Engine noise identify

[spyderg0d]

Engine has only a few thousand miles.. Its developped an annoying tick or rattle..
It seems to take a few minutes of running before it comes.. It starts at 2k and goes with rev..
I honestly cant tell if its a dead lifter, chain rattle, or vanos rattle. . it seems to be most prevelant when engine is at minimal load like driving at consistant speed on flat road with no hills.. It seems when i floor it, it quiets alittle, and disapears below 1.5k to idle is completely gone.. Cant tell where its coming from in the engine, as it seems to resonate in the whole engine... However, it seems to amplify through the headers and can be heard in the cabin louder than in the engine bay as the cabin is interior stripped... Il try to get a video of it today...
EDIT:... Found to be a repeating faulty rod bearing on cylinder #1..
Also, it seems a ARP head stud had worked its way or loosened from the block recently in the last 100 miles.. Leaving it relatively low torgue from spec.. Which is a conclusion of another thread ive recently posted about green oil (not milk).. ..
EDIT EDIT.. After getting the engine to the machine shop.. Oil pump failure.. Caused mass engine heating.. Caused 2 journals to warp. Caused loose head stud resulting in coolant to leak into oil passageways. No loss of coolant or oil.. Coolant got into warped caps, completey ate. A few bearings from wipe. ... What a mess.. Oil light never came on.

[gdavid]

Engine has only a few thousand miles.. Its developped an annoying tick or rattle..
It seems to take a few minutes of running before it comes.. It starts at 2k and goes with rev..
I honestly cant tell if its a dead lifter, chain rattle, or vanos rattle. . it seems to be most prevelant when engine is at minimal load like driving at consistant speed on flat road with no hills.. It seems when i floor it, it quiets alittle, and disapears below 1.5k to idle is completely gone.. Cant tell where its coming from in the engine, as it seems to resonate in the whole engine... However, it seems to amplify through the headers and can be heard in the cabin louder than in the engine bay as the cabin is interior stripped... Il try to get a video of it today...

That sounds like a lifter tick with the exception of it being gone below 1.5 rpm, sounds perplexing. If it is chain rattle, perhaps the timing chain spring tensioner is weak and allowing some rattle until the oil pressure is higher and is providing more tension. It may be a long shot but I would try a different tensioner or just put a penny behind the spring, it would be a really easy fix.

[spyderg0d]

Already pulled it apart weeks ago and spaced it to appropriate length.. Didnt do anything. Has new chain guides.. Although, when assembling the engine, the wrong main guide came in the package.. The one received did not have the extended end spacer to hold it out away from the block. So i spaced it out with some nuts to hold the guide in place. Although i doubt it it has any meaning or effect as i remember the guide elsewise is exactly the same.. And with this, i had to grind off the ends of the tensioner down to a flat end to accomodate the guide as the guide wasnt notched to accept that style tensioner.

- - - Updated - - -

It seems i used the m52 chain guide.. But is still same shape besides the bottom spaceing to accomodate different block mount rod things.
Guess il have to pull it apart on a warm day.. I dont know how il be able tell what is wrong visually.. Shucks.

[gdavid]

I wonder if the extended length of the tensioner is different between the m50 and m52. I have some spares you are welcome to try.

[spyderg0d]

The length isnt different.. Its space out from the block is different.. The m50 uses a rod pin that screws into the block. The m52 uses a bolt shaped end that screws in with a shorter rod end at the end of it to hold the tensioner.. So the only difference is the m50 has the added width on the mount to cover the entireity of the rod, where is the m52 guide is not extended and sits on the block end of its mount.. Physically they sit in the same position relative. Just how they are seated is different. It maybe valve lash im hearing from a dead lifter. I never considered a valve not closing enough would sound like a chain or rattle in the exhaust.. Still havent got video in the virus scare beating my family down. Lol.

[spyderg0d]

Its not the best video. If another is needed i can probably record with a real deal mic tm..
If you listen to the rev at like 7 or 8 seconds. Youl hear the tapping.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b20rRFkQUYQ

[spyderg0d]

Its also pretty clear at like 37 seconds at the end.. Its that tapping or sputter sound. But in other parts of the video its hard to make out because the engine is louder than the sound when load. It seems to be most prevelant when at coast, when the mpg meets coast and load is minimal to keep the car moving. It certainly goes with rev and the sound increases beats as the revs go up.

[spyderg0d]

This is gonna be stupid to read.... In the very beginning of the video you can hear belt squeel.. I just changed the belt with new tensioners as well... The sound.. Disapeared... The belt had a small rib section missing.. So the sound might of been that slapping around... Or the tensioner wheel wobbling...

[spyderg0d]

I was wrong! Its still there! I havent ran the car since Thursday because of the belt issue.. Today when started it had 0 noise. After letting it idle for a bit, the sound came back..
Heres a better video.. You can hear the tick the most by the exhaust cam front.. At idle, it can be heard inside the passenger wheel well. Bit its very little. If anyone knows, feel free to say.. https://youtu.be/p2-yWz1MPKI

[spyderg0d]

I had a pm by a proffessional builder on a different forum.. He says that it is most likely a dry wrist pin on number 1. Because of the dry rod bearing that happened on cylinder 1, the pin might also of gotten dry and worn excessively.. Welp... Guess im pulling the engine out and going through it after all.. I should be fine driving until the weather gets warm.. I guess it would be good to check everything internally anyway. Ughhhh. Oh well.. Il make a weekend of it..

[gdavid]

Sorry to hear the news, that engine truly seems to be fighting you tooth and nail.

[spyderg0d]

It is.. Thats what happens when you dont fallow break in procedure perfectly... I did the initial oil change too early i think, then before everything was done fitting itself, i waited too long for the next.. Im not really worried about it.. It will be a fun weekend pulling it, ripping it apart, identifying the problem(s) and reassembling. I might just pay the machine shop to assemble it this time. Haha. Plus this time money isnt a big deal and i can afford to get whatever is needed new or garunteed.

[gdavid]

n before everything was done fitting itself, i waited too long for the next.. Im not really worried about it.. It will be a fun weekend pulling it, ripping it apart, identifying the problem(s) and reassembling. I might just pay the machine shop to assemble it this time. Haha. Plus this time money isnt a big deal and i can afford to get whatever is needed new or garunteed.

Your local machine shops rates might be different or your build budget is higher mine but I ruled out having my engine assembled professionally due to cost. It seems to be a great shop run by a very straightforward guy but it would break my budget. My next engine build will be a s52 from a m52 block and the rough estimate for boring the cylinders was $450-500, I'm planning to move forward with this eventually but it just is an example of the pricing.

I'm due for my second oil change in my m52b30 project engine, I started off with castrol conventional 10w30, and used it on the first oil change as well. It has around 1k miles on it now and I'm switching it over to synthetic. I'm pretty pleased with how it is running now but am going to retard the intake cam (m54b30) by 8 degrees based on someguy2800's experience. I have a set of his custom timing blocks arriving this week to make this easier.

[spyderg0d]

Yeah. My guy did my entire block for $175. Thats cylinder bore, tank, line bore, deck the head by .001". .. He might charhe me maybe $300 to put it all together. Thats micing every journal, bearing, ring, pin, valve, tappet, ect.. Its not bad at all if you think about how much work it really is.. And honestly its worth it.. Its kinda cheap, especially when you consider the skill they have for the time. And it will be nice to only have to remove engine (for the 6th time ever) and just put it back in... I have enough experience to do it in a couple hours.. And all the sensors and gaskets are new, so that cut costs a bit. A few gaskets will obviously have to be repurchased. But overall, its just the machine work for sure this time and fluids..

[gdavid]

That is a bargain, and from what I recall, it was someone else who installed the rod bearing that spun, right? I enjoy the engine assembly part and while I'm sure a professional would do a better job, there is something rewarding about knowing you built it yourself. The part I'd gladly hire out in the future is all of the parts cleaning. Getting years of grime and oily mess off of the semi-porous surface of oil pans, timing covers, OFH and various brackets is brutal. When it is all back together and clean it is a really rewarding sight but cleaning it all by hand is mind numbing.

[spyderg0d]

So.. My new timing chain tensioner came in the mail yesterday.. The appropriate early flat end style.. Right away when comparing the 2, the older style is maybe quarter of an inch or more shorter .. And... The end of the one i pulled out... Is grooved at the end... As in the chain probably worn through the guide and was eating the tensioner end... The noise hasent disapeared, but its considerably less now.. .. Looks like i might be getting away with new guides. Its crazy how this story is revolving.. Just a reminder.. Tensioners arenot swapable. Haha.

[gdavid]

So.. My new timing chain tensioner came in the mail yesterday.. The appropriate early flat end style.. Right away when comparing the 2, the older style is maybe quarter of an inch or more shorter .. And... The end of the one i pulled out... Is grooved at the end... As in the chain probably worn through the guide and was eating the tensioner end... The noise hasent disapeared, but its considerably less now.. .. Looks like i might be getting away with new guides. Its crazy how this story is revolving.. Just a reminder.. Tensioners arenot swapable. Haha.

As far potential timing chain guide wear, you might be able to check the top end of the guide for damage with the valve cover off and perhaps a borescope, with the tensioner out to allow some slack in the chain. The plastic guide may be forgiving and quiet down as the chain settles into place, where it will be riding on the guide. If the guide was as slapping around loose without proper pressure from the tensioner, it may have been flexing fore and aft, allowing the chain to hit the guides on the side. With the chain now confined to the right track, it may smooth out any damage and quiet down.

[spyderg0d]

You misunderstand.. I had the newer longer style in to begin with.. Sob i think it forced the guide into the chain.. Wearing the guide out, the chain eating through thw guide and making contact with the. Tensioner.. Now with the shorter older style tensioner in, the chain still has that slack from the worn guide even though the guide is now proper length. Leaving me with still chain slap... The bit i drove today the tick was much less loud.. The engine ran much more smooth as well and more grunt.. So im ordering the guide now.. Today i also start quarantine procedure for my family as we were exposed to a posative rona case according to docs. So.. Ordering my stuff tn. Il have plenty of time to do anything over tje next couple of weeks. Haha. The roni vacation turns out to be ok. Haha

[gdavid]

Yeah I totally misunderstood and am thoroughly confused as I thought the new style tensioner along with the new style guide would work fine as you already took care of the spacing from the block. Also, all my m52 pensioners were flat on the end. Of course it only matters that you understand and have a clear way ahead.

[spyderg0d]

The tensioner has to match the guide.. Maybe i have my ideas backwards...
Is it old style tensioner that are flat ended or that have the slotted end? It was my understanding that the slotted tensioners that go over the sides of the guide are new style.. Maybe they are the old style? When i part searched, the proper spaced guide rail was for pre 95 build dates or somewhere close to that date and had the flat tensioner. It was the one with the spacing from the block.. Is that the guide that reguired the tensioner with the slot end? Jesus.. This is turning into a shit show for me.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the issue that started this is that i used the wrong guide to the block.. Instead of waiting amd ordering the proper guide i spaced mine out from the block with simple hardware.. That guide, requires the flat end tensioner. I used the slotted one like a moron.. So... If this is right, the proper guide with the spaced out bottom clip, requires a the longer tensioner with the slotted end... ... So.. I have to buy another slotted tensioner that i havent modified like a moron. Hah.. Great..

- - - Updated - - -

And my freshly changed oil is now green.. My arp head studs must have needed a check up and retorque over winter.. I swear to god...

[gdavid]

I don't know about the m50 but the I have 4 m52's all had flat ends. I know there was an upgraded "hydraulic" tensioner that came out as a retrofit, the m3's may have had them but I don't know. From pictures, it appears that the pivot pin for the exhaust side guide is in the same position on m50 and m52 so I agree that as long as the tensioner and guide match it should work (after spacing the pin/bolt.

[spyderg0d]

Ugh.. Now im over reacting. I have no coolant loss.. Just the regular ole cold starts and short drives building condensate..
I searched the internet for videos of specific aounda and nothing stood out.. So i tried one of those oil addatives for lifter noise.. The thick stuff. Not the thinning kind.. And it took care of 70% of the noise.. It was indeed a lifter that was draining as the oil heated and thinned out.. Now the chain slap is completely obvious. That too only happens as the engine geta exactly to OT.. Sounds as if a bike with a card in the spokes like children do for the sound effect. Also.. The noise is absolutely magnified in the cabin.. What blends in with engine grunt in the bay, stands out like an empty rattle can being shaken inside the car.. Thats the frustrating part.. Im probably still going to open it up when it gets warm and go through it all anyway to make sure i didnt just mask another problem.. I take it as a lesson lile said before... Even if your capable.. Just have a qualified machine shop put an engine together.. Lol.

[spyderg0d]

Nope... Noise is back.. And its gotten worse. Ive had to park it. Started to backfire and pop.. Looks like engine removal is in my weekend adventure.. Greaaaaaat.. Not..

[spyderg0d]

After getting the engine to the machine shop.. Turns out i had mass low end bearing failure.. Due to.... Bum ba da bummmmm! Oil pump failure!

[gdavid]

Internal failure of the pump or did the sprocket come off? Was you oil pressure light ever coming on?