein Vanos oil feed line
32416852469 x 2 - banjo bolts for Vanos oil line
NGK BKR6EQUP Spark Plugs x 6
11121740396 - cylinder head hose connector
13621703993 - coolant temp sensor in head
07119963130 x 2 - gasket for coolant temp sensor & hose connector
12141703276 - VDO knock sensors
07119913662 x 2 - bolts for knock sensors
12141709616 - VDO crankshaft position sensor
13627545338 - screw for crankshaft position sensor
12514592703 - harness for crankshaft position sensor
12141748398 - VNE camshaft postion sensor o ring
13531729319 - Pierburg fuel pressure regulator
13631721456 - VNE throttle position sensor
12141703221 - camshaft position sensor
11781437943 x 2 - NTK O2 sensors
Dr. Vanos Stage II Kit & VANOS Solenoid
Oil Filter Housing, Oil Pump, Oil Pan, Dipstick:
BavAuto viton oil filter housing gasket
07119912574, 07119913003 x 2, 07119904504 x 3 - bolts for oil filter housing
12618611273 - oil pressure sensor
Turner Motorsports oil pan baffle kit
11131437237 - Elring oil pan gasket
11411703930 - Z3 reinforced oil pickup tube
11411703947 - gasket for oil pickup tube
07119904517 x 2 - bolt for pickup tube
11431740045 - dipstick tube seal
11431427993 - dipstick
11431717666 x 2 - dipstick tube o ring
11431740045 - dipstick o ring
11137535106 - oil drain plug
11131740000 x 24, 11131435807 x 2, 11131435806 x 2 - oil pan bolts
Figured since I will have everything apart might as well rebuild the power steering pump:
32411135880 - power steering pump rebuild kit
32427574840 x 3 - power steering pulley bolts
07119904115 x 2 - washers for power steering pump bolts
16121180242 x 2 power steering hose bolts
32411093596 x 4 - washers for power steering banjo bolts (should be replaced every time banjo bolts are removed)
Front subframe is being dropped so:
31111114348 x 4 - washers for control arm bolts to chassis
31116781023 x 4 - front subframe bolts
Miscellaneous
51712268565 x 6 - cap nuts for Rally Road strut brace
36112228660 x 2 - //M emblem for strut brace
82110146022 - First aid kit. Safety first
64111469197- Mahle Behr Heater Core
64118390208 - blower motor assembly
Last edited by sirhodjibob; 03-31-2022 at 02:37 AM.
Semi annual wheels off deep clean:
Installed new foglights as my driver's side one had a crack and both were quite pitted. FYI driver's side is NLA from BMW, but I was able to track down a new one from Autohouse AZ. I'm always shocked how little holds these into place on the car every time I remove them.
-63178357389,63178357390
Also ordered some fun stuff:
-Dinan air intake
-Porsche 3.5" MAF with Turner wiring harness adapter
-VAC OBDII 70mm throttle body
-Schrick 256/264 camshafts
-Bosch 24lb injectors
-Supertech Valve stem seals
-Supertech single lock valves
-Supertech valve lock keepers
-Achilles Motorsport oil pump
-Supersprint US Spec headers
A few more things from BMW:
07129905541 x7 - Engine Intake Manifold Nut
07119904527 x2 - Lower Support Bolt
12511744589 - Ignition Coil harness
61618360411, 61618360412 - Wiper Arms
07119904115 x2 - Wiper Arm Washer
07119905515 x2 - Wiper Arm Nut
11341403709 x24 - Valve Springs
11341432453 x24 - Valve Spring Retainers
11341403612 x24 - Valve Spring Seats
13541703588 - Connector Hose (for ASC+T delete)
13541740159 - Hose to IACV
07119905853 x2 - Fit Bolt
31311136465 x4 - Hex Bolt With Washer
34116767217 x 4 - Disc Brake Caliper Bracket Mounting Bolt
13311427-638 - Inlet Fuel Hose
11121405106 - Head Gasket
Last edited by sirhodjibob; 04-12-2022 at 05:34 PM.
Consider sticking with stock valves. I've seen one too many destroyed engines from dropped Supertech single lock groove valves. A couple were here on this site and one was from a long time tech at BMW that I know.
Last edited by Braymond141; 04-13-2022 at 01:37 AM.
Made a bit of progress. Unfortunately I am still waiting on my 3.5" MAF and Supersprint stuff to arrive as well as a few other miscellaneous things on back order, but this should hold me over until then.
Installed:
Dinan Intake with K&N filter that Brett and Brianc suggested. Worked like a charm, but with the Bosche Euro headlights you can't use any of the nice brackets Dinan provides
35411163228 - throttle cable w/ bushings
65718380077 - cruise control cable
35411158855 - accelerator pedal
35411113728 - accelerator pedal bushings
35411152331 - throttle cable grommet
13631721456 - VNE throttle position sensor
51718119200 x2 - gaskets for fuel pump/fuel level covers
Rally Road strut brace (replica of Motorsport strut brace)
36112228660 x2 - ///M logo for strut brace
51712268565 x6 - nuts for strut brace
31331094288 x2 - strut tower gasket (installed under strut brace)
Also deleted ASC+T fully so strut brace could clear- will need to wire in a resistor to get ABS back.
13541703588 - Z3 boot from MAF to throttle body
13541740159 - corresponding IACV hose
Definitely was motivated to replace the throttle cable bushings based on recent threads here but mine turned out to be ok. What were not ok were the bushings and grommets inside the cabin- they basically disintegrated when provoked. New throttle cable absolutely transformed the car and I highly recommend replacing- it feels almost like a brand new car. Dinan intake sounds awesome as well and is a major improvement in sound and quality over the DBilas debacle.
Last edited by sirhodjibob; 05-31-2022 at 05:04 PM.
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