E36 S50/M52/S52 Turbo Camshaft Options

[lbennyboobool]

I've read a couple older threads talking about different turbo camshaft options. I learned some things but I came out with more questions than answers while reading through them. I'm hear to learn and understand, I guess for a lack of better wording, the art of picking the correct camshafts for my build.I have two cars that I am looking for a set of cams for, so I will try to list the mods and goals for each one and be more than happy to correct my thinking or educate where I may be looking at things all wrong.


I have a 1995 turbo m3 that has an S50 with aftermarket rods (can't remember the name), mls .140 head gasket with arp head studs and stock s50 camshafts. I'm running an OBX top mount manifold and plan on switching the turbo to a Precision 6262 with a 0.8x t4 exhaust housing. It currently has a Precision 6266 with a .96 t4 exhaust housing and has more lag than I would like. The "goal" for this car is to make around 600whp and have it spool quicker than it currently is.

I also have a 1992 e34 525 touring that I plan on building as a daily. I have an m52 block with the m52b28 crank and pistons and running the m50 non vanos rods. Non vanos head with a cutring (without spacer) and arp head studs. I plan on running straight e85 on this car and that's why I opted out of the spacer. Currently just have the m50 non vanos camshafts. Not sure on turbo so open to opinions but I would imagine it may be another 6262. Do not have a manifold for it yet, but I would like it to be a top mount as well. I would like to make around 450whp with this car and spool nice and smooth and quick. It will strictly be a street car.


What would people recommend for camshafts for each application? I'm open to custom grinds or off the shelf cams. Also don't mind learning how to degree them either. I'm not looking for big power, so i'm not necessarily looking for something really aggressive, but also here to learn so I don't mind hearing about those as well. I know stock cams will do the job, but I would like to get a set of cams that would compliment what i'm trying to accomplish if that makes sense. Open to any suggestions.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I can't comment on camshafts personally - you can always change the centerline on your S50 cams for better spool up though if that is all you're looking for.

As for you thinking of going to a 6262 for better spool - I would advise against that since you're spending money in the wrong spot, the 6262 doesn't spool quickly at all on these motors and the 6266 and 6262 will likely spool exactly the same.

If you're looking for quicker spool and willing to spend money on a different turbo why not move to a smaller BW EFR turbo

[lbennyboobool]

I can't comment on camshafts personally - you can always change the centerline on your S50 cams for better spool up though if that is all you're looking for.

As for you thinking of going to a 6262 for better spool - I would advise against that since you're spending money in the wrong spot, the 6262 doesn't spool quickly at all on these motors and the 6266 and 6262 will likely spool exactly the same.

If you're looking for quicker spool and willing to spend money on a different turbo why not move to a smaller BW EFR turbo

I don’t really understand what changing the centerline on the cams mean or what it affects. Sorry for the ignorance but could you explain further?

The m3 I’m not super concerned with it spooling as quickly as the e34. The 6262 is on the m3 and I feel like the smaller A/R turbine housing will help with the spooling on that one. Open to ideas for the e34. Hopefully that makes sense

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I don’t really understand what changing the centerline on the cams mean or what it affects. Sorry for the ignorance but could you explain further?

The m3 I’m not super concerned with it spooling as quickly as the e34. The 6262 is on the m3 and I feel like the smaller A/R turbine housing will help with the spooling on that one. Open to ideas for the e34. Hopefully that makes sense

There's a few threads about camshafts on here that you can read. Search for them.

I don't quite follow - you said you wanted to switch the turbo on the M3, but then you said you're not worried about spool on the M3.

IMO you will not gain any effective spool by moving to the 6262 - if you want you can put a .8x housing on the 6266 though although I'm not convinced you will see any net positive on spool with that change either.

If you're not happy with the spool on the 6466 then I do not suggest you put a 6262 on the E34. Grab a plain old GT35R instead. Or consider an EFR, or even a smaller precision like 5858 maybe.

[lbennyboobool]

There's a few threads about camshafts on here that you can read. Search for them.

I don't quite follow - you said you wanted to switch the turbo on the M3, but then you said you're not worried about spool on the M3.

IMO you will not gain any effective spool by moving to the 6262 - if you want you can put a .8x housing on the 6266 though although I'm not convinced you will see any net positive on spool with that change either.

If you're not happy with the spool on the 6466 then I do not suggest you put a 6262 on the E34. Grab a plain old GT35R instead. Or consider an EFR, or even a smaller precision like 5858 maybe.

I've read a few camshaft threads and they have mentioned changing the centerline, but I haven't seen one actually explain it in depth, but I will research some more.

For the M3 I would like it to spool quicker than it is. Nothing crazy, just want it to hit boost before 3600 rpm. It feels like it's hitting boost and then hitting it all at once and I want to smooth it out some. I'm basically trading parts for a fresh rebuilt 6262, so that's why I'm going with that one for now.

The e34 isn't running. The engine is basically put together and nothing else has really been done, so i'm asking questions more so on this build because I want to be able to have the "right" combination of parts for them to all be working together.

I understand the turbo has allot to do with all of this, but I really want to learn more about camshafts. I am merely outlining what I have and what my goals are to have a reference of what could be possible with different camshaft configurations

[NOTORIOUS VR]

For the M3 I would like it to spool quicker than it is. Nothing crazy, just want it to hit boost before 3600 rpm. It feels like it's hitting boost and then hitting it all at once and I want to smooth it out some. I'm basically trading parts for a fresh rebuilt 6262, so that's why I'm going with that one for now.

I can only say from my own data that that the 6262 with a 0.81 T4 housing on a 3L M52 w/ S52 cams is not a fast spooling/hitting turbo. You will find the same info on here if you look around with people running the 6262 on various combinations as well.

[wgknestrick]

Do you have an existing dyno plot to post? Cams aren't going to do much for spool IMO.

Spool is turbo size, turbo rotational inertia, manifold port length/construction, twin scroll, and then insulation. EFRs spool wonderfully as do the new G-series.

[lbennyboobool]

I can only say from my own data that that the 6262 with a 0.81 T4 housing on a 3L M52 w/ S52 cams is not a fast spooling/hitting turbo. You will find the same info on here if you look around with people running the 6262 on various combinations as well.

would it make any difference if it is a t3 housing? the e34 is my main concern with the spooling and i'm open to options with that turbo but not many people seem to be doing the e34 with top mounts so unsure if there will be fitment complications

- - - Updated - - -

Do you have an existing dyno plot to post? Cams aren't going to do much for spool IMO.

Spool is turbo size, turbo rotational inertia, manifold port length/construction, twin scroll, and then insulation. EFRs spool wonderfully as do the new G-series.

I do not have any dyno graphs at the moment. M3 is getting a rebuilt turbo and the tune worked out and the e34 isn't put together to run yet

[NOTORIOUS VR]

would it make any difference if it is a t3 housing? the e34 is my main concern with the spooling and i'm open to options with that turbo but not many people seem to be doing the e34 with top mounts so unsure if there will be fitment complications

No - again the 6262 is just not a fast spooling turbo.. it is a very capable unit that will make north of 600whp but there are trade offs for that capability.

GT35R is a very compact turbo that will if need be and you go all out maybe 600whp still but is known to spool extremely quickly. A cast wheel 35R isn't going to be a very expensive option either.

[lbennyboobool]

No - again the 6262 is just not a fast spooling turbo.. it is a very capable unit that will make north of 600whp but there are trade offs for that capability.

GT35R is a very compact turbo that will if need be and you go all out maybe 600whp still but is known to spool extremely quickly. A cast wheel 35R isn't going to be a very expensive option either.

I'll look into it.

Still would like to learn about cams and options for non vanos heads running boost

[someguy2800]

The difference between a good turbo cam and a good NA cam is usually about 5 degrees of centerline change on the exhaust cam.

Something I have been dying to test on a dyno is retiming the stock S52 cams. I recently got a copy of DynoSim5 to replace my old desktop dyno software and I've been experimenting with simulations of different cam combinations. This is what the software predicts from retiming S52 cams on an turbo M52. I believe this was with the exhaust cam retarded 8 degrees and the intake advanced by 6.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

The difference between a good turbo cam and a good NA cam is usually about 5 degrees of centerline change on the exhaust cam.

Something I have been dying to test on a dyno is retiming the stock S52 cams. I recently got a copy of DynoSim5 to replace my old desktop dyno software and I've been experimenting with simulations of different cam combinations. This is what the software predicts from retiming S52 cams on an turbo M52.

Neat! a little trade off down low for a substantial gain up top!

The image compression is making everything in that picture really hard to read though just so you know.

By the way, ping me your ideas - my good friends 3L M52 w/ S52 cams E30 is going to be tuned on his fresh motor + new 6466 in the spring time and I might be able to do the testing on it that you're thinking of while on the dyno. I guess with your cam jiggys it should be pretty simple/quick to do too.

[someguy2800]

In short the factory cam timing is not optimal to make the best power. The stock cam timing is a compromise to deliver good fuel economy and a smooth quiet idle quality. By closing the exhaust later we can increase the flow through the system at TDC to better scavenge the cylinder and make more power. We can also alter the intake cam timing for the same reason and to move the power peaks where we want them by controlling the intake closing point.

People often assume that cams are always a compromise where you have to loose something in the midrange to gain something on the top end. This is not true. A good cam setup can increase power over the entire RPM range. More power at low rpm will translate to faster spool.

- - - Updated - - -

Neat! a little trade off down low for a substantial gain up top!

The image compression is making everything in that picture really hard to read though just so you know.

By the way, ping me your ideas - my good friends 3L M52 w/ S52 cams E30 is going to be tuned on his fresh motor + new 6466 in the spring time and I might be able to do the testing on it that you're thinking of while on the dyno. I guess with your cam jiggys it should be pretty simple/quick to do too.

Sure, I would love to be involved with that and I'll make you a set of tools if you post the data. It only takes maybe 20 minutes to change the cam timing. Just have to put the motor at TDC, loosen the 4 bolts on the exhaust cam, rotate both cams to the new position, and tighten the 4 bolts agian.

[TheJuggernaut]

I guess with your cam jiggys it should be pretty simple/quick to do too.

I'll bring the cam jiggys

[lbennyboobool]

so again I apologize for my ignorance....changing the centerline essentially means adjusting the timing of the cams?

[pbonsalb]

Yes. A few here have played around with cam timing. It’s a bit of a laborious process to experiment. Chikinhed has done it and you could research his thread. If you had certain cams in mind and someguy2800 has already figured out what works best for those cams and made blocks to create that timing, the process would be way easier. I think Chikinhed said his aftermarket cams were off slightly even when using stock timing blocks, something he found out only after using a degree wheel. I have not played around with cam timing yet, but have used S52 and Schrick 264/256 cams timed with stock spec timing blocks and like the Schricks. They seem to have no downside and some upside. That is also borne out by dyno testing in naturally aspirated motors over the years.

[Gmfwd]

This is why I dont understand why dual vanos isnt more attractive to people on here?

Can run m54B30 cams with dual vanos in a m50/m52 engine and play with all these settings via laptop instead of making mechanical changes.

[pbonsalb]

Can you do that with a single vanos ECU from an OBD2 E36? If not, does a dual vanos ECU from an E39 or E46 swap directly into a single vanos E36? The people doing S54 swaps encounter this issue, so I know it’s possible, but it seems to be expensive and complex from what I have read. The only E36 related chassis that had dual vanos were the Euro M3 from about 96-99 and the Z3 M from 01-03.

[lbennyboobool]

Yes. A few here have played around with cam timing. It’s a bit of a laborious process to experiment. Chikinhed has done it and you could research his thread. If you had certain cams in mind and someguy2800 has already figured out what works best for those cams and made blocks to create that timing, the process would be way easier. I think Chikinhed said his aftermarket cams were off slightly even when using stock timing blocks, something he found out only after using a degree wheel. I have not played around with cam timing yet, but have used S52 and Schrick 264/256 cams timed with stock spec timing blocks and like the Schricks. They seem to have no downside and some upside. That is also borne out by dyno testing in naturally aspirated motors over the years.

I will more than likely mirror Perry's old engine setup for the e34. I know many NA people go for the Schrick 264/256 cams, but wasn't sure how that carried over once the car is turbo'd, I guess it would still be beneficial since you're just cramming more air into the engine. I'll look at Chikinhed's build thread. Thanks again for your input.

- - - Updated - - -

The difference between a good turbo cam and a good NA cam is usually about 5 degrees of centerline change on the exhaust cam.

Something I have been dying to test on a dyno is retiming the stock S52 cams. I recently got a copy of DynoSim5 to replace my old desktop dyno software and I've been experimenting with simulations of different cam combinations. This is what the software predicts from retiming S52 cams on an turbo M52. I believe this was with the exhaust cam retarded 8 degrees and the intake advanced by 6.

The amount of research you do for this platform is phenomenal. I'm sure I will be contacting you more once I get closer

[Gmfwd]

Can you do that with a single vanos ECU from an OBD2 E36? If not, does a dual vanos ECU from an E39 or E46 swap directly into a single vanos E36? The people doing S54 swaps encounter this issue, so I know it’s possible, but it seems to be expensive and complex from what I have read. The only E36 related chassis that had dual vanos were the Euro M3 from about 96-99 and the Z3 M from 01-03.

Yes its pretty easy with MS42, because it still drives by a throttle cable. 99-00 e46. The MS42 throttlebody fits the M50 manifold sideways.

There are some challenges to overcome but all in all probably less than a standalone and still OBD2 compliant to a point.

[chikinhed]

I was able to cut my transient response from 0.6 sec down to 0.3 sec (0 psi to 19 psi) by adjust my cam timing, reducing overlap on the Schrick 264/256 cams.

[pbonsalb]

If someguy makes blocks to replicate your timing, I’d use them. Or if you share your specs, I’d probably go through the hassle of degreeing.

[E36Mylo]

Just picked up a set of Schrick 264s and would also be very interested in timing blocks to set them up to perform better.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[chikinhed]

Someguy has my cam settings

The last time I did my cam timing after retorquing the head studs, I had recorded the angle if the end of the cams HORIZONTAL surface relative to the valve cover surface and duplicated it on reassembly. Something tells me that the end isn’t a perfect square so my measured angles may not translate to the VERTICAL surface. I’d actually have to check for square to be confident about using the measured angles with Perry’s blocks.

[E36Mylo]

Interesting.... I'm in for the blocks. Let's make some power.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk