The new BleedsBlue moneypit: GD62389 '92 M5 3.8

[BleedsBlue]

Hey… look at the bright side. Your Sodium levels are spot on!!!


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So many optimists It is appreciated though, truly.

COTA done
Herein lies the obligatory photodump proving I went to COTA. It was incredibly expensive and crowded (though I'm told, less of either than with other clubs), but even though I had a mechanical retirement (!!!) end of the first day, I can honestly say it was totally worth it. This ended up costing me $12 a minute in track time

To skip the suspense, in the last afternoon session on Saturday, a totally new symptom appeared on my outlap - that of slipping clutch over 50% throttle. Given my recent clutch, I doubt it is an actual clutch issue, and I have some theories - but rest assured the transmission seems fine, engine solid, etc. Onto the details...

Both days were a high of 104-106F, and the nice morning breeze and cooler temps completely abated by lunchtime each day. Most run groups got 2x morning sessions and 2x afternoon, of 25min each. The afternoon sessions were high 90s already. Lots of water, tire management, and cool down laps were in order. Our weekend (CaneDVM and I of course) was more expensive than most, as we reserved spots in the garages - aka, mufuggin' F1 pits. That was cool and all, but at a certain point the shade was worth a billion dollars by itself.

On a previous track day near Fort Worth, I mentioned that my car was one of the cheaper ones there - well go figure in inflated Austin, at the purported most expensive track in the country...there were not many cars either slower or cheaper than my old thing.

Not pictured: 718 GT4 as our other garage-mate


Come to find out, Intermediate had sold out because a lot of Advanced drivers attending had never driven COTA and wanted an instructor; so the spread in Intermediate was pretty wide, and on 200TW tires in an old boat, I was definitely not at the sharp end of that curve. There were I think x4 F82s with aero and slicks (all white, somehow?) in our group, to set the tone. But because this was run by a couple solid organizations, things went very smoothly. I even drew an instructor I've had before that I really jive with, he of heavily tracked BMW 1M fame. On this weekend he took his 8,000 mile M2 CS manual. Legend?! I've driven an M2 Comp but the CS felt like another animal...

Anywho, the only changes for this track weekend were 9" rear wheels (same 255 Falkens) instead of 10", and fresh Redline D4 in the 280. The car shifted better than before (as one would hope, lol), and did not overheat at all. Nor did I experience a hint of brake fade in those 25min sessions, in which I would touch 130mph indicated on the back straight before a true threshold deceleration into Turn 12, which is about the tightest (2nd gear) turn on the track. Goooo team Ferodo 2500 + RBF600.

I was able to drive the car home easily, so that's great, but both in the pits after my failed session, and back at home, the car dumped a cup or two of oil from the bellhousing. It's possible my RMS failed (since I didn't replace that when we did the clutch, because it was dry) and coated the clutch, but we'll have to see when I get it on stands and pull the trans in this 100F+ summer.

Ok, now for the proof.

The money shot


Funny how when driven in anger, you don't ever see that tower from the car on track

[m60power]

Awesome photos!!! That looks like a ton of fun. Hopefully your clutch issue is just a rear main seal failure, and not some more difficult to solve problem. Although you'll still need to replace the disc if it soaked up a bunch of oil.

[a777fan]

Damn. Yes. The photos alone were worth the fees.


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[BleedsBlue]

Awesome photos!!! That looks like a ton of fun. Hopefully your clutch issue is just a rear main seal failure, and not some more difficult to solve problem. Although you'll still need to replace the disc if it soaked up a bunch of oil.

Man, I'm glad you said something! You're absolutely right and I was spacing that. Thankfully one can buy the friction disc separately, so I'll plan to have one of them on hand with my other spares/replacements (slave, TOB, potentially an entire transmission lol). Thanks, for real.

Damn. Yes. The photos alone were worth the fees.


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Haha, I appreciate it! There is a reason the regular COTA-goers are all rich Austinites in GT3s, though.

Your ambers were for sure the *chef's kiss* this car needed for contrast on the Diamantschwarz. Very happy we swapped.

[a777fan]

Man, I'm glad you said something! You're absolutely right and I was spacing that. Thankfully one can buy the friction disc separately, so I'll plan to have one of them on hand with my other spares/replacements (slave, TOB, potentially an entire transmission lol). Thanks, for real.



Haha, I appreciate it! There is a reason the regular COTA-goers are all rich Austinites in GT3s, though.

Your ambers were for sure the *chef's kiss* this car needed for contrast on the Diamantschwarz. Very happy we swapped.

Me too! The clears just keep my back to that butt…

[5mall5nail5]

Smoked clears tho

[circuit.heart]

Man, everyone always comes back from COTA beaming, I really want to go if not for how freaking long that trek is.

[BleedsBlue]

Maintenance bump - not on the car, but on the thread

As I expected, life has gotten in the way and the car is still sitting in the garage on the tender, getting started up every few weeks to keep the oil light at bay. Based on my lazy diagnosis so far, I'm counting on doing an RMS and some other while-I'm-in-theres, as the weather gets nicer outside and I get some house projects finished.

Hope everyone is well - it's been quieter around here on the longer build threads.

[BleedsBlue]

I guess this thing only broke this summer, but it feels like an age since I got to drive it! After multitudes of other projects (mainly house, basket case DD, etc), I finally had a temperate and lazy afternoon to crack on this poor thing.

This time, I had to engage Operation M5 Aeroplane in the little (though deep) one car garage at my house, sans lift.



I'm no Danny Z, but having done this regrettably not long before with the new clutch and JBR, I soon wrestled the drippy trans onto the floor and assessed the damage. Quite a mess...



This photo does not capture it, but this clutch disc was black as night from the oil



If you'll recall (and following Dane's recent advice, before he gave it), the RMS was bone dry when I installed this clutch and the JBR, so even though I had new parts for it on the shelf - I left it alone. I wish it was more obvious where the leak or failure is, but the oil bath on the block is comprehensive, and everything from the Bentley to The Entire Internet thinks the type of leak I have has to be RMS. I'll crack on that.



Since I spied a decent leak on this out of focus (sorry) oil return tube, and can access it a bit better now than with the trans in place, I'm going to replace the o-ring and gasket for it, too. This is a good bit north of the bell housing, but it is in line with a hole in the housing, and I'm not interested in taking chances with another new clutch plate @ $165 a pop.



I can't think of any other oil leak (nor, could I see any) that could so thoroughly soak my clutch in oil, so it's RMS time and oil return R&R; new clutch disc; a thorough cleaning of the pressure plate and JBR, plus new hardware. Since I spaced it last time, and cursed my forgetfulness every drive, I'm also replacing or upgrading ever shift linkage part this time around.

I have some goodies on the shelf I've been wanting to install, but first I need to get this thing drivable again, in hopes of another track day before the holiday break. Maybe this is as simple as a new disc and RMS, but I'm not convinced yet and not eager to add more complication. I'll keep the thread updated.

[dannyzabolotny]

Props for doing all that on your back... I pulled exactly one transmission on my back at the shop (Kurtis' old blue car when he nuked the clutch) before immediately going out and purchasing a lift. I'm spoiled now, haha.

Based on all that oil it's pretty safe to say you had an RMS leak. Are you going to replace the RMS flange gasket too? Hard to say if it's leaking, but it would be silly not to. Just be careful to not damage the oil pan gasket if you do choose to replace that gasket.

[BleedsBlue]

Props for doing all that on your back... I pulled exactly one transmission on my back at the shop (Kurtis' old blue car when he nuked the clutch) before immediately going out and purchasing a lift. I'm spoiled now, haha.

Based on all that oil it's pretty safe to say you had an RMS leak. Are you going to replace the RMS flange gasket too? Hard to say if it's leaking, but it would be silly not to. Just be careful to not damage the oil pan gasket if you do choose to replace that gasket.

From you - I take that as a compliment, truly. On the same token, don't think I am not dying to build a garage mahal with a lift And I have to say, when working alone and without fancy supporting tools (mainly, a trans jack), it's easier to drop the exhaust as one piece on your back versus standing - last time, while working on a lift, I had to balance that 100+ lb 9 foot long behemoth on my head.

I'm also relieved you agree w/ the RMS diagnosis. It makes sense, I just expected a more buggered up seal, visually (although I also know they often don't even leak with the engine running in neutral; it needs a load).

Anywho, I have an RMS flange gasket to go in as well, so I plan to do that (plus I did read that sometimes that is another leak culprit). It looks like a trick with releasing that gasket is to use a sharp knife to separate from the oil pan gasket. I already have to do a surprise pan on the DD soon, so believe you me, I am NOT messing this one up and committing to do two oil pans in the next year...

[danespann]

Anywho, I have an RMS flange gasket to go in as well, so I plan to do that (plus I did read that sometimes that is another leak culprit). It looks like a trick with releasing that gasket is to use a sharp knife to separate from the oil pan gasket. I already have to do a surprise pan on the DD soon, so believe you me, I am NOT messing this one up and committing to do two oil pans in the next year...

Black RTV is your friend on this one, especially if you end up messing up the oil pan gasket on that edge. Good luck

[93FIM5]

Great work man, maybe I can squeeze a trip in to come down and help.

-Greg

[BleedsBlue]

@Dane / @DannyZ, where did we land on the replacement (or not) of RMS if they aren't leaking yet? 118k miles. Spoiler alert: I think I figured out why, when the clutch started slipping at COTA in this car, @CaneDVM and I smelled strong ATF...

Been having a baby and stuff
Five weeks old, all good, but I am tired. So, things sat for a few after I tore down, which turned out to be a brilliant strategy. You'll recall (photo above/last page), I found a puddle in my 280 - still suspecting RMS failure, even though the RMS itself looked pretty decent. Well, I cleaned up that puddle entirely, only to come back 2...ok almost 3 months later to the project - the puddle had returned.

Obviously, the trans itself needs some seals. I'm looking at those now, and would like to do everything while I'm in there.

This was after the second puddle clean-up, but I found a lot of tell-tale seepage and drips behind the shifter arm, etc


I'm still going to attack a few oil leaks, since I know for a fact this car has at least one major one - at MSR Cresson last spring/early summer, it was dumping enough on the top of my midpipe to get a little smokey in the 20min sessions. But, I am torn on this seal, which still bears the BMW stamping. I've never done one before, or really looked at a failed one - are you supposed to be able to see a little daylight between the crank hub and the seal? It could be an optional delusion, I suppose...

It may not come thru in this crappy photo, but I swear the seal is not actually touching the hub? Maybe that's normal


RMS sexperts advice appreciated
Since I've got to order parts now (including a stubby 5mm allen key to replace the oil return tube gasket + o-ring; I'd cut down a 5mm bit but those somehow keep going missing ), I started looking at my other while-I'm-in-theres. Namely, shifter bushing refresh, which has been the last real, ugly slop left in this car. Also, my shift knobs have always sat lower than I'd like, so I figured I had a Z3 knob or some such in there.

Yep. I hate how short it is, so I'm going back to stock since I'm not really into SSKs.

I've actually got workspace now, but this Yeti cooler was a good hammering surface


Am I the only one (probably) that gets my ass kicked by those little shift lever ball bushings in the carrier arm? Maybe it's a reflection of how neglected the cars I buy always are, but I can only get them to turn a little and then end up hammering and chipping them out EVERY time...

Anywho, I have everything in hand to rebuild this stuff, save a new lever and a rear carrier solution that I like. I had bought a delrin insert for the OEM rear carrier bracket, but my bracket is in bad shape, so I will either go OEM or buy an aftermarket poly unit (I've read mixed reviews on the harder durometer rear bushings, especially with OEM engine/trans mounts?). I've got an ancient UUC DSSR to install and try not to break, and delrin front carrier arm bushings. This will tighten up nicely.

Time to order parts and then clean the bejeezus out of everything, since I'm hoping to get things buttoned up and the new clutch disc broken in by late May at the latest for a BMWCCA HPDE.

[danespann]

Hi Brent, congrats on the new kid. Definitely understandable you haven't had time to devote to the car.

That RMS looks fairly fine. The bit of seal you're seeing is more of a dust boot; the actual sealing happens further in where the spring pushes the seal against the crank. If you decide to replace, make sure both of the alignment dowels for the plate are still there.

Without a PN, its difficult to tell, but that looks like a z3 shift lever you've removed, which would explain the knob sitting low. I find the OEM 525i nv zf shift lever gives a nice slightly shorter throw while keeping the shifter factory e34 height inside the car. Plus its cheap.
The 545 lever will make the knob sit pretty low low and make for extremely short throws when paired with a getrag.

Love the Turner rear carrier, its a soft-ish material and doesn't squeak or anything on my car. I have delrin front carrier bushings and soft trans mounts paired with it.

[m60power]

As for shift lever choice - I would advise against getting the E60 550i 'short' shifter (p/n 25117546373), I don't know know how physically tall the upper portion of the lever is, but the throw distance is way too short in my opinion. Of course this will vary slightly depending on the actual throw distance between gears at the shift knuckle of a given transmission...

The E60 545i 'regular' shifter is a decent choice (p/n 25117527261). I ran this one for a while and it's nice and tall but the shift throws between gears still weren't quite as long as I'd like, so after a couple years of that shifter I switched to the Z8 shifter (p/n 25117527260) which is ideal for me paired with the 420g trans.

Here's a table of some shift lever dimensions (incomplete) I had compiled some time ago:

shiftlevers.JPG

I use the stock rubber bushings on the front end of the shift carrier arm and the turner rear carrier mount with poly bushing and it has worked great; no noticeable noises or unwanted stiffness / harshness.

[BleedsBlue]

You guys rock - you caught my mistake before I could ninja-edit (have done now), but an E60 lever would obviously not help! Duh.

Hi Brent, congrats on the new kid. Definitely understandable you haven't had time to devote to the car.

That RMS looks fairly fine. The bit of seal you're seeing is more of a dust boot; the actual sealing happens further in where the spring pushes the seal against the crank. If you decide to replace, make sure both of the alignment dowels for the plate are still there.

Without a PN, its difficult to tell, but that looks like a z3 shift lever you've removed, which would explain the knob sitting low. I find the OEM 525i nv zf shift lever gives a nice slightly shorter throw while keeping the shifter factory e34 height inside the car. Plus its cheap.
The 545 lever will make the knob sit pretty low low and make for extremely short throws when paired with a getrag.

Love the Turner rear carrier, its a soft-ish material and doesn't squeak or anything on my car. I have delrin front carrier bushings and soft trans mounts paired with it.

Thanks Dane! And for your comments on the RMS, as well. I think I will go ahead and do it while I have things apart, and perhaps try and seat it further back as I've seen recommended to prevent sitting in the old groove on the crank.

I did clean off the old knob and confirm it's a Z3 unit, actually. And I will go with one of those poly rear carriers - I think I had just read not to mix delrin with OEM engine/trans mounts. Thanks again.

As for shift lever choice - I would advise against getting the E60 550i 'short' shifter (p/n 25117546373), I don't know know how physically tall the upper portion of the lever is, but the throw distance is too short in my opinion. Of course this will vary slightly depending on the actual throw distance between gears at the shift knuckle of a given transmission...

The E60 545i 'regular' shifter is a decent choice (p/n 25117527261). I ran this one for a while and it's nice and tall but the shift throws between gears still weren't quite as long as I'd like, so after a couple years of that shifter I switched to the Z8 shifter (p/n 25117527260) which is ideal for me paired with the 420g trans.

Here's a table of some shift lever dimensions (incomplete) I had compiled some time ago:

shiftlevers.JPG

Good call for sure - that was a sleepless idea I had

Very useful table there!

[circuit.heart]

Mmmm baby-induced sleep deprivation. Can't wait.

For the record, mixing Delrin engine/trans mounts with anything is bad. The extra strain on any remaining rubber mounts is multiplied (how to break stock mounts) and if you have all solids, the extra vibrations can fatigue and break aluminum crossmembers and engine mount arms. But the shifter carrier can be as stiff as you want, it's just holding the carrier.

Far as short shifters go, I've become an unabashed fan of the cheap blue eBay unit. Either JB Weld the cup into the carrier or find something better than the provided C-clip, but the 1-piece lever gives great gearbox feel and the geometry is short without being too short (I'm using mine with a notchy E39 Getrag). It feels halfway between a factory shifter and an S2000, which at least to me is the gold standard.

[dannyzabolotny]

Hey Brent! Glad to see you're still around, haha. Replace your leaky seals and get that M5 back on the road asap, gotta have something fun to drive.

[BleedsBlue]

Mmmm baby-induced sleep deprivation. Can't wait.

It's coming for you. I wish on you a good sleeper, because it seems largely luck of the draw

For the record, mixing Delrin engine/trans mounts with anything is bad. The extra strain on any remaining rubber mounts is multiplied (how to break stock mounts) and if you have all solids, the extra vibrations can fatigue and break aluminum crossmembers and engine mount arms. But the shifter carrier can be as stiff as you want, it's just holding the carrier.

Far as short shifters go, I've become an unabashed fan of the cheap blue eBay unit. Either JB Weld the cup into the carrier or find something better than the provided C-clip, but the 1-piece lever gives great gearbox feel and the geometry is short without being too short (I'm using mine with a notchy E39 Getrag). It feels halfway between a factory shifter and an S2000, which at least to me is the gold standard.

Good points about the shifter carrier vs actual engine/transmission mounts - but since my rear carrier bracket was so crusty anyway, and Turner was having a sale on the Garagistic poly rear mount (so it was cheaper than @ Garagistic...), I went for one of those.

Various Hondas are also absolutely my gold standard for shifting feel. If you know, you know.

That said, this car has so much stock still, in terms of components that control "feel", "throw", "input" etc - I just want to try a stock shifter with all new stuff. In your car with all the custom, race-focused mods, I bet a stock throw (and length) would feel a bit out of place.

Hey Brent! Glad to see you're still around, haha. Replace your leaky seals and get that M5 back on the road asap, gotta have something fun to drive.

I'm not going anywhere, baby!

I am missing the car terribly, even though I feel like as I knock things off The List, new things just regenerate. Cue Dane's quote below...

[circuit.heart]

That said, this car has so much stock still, in terms of components that control "feel", "throw", "input" etc - I just want to try a stock shifter with all new stuff. In your car with all the custom, race-focused mods, I bet a stock throw (and length) would feel a bit out of place.

Oh the eBay shifter is in my otherwise stock E39 lol. I just think the factory shifter is too isolating, which is hard to daily drive because the Getrag gates aren't exactly crisp.

[BleedsBlue]

Oh the eBay shifter is in my otherwise stock E39 lol. I just think the factory shifter is too isolating, which is hard to daily drive because the Getrag gates aren't exactly crisp.

HAHA went the total wrong direction with that ASSumption - blame the new dad brainfog, I know what setup you have in the racecar.

You know... I'm beginning to become not the biggest fan of Getrag transmissions in general.

[BleedsBlue]

You know... I'm beginning to become not the biggest fan of Getrag transmissions in general.

Well that was prescient. More on this later.

Losing my marbles
After waiting for some parts to show, plus you know, keeping an infant alive, I got back to it. Because I'm brilliant, I ended up having insulation blown into my attic in the midst, which means I had to get the M5 down from airplane mode in my garage (an attic access point is located there) and push it around, with my poor wife trying to wrestle the steering. This became more of an issue when it came time to get the car back in the air, because I've gotten used to driving up on Race Ramps (bought cheap & used on CL - but they don't wear out!) to give my jack more room. Anywho...got the car back in the air in the driveway this time.

I started with pulling the old rear main seal plate off, after draining the oil. This Motul had under 3,000 miles on it, but almost all of that was track time, and it was ~2 years old to boot. I did not grab a Blackstone from this batch, but the last few have been groovy, so I'll pick that back up next time.

Despite following Dane's advice and using a razor blade to attempt separating the seal plate from the oil pan gasket, the right hand pan gasket tab came out (tore) with the plate. Thanks to Dane and Danny's recent M30 RMS escapades, I had good advice to follow and RTV-ed things back in place.

The closer I looked, the more tired this seal looked. I get why it was leaking


I've gotten better about cleaning parts when I replace seals and consumables, but I'm dying to get a parts blaster for things like this... Anywho, OEM plate gasket and RMS installed, along with the "RTV" I had handy, which I use on my '05 Tundra and has pretty stellar reviews for all purpose gasket stuff.



The manual recommended pressing the new seal deeper into the plate to account for a potential crankshaft hub groove. I couldn't feel a groove whatsoever, but went ahead and seated the new seal about 1-2mm deeper. Trying to show that in this photo...

To think that I cleaned and scrubbed this plate for 10+ min... I NEED A PARTS BLASTER


With the handy plastic insert doing the job of seating the (pre-oiled) seal on the crank, I RTV-ed the appropriate areas and popped the seal back on.

I was wary of leaving too much gasket-maker hanging out - never a good idea


My next task was to address the suspected leak at the oil return pipe, slightly more accessible without the trans in place. I had the parts for this, but realized I needed an even smaller H5 allen key to make this work. Enter Amazon 1/4" drive special:



The old part came out easy, thankfully, and cleaned up better than the RMS plate.

Apologies for inconsistent lighting/conditions. This took place over random times of day


Interestingly, there was no o-ring on the pipe when I removed it. I found an o-ring p/n on RealOEM, so I installed one, but not sure how important it is in this application. This pipe was a lot easier to remove than it was to install, having to line up the gasket with the bolts. But here's the shiny bastard back in place:



Now going out of order from real life, slightly. I deep-cleaned the JBR flywheel, minus the friction surface (will do that with specialty products later), cleaned the bolts etc. I was tired of jerry-rigging screwdrivers and other methods of holding the flywheel in place while torquing the bolts, so after some late night googling, bought this VW/Porsche flywheel locking tool for $17. The old forum posts I found had it under $10, but that's probably an inflation thing due to the age of the posts. There are probably even cheaper ones, but I didn't look hard enough.



I'm not sure if the tool would work without modification on OEM flywheels, but the JBR starter ring is quite narrow, so I had to grind some of the teeth off for this to fit the JBR. Once done, it worked a charm!

I'll clean up those grinder cuts later


All torqued up - thankfully the JBR bolts can be reused


Also out of order, I installed my cleaned up selector shaft with a new OEM E34 shift lever (which was cheaper than anything I could find used!), new shift lever insulation, and ball cup bushing. I also installed the Garagistic poly rear shift carrier mount, which necessitated more grinding - to get rid of the little ears on the back end of the selector shaft.



Turns out COTA was more expensive than I thought...
Again this is out of order; I actually went to replace the suspected leaky input shaft seal before I installed the flywheel and shifter. The input shaft plate popped off easily, revealing le carnage.

That's not good


On closer inspection: Ho Lee Fuk

That's my input shaft bearing outer seal plate, NBD


I not only lost my marbles, they split into pieces. I split my marbles



Eerily, this is exactly the most common G280 failure that Metric Mechanic cites on their website. With ~117k miles, I'm sure this transmission went a long time with low fluid - and some idiot only flushed and refilled with fresh fluid AFTER ~10 track days. The potential bright spot is that A) the transmission would easily shift into every gear post-failure, and stay in gear, and B) the bearing backing plate stayed in place - so I am fairly confident no big bits slipped into the casing.

Still...what a mess


This photo did not turn out, but in person this towel was glittery AF


So I'm now left with a seemingly healthy G280, but with only the inner and outer input shaft bearing races in place. Some pretty deep searching indicates what most E28/34 M5 owners already know, which is that rebuilding support for these transmissions is nonexistent. Furthering the complication, I found that the input shaft bearing changed between E28 M5, S38B36, and S38B38. Thankfully, M5Board and RealOEM confirmed the size of bearing my transmission should take, so I'm looking at an aftermarket, 8000rpm rated bearing.

The hope is that I can use a puller to remove the inner and outer races without splitting the case, but if not - I'm not opposed to splitting the case as it will give me a chance to assess potential further damage. Plus, there are just not many good options to get the car back on the road, otherwise!

Anywho, knowing that I had some research, praying, and parts ordering to do, I had to give up and get the car ready to push around. This is why I installed the flywheel (to start the car and gain power steering) and shifter w/ insulation (to plug that interior hole from critters in my driveway). I also installed the exhaust, so I wouldn't attract even more attention pushing the thing around, lol.

I now have a (IMHO) very attractive yard ornament. I still love this car, and look forward to caning it again soon. I also noticed a huge PS pump leak and shot engine mounts while under the car. E34 things.

More to come once I determine a plan. Any and all ideas welcome!

[a777fan]

Whoa.

You’re telling me that thing shifted and held gears aok? No grinding noises or other funkiness?

Parts blasters are messy and unless your Sreten, expensive.

Go on amazon and get yourself the largest ultrasonic cleaner you can fit in your space. Then get a couple of gallons of Simple Green Extreme (which is safe for aluminum) and go to town. Your parts wont come out looking polished, but they will be clean. Very clean.

[theBMWbeast]

Will add to the mix, a soda blaster. Got it for 100? Something at Harbor Freight. Soda is very forgiving/easy compared to traditional sand blasting. I use it to prep aluminum parts, although works on harder mediums with different levels of soda.





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