Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 201

Thread: The new BleedsBlue moneypit: GD62389 '92 M5 3.8

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Tempe, AZ
    Posts
    7,658
    My Cars
    1995 525i/5
    Ah yes, that reminds me of the E34 540i/6 that I recently serviced at my shop, the clutch started failing in the same way as yours, and it also turned out to be a failed DMF that had come apart— I could move it back and forth by hand with almost no resistance! It got replaced with a JBR LWFW and stock E34 540i clutch, which now feels fantastic.
    1995 525i 5-speed - Thread

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ATX
    Posts
    3,450
    My Cars
    Sundry old Grrrrmans
    Quote Originally Posted by a777fan View Post
    Sweet work. Thanks for posting.

    Took me back a few months to the clutch and flywheel job on my 540. Glad you were able to dremel that offending bolt out. Can’t tell you how much adrenaline I’ve been juiced with in similar situations.
    I will try to keep it up. We've all got to!

    I HEAR you on the adrenaline, haha. I was caking my pants when I realized I had to break loose that top bolt, since that would have been unDremelable.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyzabolotny View Post
    Ah yes, that reminds me of the E34 540i/6 that I recently serviced at my shop, the clutch started failing in the same way as yours, and it also turned out to be a failed DMF that had come apart— I could move it back and forth by hand with almost no resistance! It got replaced with a JBR LWFW and stock E34 540i clutch, which now feels fantastic.
    Wow Danny, I was completely spacing that this was a potential 540i fitment as well. Dang! How many of these have you seen?

    We are in love with JBR, for sure.
    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    513
    My Cars
    1995 540/6 Calypsorot
    Ahhh, takes me back to when we tackled this plus much more on the 540...lots of cussing and frustration lol. Glad you got it all sorted out.
    Jason Grace

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Tempe, AZ
    Posts
    7,658
    My Cars
    1995 525i/5
    Quote Originally Posted by BleedsBlue View Post
    Wow Danny, I was completely spacing that this was a potential 540i fitment as well. Dang! How many of these have you seen?

    We are in love with JBR, for sure.
    Well there's two guys locally now that have the JBR + stock E34 540i clutch setup, Nick and Cole (I did the clutch/flywheel in his car). There will be a third soon, as one of my friends' M-Sport has an awfully noisy DMF that's been acting up a bit. That seems to be what kills the V8's, more so than actual clutch failure. Meanwhile all of the straight 6 clutches I've done have just been textbook clutch failure.

    For my own 525i, I'm gonna go with the Valeo single mass conversion kit, which comes with a solid flywheel and a clutch for pretty reasonable money. I put that setup in Kurtis' S50 car and it's been working extremely well, even with near-daily burnouts, donuts, some drifting, and the occasional track day.
    1995 525i 5-speed - Thread

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    5,376
    My Cars
    '91 M5
    Enjoyed the read. The front brakes look really good in that last picture. Was the DMF rattling hard on engine shutoff?
    Current Fleet:
    E34 1991 M5 Macaoblau on Complete (ruined)Leather Champagne - http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1705166

    Past:
    E34 1989 535i 5-Speed AlpineweissII on Natur - Parted
    E34 1992 525i 5-Speed Islandgrun on Pergament - Parted
    E34 1995 540i 6-Speed ShwarzII on Shwarz - Sold to Sneezy.
    E34 1995 525i 5-Speed Calypso Red on Parchment - http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1748143 - Sold locally.
    E39 1998 528i 5-Speed Black on Black - Sold locally.
    E34​ 1993 M5 Alpinweiss on Black - http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...lpinweissII-M5 - Parted


  6. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ATX
    Posts
    3,450
    My Cars
    Sundry old Grrrrmans
    Quote Originally Posted by UnrulyGrace View Post
    Ahhh, takes me back to when we tackled this plus much more on the 540...lots of cussing and frustration lol. Glad you got it all sorted out.
    Absolutely dude! I know we did much more on your car at once, but all things considering this job went a bit more smoothly. I missed having Freddy's calming presence around though, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyzabolotny View Post
    Well there's two guys locally now that have the JBR + stock E34 540i clutch setup, Nick and Cole (I did the clutch/flywheel in his car). There will be a third soon, as one of my friends' M-Sport has an awfully noisy DMF that's been acting up a bit. That seems to be what kills the V8's, more so than actual clutch failure. Meanwhile all of the straight 6 clutches I've done have just been textbook clutch failure.

    For my own 525i, I'm gonna go with the Valeo single mass conversion kit, which comes with a solid flywheel and a clutch for pretty reasonable money. I put that setup in Kurtis' S50 car and it's been working extremely well, even with near-daily burnouts, donuts, some drifting, and the occasional track day.
    Very cool. JBR the world, then!

    For those coming from single mass flywheels, there are definitely cheaper options - especially when the single mass flywheels last so long and can be resurfaced. In my case, I wanted to enhance the S38 nature and a new DMF costs a fortune. Plus, it could just fail again!

    Quote Originally Posted by TGreene View Post
    Enjoyed the read. The front brakes look really good in that last picture. Was the DMF rattling hard on engine shutoff?
    Cheers Trevor! I love these brakes. It's going to be tough to switch to the AP Racing setup honestly, but that's where my heart lies. I know you'll be interested in this, but I think there is room for development of a lighter-weight rotor for the F30 calipers. If we could keep that option to a reasonable price range, this setup would be really hard to beat for cost AND performance.

    The DMF was rattling all over the place. Of course, LWFWs are known for chatter as well, so I can't say the car is quieter - but it's a different sound, as well.
    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Kansas City MO
    Posts
    8,631
    My Cars
    Too Many
    Beautiful car!

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    266
    My Cars
    '91 E34 M5
    Quote Originally Posted by BleedsBlue View Post
    I wanted to enhance the S38 nature and a new DMF costs a fortune. Plus, it could just fail again!

    The DMF was rattling all over the place. Of course, LWFWs are known for chatter as well, so I can't say the car is quieter - but it's a different sound, as well.
    Brent please please please upload a quick vid of revs with the new SMF setup! Been wanting to see how it livens it up and how it feels to drive with the S38!
    Friends have put it into motors from M20s, M50s, and M60s all loving it. This is a wanted upgrade for me as well!

    Glad you were able to turn super sour lemons to juicy lemonade with your pal CaneDVM tho!

    John

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    2,765
    My Cars
    E34 M5, E36 M3, E90 M3
    Lovely build thread and amazing photos! Keep us posted on the exhaust situation, my M5 could benefit from a little bit of a diet...
    Last edited by Johal E32; 11-19-2020 at 01:00 PM.

  10. #60
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    BFE
    Posts
    11,090
    My Cars
    E34T
    Much empathy for that sinking feeling of being far from home with major problems..

    Sprung clutch, I hope?

    I've often been able to manage the lack of an alignment tool by either making one out of random sockets and other items, or leaving the pressureplate bolts tightened just enough to hold the clutch disk from falling, but not so tight that it can't be wiggled around. Then use the transmission itself as an alignment tool - insert fully, remove, tighten bolts, reinstall, et voila.

    Hate those damn E-torx bolts. Not sure about the G280, but of the 37BZ's 11 or so E-Torx bolts, only two are actually required and they're easier to reach. The rest can be replaced with much more robust hex bolts, with adequate clearance for tools.
    Last edited by moroza; 11-19-2020 at 06:11 PM.

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,134
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    Awesome thread! Regarding flywheels - I recently put a Getrag 6-speed (from a 540i) in my e32 740il and went with a single mass steel flywheel instead of the stock 540 dual mass flywheel. I installed a new stock e34 540i clutch (265mm diameter), which is unsprung. I love how fast the engine revs now, and surprisingly the clutch engagement is so nice and smooth, especially considering I'm not using a DMF or a sprung clutch disk. Unfortunately this came with a big downside - When the engine is at idle, and the trans is in neutral with the clutch engaged, there is an awfully annoying gear lash rattle from the transmission because I didn't use a sprung clutch disk with this solid flywheel. Normally the the DMF would absorb the engine power pulses and keep the gearbox from rattling in neutral. Something to consider.

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ATX
    Posts
    3,450
    My Cars
    Sundry old Grrrrmans
    Quote Originally Posted by HE53 View Post
    Beautiful car!
    Thank you - and back atcha. I always love scrolling across your sig

    Quote Originally Posted by doubleJC View Post
    Brent please please please upload a quick vid of revs with the new SMF setup! Been wanting to see how it livens it up and how it feels to drive with the S38!
    Friends have put it into motors from M20s, M50s, and M60s all loving it. This is a wanted upgrade for me as well!

    Glad you were able to turn super sour lemons to juicy lemonade with your pal CaneDVM tho!

    John
    You got it, John! Will do once the thing is fully broken in; I hope it translates to video but if not, I can get a back-to-back comparo with one of CaneDVM's stock 3.8s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johal E32 View Post
    Lovely build thread and amazing photos! Keep us posted on the exhaust situation, my M5 could benefit from a little bit of a diet...
    Thanks much! And will do, I will start a thread on that product as I think it's warranted. I just ordered my Eisenmann Race today in fact, which we'll pair with some choice 321 tubes, Burns resonators, and HJS cats (I'm not willing to ditch cats).

    I'll definitely do a carbon hood when we get to it, and after that it's all nick-and-dime steps to try and reduce weight where you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    Much empathy for that sinking feeling of being far from home with major problems..

    Sprung clutch, I hope?

    I've often been able to manage the lack of an alignment tool by either making one out of random sockets and other items, or leaving the pressureplate bolts tightened just enough to hold the clutch disk from falling, but not so tight that it can't be wiggled around. Then use the transmission itself as an alignment tool - insert fully, remove, tighten bolts, reinstall, et voila.

    Hate those damn E-torx bolts. Not sure about the G280, but of the 37BZ's 11 or so E-Torx bolts, only two are actually required and they're easier to reach. The rest can be replaced with much more robust hex bolts, with adequate clearance for tools.
    Sprung, yessir. I wouldn't have it any other way.

    That's not a bad idea to use the trans itself - a bit more laborsome, but foolproof.

    I actually thought a lot about why those feckers are E-Torx, and not hex. Good point!

    Quote Originally Posted by m60power View Post
    Awesome thread! Regarding flywheels - I recently put a Getrag 6-speed (from a 540i) in my e32 740il and went with a single mass steel flywheel instead of the stock 540 dual mass flywheel. I installed a new stock e34 540i clutch (265mm diameter), which is unsprung. I love how fast the engine revs now, and surprisingly the clutch engagement is so nice and smooth, especially considering I'm not using a DMF or a sprung clutch disk. Unfortunately this came with a big downside - When the engine is at idle, and the trans is in neutral with the clutch engaged, there is an awfully annoying gear lash rattle from the transmission because I didn't use a sprung clutch disk with this solid flywheel. Normally the the DMF would absorb the engine power pulses and keep the gearbox from rattling in neutral. Something to consider.
    Cheers sir! I didn't even consider an unsprung clutch, but that's good feedback. Appreciate the input
    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  13. #63
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Campbell, Tx
    Posts
    124
    My Cars
    1995 530i, 1995 540i
    I whole heartily agree that the single mass flywheel is the way to go. My 540 still has the DMFW where as the 530 has a LWFW. I enjoy driving the lesser powered car more because of that!

    I saw someone post a video at MSR and spotted what I believed to be your car in there so I had to come check and see how the track day went?

    Also I miss that Taco place you visited, when the wife and I lived in Hudson Oaks I worked for the local gas company out there and got to enjoy that place frequently. I remember when it opened, free margaritas woohoo!

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ATX
    Posts
    3,450
    My Cars
    Sundry old Grrrrmans
    Quote Originally Posted by consti2tion View Post
    I whole heartily agree that the single mass flywheel is the way to go. My 540 still has the DMFW where as the 530 has a LWFW. I enjoy driving the lesser powered car more because of that!

    I saw someone post a video at MSR and spotted what I believed to be your car in there so I had to come check and see how the track day went?

    Also I miss that Taco place you visited, when the wife and I lived in Hudson Oaks I worked for the local gas company out there and got to enjoy that place frequently. I remember when it opened, free margaritas woohoo!
    Oh, nice! Was the video from the Burbles of Bavaria or the driving itself? Assuming the former, which is still cool. We just didn't have much time to check out the show!

    I pretty much have to hit that taco joint every visit up there now, it's got all the right stuff

    HPDE 2 + JBR Shakedown success
    CaneDVM and I were back on track, this time just ~10 min from his home base and an easy 400mi round trip from mine, at MSR in Cresson. This time, balance was restored in the Garching Force, as Mr E34 himself was back in a suitable Bavarian burbler: a newly-delivered legitimate B38 Ring Tool, with hundreds of Nordschleife laps and stickers from Spa and other European legends.

    Slicktop, Daytona Violet, fully caged, and cleanly built. OMGWTFBBQ!!!



    The car was not long in the CaneDVM stable before a mint set of 17x8/9 Fikses found their way on. This car will shortly receive our 17"-optimized 6 piston AP Racing Radi-Cal brake kit with 355mm J-hook rotors, but on such short notice, CaneDVM simply conducted a thorough brake job for the E32 front calipers (on 324mm rotors) and regular M5 (300mm) rears. He also opted for our MSI Racing Products 85mm front studs, 75mm rear studs, and yellow-coated "Pit" nuts.



    Double-booger expansion tanks! The history on the Ring Tool is somewhat unknown, beyond passing recent stringent inspections. For instance, we aren't aware of the B38's history, despite it feeling strong - but it would regardless with likely 300+ lbs dropped!



    Needless to say, that car drew a ton of attention, which is always nice - to chat with enthusiasts. It also confirmed my love for the true sleeper-spec nature of my own car (amplified by a loud track car stablemate!). But truly, wielding twin 3.8 M5s on track together, as diehard E34 addicts, was the real draw for us.

    A side note on viability of steering boxes
    ...this track car has the best steering feel (immediacy, zero slack, purity) I've ever felt. It completely negates any argument for an involved steering rack conversion, and we will be figuring out exactly what has been done to generate such epic feel.
    .
    .
    .
    Anywho, this event, while also BMWCCA (and primarily even the same chapter), had a few key differences from last time. Instruction was still lead-follow as the COVID situation was actually worse than in September. But certain rules were upheld this time, like helmet inspections and tow hooks.

    Here I am armed for battle, after getting so lucky the factory tow hook was still in my toolkit!



    And for whatever reason, we got a TON more drive time: 5 sessions per day, each 25min long. At the last event we had 4x per day of 20min, and believe you me, that felt like almost a day less driving. Saturday was beautiful, topping out just under 80F, and by lunch both CaneDVM and I had been sent in front of our instructors for them to follow us.

    The first time you do this is a combination of terrifying and thrilling, as you can shut off certain parts of your mind while following an experienced instructor deep into a still-unfamiliar corner, knowing that that instructor is more capable than you by skill and many times, machine - mine this weekend was in an absolute hero car for me, about the only modern M-car that intrigues me: a 1 series M with 75-80% of its mileage on track, lowered and stuffed with 18x10s and 285s square.

    By the second lap leading, you face down the fear as track memory and peripherals rise to the surface, and you can push deeper into corners, test braking later, etc. It's even more exhausting than following, though! After half or 3/4 of a session of leading (15-20min), we were ready to point our instructors by and get a refresher on all of our mistakes

    I found the JBR flywheel to make a noticeable difference in heel and toe shifting, but ironically the course configuration last weekend made it completely navigable in 3rd gear. In three spots, with the 3.91s we have, you would coast for maybe 1 full second around 7,000 rpm in 3rd before diving into the braking zone, and in the tightest segments, being in 2nd would have necessitated an awkward shift.

    It was still a valid shakedown for the new clutch setup, don't get me wrong! This was, according to our instructors, a ton of track time (they equated it to more per-day than you could hope for in a regular HPDE anywhere). By the 2nd day, my venerable PS4s were showing it, too!



    Interestingly, though there were 2nd gear corners at Hallett in Sept, I seemed to overwork my rear tires more this time out of pure grip. On Sunday, while leading my instructor, I had my biggest moment yet with overheated rears, getting a full dose of sideways lock before straightening it out! I fully recognize that 235-width, 300 treadwear tires are underkill here, for a 3700lb, 340hp car that can stuff bigger rubber, but that's the point right now: I want to learn to ring everything out of the car in a stock-ish configuration.

    The fronts took a real beating, and I'm now seeing what the internet warned me about, with street tires and zero camber: on Sunday, I lost the first small chunks out of the outer sidewall, driver front (see the top left of the tread in the photo below).



    My passenger front bore a lot less load due to course configuration, but also showed funny "flippers" on the water sipes. They look like little paddles!?



    I'll rotate these tires and do plan to have my camber plates installed for the next event down the road, so we'll see if that mitigates the wear.The PS4S have held up well and have lots of tread left, so if I feel they are getting too destroyed on track, I can retire them to street duty - I'm just trying to stop buying wheels and tires constantly, and I know the driver is a bigger limiting factor here

    Again there were almost no "old" cars, and even fewer than last time, really. Most cars there are E90 generation and up (and of course, no other 5 series!), which I sorta get, but there also seem to be regular mechanical failures of parts that either do not exist on our cars, or do not fail. I can't believe how many N54/N55s break their charge pipe on track!

    Then again, perhaps nickel and dime repairs on the moderns cars still don't add up to the potential damage of, say, an S38B38 throwing a rod on track (God forbid). We are just getting into this, so maybe we'll find out why so few these days track S38-powered cars; or maybe we'll find that the in-period success of these cars in areas like the Bathurst 12hr, IMSA, etc, were for very good reason!

    My instructor, Mr 1M, did have an E30 M3 for 11 years, and the last several years purely for track use. He went through five S14s, which we can hope is anecdotal and not representative of what to expect!

    This was really the last event for 5-6 months, so far planned, so now it's build time and drive time. I missed some good driving weather with the bad DMF this fall, so I will make up for lost time before I tear things down for a big suspension refresh!

    Last edited by BleedsBlue; 11-24-2020 at 12:51 PM.
    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  15. #65
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    BFE
    Posts
    11,090
    My Cars
    E34T
    I WANT THAT PATCH!

    As for the steerbox, I think their fundamental limitation is slop between the input shaft and the rack, which on ours isn't adjustable. I previously measured a box I'd describe as "medium-bad sloppy" at 1.24 degrees free play, another I'd describe as "almost half-decent" at 0.83 degrees. The latter is a spare I have sitting around that I'll eventually take apart to see what can be tightened. Hunch is that getting slop down to the 0.2-0.4 degree range will be enough. Bigger balls? Spring-loaded or adjustable variable-length ball tube? Shimming a few bearing surfaces? For headache and Ackerman curve reasons, staying with factory hardware is preferable to a rack conversion.

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,134
    My Cars
    e34 540ia/e32 740il
    I too want to know more info about that 'perfect' steering box. Is it just a matter of it being brand new or were modifications performed to the internals of the box to reduce input to output play?

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Tempe, AZ
    Posts
    7,658
    My Cars
    1995 525i/5
    I've always preferred the steering box to a rack, even if it's a sloppy steering box. Their mellow nature on the highway makes for a lovely cruiser, and when you're driving hard the on-center play isn't even noticeable. I recently took my 271k-mile 525i/5 on a twisty mountain drive with a group of other BMW enthusiasts in newer and faster cars, and while I was down on power in the straight portions I had no trouble keeping up with everyone in the turns, even on tired original suspension and steering components.

    Not sure why people are so resistant to tracking a 5 series... I guess it's the herd mentality of the 3 series being the obvious "track car."
    1995 525i 5-speed - Thread

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    2,765
    My Cars
    E34 M5, E36 M3, E90 M3
    Awesome read, thank you again for sharing.

    Glad to hear you like the JBR flywheel with the stock clutch setup. My dad's 75K miles '91 M5 needs a clutch job (worn throw out bearing) and I am trying to convince him into letting me install a JB flywheel while I am in there. Any downside at all? A little gear noise is fine. Has the clutch pedal feel changed at all? Any stiffer or softer? Sidenote: Could I use an E28 M30 single mass flywheel?

    Also, very interesting findings on the steering gear box on the other M5. Definitely interested to see what you find out.

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ATX
    Posts
    3,450
    My Cars
    Sundry old Grrrrmans
    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    I WANT THAT PATCH!
    We need to make more of those hats! We do envision using the design more, from stickers, to a la carte patches, to real flags. We sold out of the hats quickly and they have been well-received.

    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    As for the steerbox, I think their fundamental limitation is slop between the input shaft and the rack, which on ours isn't adjustable. I previously measured a box I'd describe as "medium-bad sloppy" at 1.24 degrees free play, another I'd describe as "almost half-decent" at 0.83 degrees. The latter is a spare I have sitting around that I'll eventually take apart to see what can be tightened. Hunch is that getting slop down to the 0.2-0.4 degree range will be enough. Bigger balls? Spring-loaded or adjustable variable-length ball tube? Shimming a few bearing surfaces? For headache and Ackerman curve reasons, staying with factory hardware is preferable to a rack conversion.
    Quote Originally Posted by m60power View Post
    I too want to know more info about that 'perfect' steering box. Is it just a matter of it being brand new or were modifications performed to the internals of the box to reduce input to output play?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannyzabolotny View Post
    I've always preferred the steering box to a rack, even if it's a sloppy steering box. Their mellow nature on the highway makes for a lovely cruiser, and when you're driving hard the on-center play isn't even noticeable.
    Obviously steering satisfaction is subjective, but for the purposes of this discussion we can focus on a simple slop-free goal. And we will dig into this track car to see if anything has been done (keep in mind, it could well be totally stock!)

    Moroza nailed why we will likely never design a steering rack swap, and Danny has a good point too. You don't notice on-center slack whilst caning one of these things in the corners

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyzabolotny View Post
    I recently took my 271k-mile 525i/5 on a twisty mountain drive with a group of other BMW enthusiasts in newer and faster cars, and while I was down on power in the straight portions I had no trouble keeping up with everyone in the turns, even on tired original suspension and steering components.

    Not sure why people are so resistant to tracking a 5 series... I guess it's the herd mentality of the 3 series being the obvious "track car."
    You guys have such a great group down there! The E34 is inherently balanced and super forgiveable, so I think it's a peach to drive fast and near the limit.

    And I'm guessing you are basically right re: herd mentality. Obviously, lighter is better, but that is not a black and white rule, particularly when you look into basic modifications that bring the two chassis closer together, given similar vintage, ie: E36 vs E34, E46 vs E39 (I realize 3 series and 5 series overlap generations, just drawing similarities here).

    For instance, I've been considering a future dedicated track car, as one does. I don't have the financial stones to throw tons of track days at this car, beyond several a year for testing Angry Ass parts: I can't afford to write it off, and it's honestly a bit of a unicorn (at least IMHO).

    So I've been playing devil's advocate on reasons not to track an E34 (particularly M5). I'd rather not step down into an E36 M3, despite my long-term love affair (a coupe was my first BMW), because mod for mod, an E36 is really not significantly more capable to justify the expense of a 2nd car/'90s M car.

    Looking at the E9x generation M3s, a very common site on track: these are now sometimes sub-$20k (with deferred maintenance, sure, but those cars are not hard to DIY). Apparently the internet has overblown the rod bearing nightmare, as I looked into it and those S65 cars are all over tracks in Europe as well (the most famous being the Team Schirmer GT Nurburgring cars). If you treat the rod bearings as a wear item, the cars are stout otherwise.

    A pre-facelift E90 M3 sedan (because I don't do coupes) is:
    ~3600#
    414hp @ 8300rpm
    295lb ft @ 3900rpm
    Can easily fit 265 square or 265/295 setup

    I don't have to tell you guys, but an early B38 M5 is:
    3750#
    340hp @ 6900rpm
    295lb ft @ 4750rpm
    Can easily fit 255 square or massaged 265/285 setup

    Sure I'm optimistic, and sure I run a company devoted to the E34 , but that gap can be closed easily - just 75hp and 150lbs?! And also sure, I'm glossing over all manner of BMW and BMW M improvements like chassis rigidity, suspension design, etc. But bear with me...

    I will weigh my car soon, but I don't run a spare, I have our LI battery conversion, and I have deleted most of SLS and the SAP. 3600# is already within reach, and I will soon have our carbon NA plenum (several more lbs) and post-header exhaust (50+ more lbs).

    It will be tough to ever catch the S65 with an NA S38 that doesn't cost your kid's college fund. Those V8s typically dyno between 340-350whp, and they respond REALLY well to basic bolt-on tuning. The B38, to its credit, has a deceptive peak torque number; in reality, they feel way torquier than a B36, and I read in a period test that the B38 makes 80% of peak torque from 2000-5000+ rpm!

    Our carbon plenum is not expected to increase performance on its own, but I've also got a Landzer B38 chip that is purported to actually increase power. I will be doing a before and after dyno of the chip because this is Angry Ass and we only believe hard data, otherwise I would have installed it already. I'll probably be lucky to top 300whp, which leaves me at a significant disadvantage to a bone-stock S65 still.

    Currently, these two cars cost about the same, and both need monitoring of rod bearings but are otherwise fairly sturdy (assuming 6 speed E90, btw). So on paper, the performance gap is still still not worth it to justify a 2nd car with a $20k minimum base entry price.

    Exercises like the above have been fun to consider mentally, but are confirming a desire to stick with the E34 (in some format) because I like being different, a perceived underdog, and it behooves our company to test and succeed with these cars! I'd love to chat with Condor and others who have campaigned E34s in more serious race series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johal E32 View Post
    Awesome read, thank you again for sharing.

    Glad to hear you like the JBR flywheel with the stock clutch setup. My dad's 75K miles '91 M5 needs a clutch job (worn throw out bearing) and I am trying to convince him into letting me install a JB flywheel while I am in there. Any downside at all? A little gear noise is fine. Has the clutch pedal feel changed at all? Any stiffer or softer? Sidenote: Could I use an E28 M30 single mass flywheel?

    Also, very interesting findings on the steering gear box on the other M5. Definitely interested to see what you find out.
    I'm very happy to! You find that writing updates is more self-motivational than anything

    I think there are downsides, yessir - at least with the sub-9# unit I picked. There was no change to my pedal feel, but keep in mind the B38s have a sensor on the clutch line and a mechanism to lighten the pedal. Pre- and post-JBR, my B38 clutch is a softer pedal than my B36, but did not change from the flywheel swap. Part of that may be due to using a sprung clutch again.

    The noise is not bothersome to me, but the most noticeable detractor for a daily will be in the reduction of driveline dampening. Pre-failure, this B38 car was measurably smoother in 1st gear crawling (in traffic, etc), partial throttle etc, which I attribute to a 3x heavier DMF. The JBR definitely likes more throttle, and will "kick back" more in crawling situations.

    That's all I can think of for now! I can't comment on the E28 flywheel, lacking knowledge, but a lot of these parts are interchangeable.
    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  20. #70
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    BFE
    Posts
    11,090
    My Cars
    E34T
    Quote Originally Posted by BleedsBlue View Post
    the B38s have a sensor on the clutch line and a mechanism to lighten the pedal.
    What's this?

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    40
    My Cars
    Too Many
    Another stellar summary of an epic weekend on track, made even better by the fact that we were both piloting E34 M5s this time. To Brent's point the steering in the track car is amazingly direct. I have minimal history on what all was done to the car for its German track prep, but we will try to figure out what magic is inside that steering box.

    There was a small show ("Burbles of Bavaria") put on by the Lone Star CCA chapter and in concert with some of the local groups at the same time as the HPDE, that allowed attendees to take their car on a couple of parade laps. I brought out my new-to-me '91 Alpina BiTurbo for the show; naturally Brent and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to take it around the track , even if not at full speed. Regardless the power delivery on that car is amazing. I won't hi-jack Brent's thread any further; should probably start my own at some point to chronicle my E34 addiction.

    Brian
    Attached Images Attached Images

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ATX
    Posts
    3,450
    My Cars
    Sundry old Grrrrmans
    ^No highjack occurred, oh Captain my Captain. I just didn't want to steal your thunder on that car! Despite the slugs in our way on that parade lap (lol), the couple spurts of WOT in the Alpina are seared into my brainbox.

    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    What's this?
    I'll admit we have yet to really research this, and I may be conflating the B38 sensor "switch" (see below) with the oft-quoted line on MRegistry and other reliable sources about post-1991 M5s: "reduced-effort clutch". MRegistry notes this for both US and ROW 1992+ MYs, and but I don't think 1992-93 US cars have the switch.

    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    45,770
    My Cars
    BMWs
    Nice synopsis on the HPDE.

    Imagine a 500 lb lighter car with 800 HP lol. These are my struggles.

    Good stuff as usual.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Campbell, Tx
    Posts
    124
    My Cars
    1995 530i, 1995 540i
    Quote Originally Posted by CaneDVM View Post
    Another stellar summary of an epic weekend on track, made even better by the fact that we were both piloting E34 M5s this time. To Brent's point the steering in the track car is amazingly direct. I have minimal history on what all was done to the car for its German track prep, but we will try to figure out what magic is inside that steering box.

    There was a small show ("Burbles of Bavaria") put on by the Lone Star CCA chapter and in concert with some of the local groups at the same time as the HPDE, that allowed attendees to take their car on a couple of parade laps. I brought out my new-to-me '91 Alpina BiTurbo for the show; naturally Brent and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to take it around the track , even if not at full speed. Regardless the power delivery on that car is amazing. I won't hi-jack Brent's thread any further; should probably start my own at some point to chronicle my E34 addiction.

    Brian
    So you're the unicorn car that was on the local BMW FB group page! Such an amazing machine. Makes me happy to see it lives in Texas.

    Quote Originally Posted by BleedsBlue View Post
    Oh, nice! Was the video from the Burbles of Bavaria or the driving itself? Assuming the former, which is still cool. We just didn't have much time to check out the show!
    It was a just a little snippit of it from an in car video at the event someone had uploaded rounding the track. Still great to see it on there. Look forward to more pictures and hopefully some videos of your track experiences. I will have to live vicariously through you for a while until I can actually make time to prep one of mine for track duty.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    ATX
    Posts
    3,450
    My Cars
    Sundry old Grrrrmans
    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    Nice synopsis on the HPDE.

    Imagine a 500 lb lighter car with 800 HP lol. These are my struggles.

    Good stuff as usual.
    Thanks! And I can imagine, all too easily. I want your struggles!

    Half of the danger of HPDEs is the addiction of driving at pace itself, the other half is the inevitable planning of endless upgrades that ensues A vicious cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by consti2tion View Post
    So you're the unicorn car that was on the local BMW FB group page! Such an amazing machine. Makes me happy to see it lives in Texas.
    The power delivery of that car was a revelation.

    Quote Originally Posted by consti2tion View Post
    It was a just a little snippit of it from an in car video at the event someone had uploaded rounding the track. Still great to see it on there. Look forward to more pictures and hopefully some videos of your track experiences. I will have to live vicariously through you for a while until I can actually make time to prep one of mine for track duty.
    Very cool! We do have some older Go Pros that I just need to setup, acquire mounts, and get mic-ed. Thankfully (see below), there was a track photog after all!

    One of the takeaways for me after these two events is that people overestimate the level of track prep needed, generally speaking. Safety is one thing: I can safely say I checked every nut and bolt, and visually inspected or tested all safety items prior to driving on track. But my front suspension and dog bones are totally shot, I was on a weird combo of H&R rear spring, mystery OEM ride height front springs, OEM BMW discs and rotors, etc etc etc. I just put in nice brake fluid.

    Granted, you will break more things on a car on track, but you don't need coil overs, a race seat, etc to either have a great time, or put down lap times. The car just needs a baseline of safety and general reliability, and you're good to go!

    A photo sniper got me!
    I was mistaken, there was a photographer at the track! Lightspeed Images nailed it, these are very good. This is just a photo dump, but more updates are coming soon.

    I wear those rock chips and windscreen bugs with pride








    Follow...



    Lead...


    I LIKE how these brakes fill the wheels, especially considering these are our smaller street-focused brakes...





    Rollin' rollin' rollin'


    This feels a lot more dramatic in-car than it looks here. I'm hopeful the H&R front springs will reduce this...


    This is day 2, mid-morning, leading my instructor - about as hard as I pushed all weekend, resulting in my big moment from overcooking the corner or my tires...

    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-18-2012, 03:41 AM
  2. Is the new E60 545i and forthcoming M5 to high in price?
    By NoSoup4U in forum 1988 - 1996 (E34)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-03-2003, 08:01 PM
  3. Looking for 850i or 92 M5
    By Infernal_Halo in forum Southeastern - US
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-24-2003, 10:55 AM
  4. New Pics of My Intake, M5 Fog Lights, 8000 K HID
    By iforged in forum 1995 - 2001 (E38)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-20-2003, 09:57 PM
  5. FS: 92 M5 Euro in California
    By jtappan in forum BMW Parts For Sale
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-05-2001, 07:49 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •