Member
Hi Guys,
Background.I installed new guides, rebuilt vanos from vanosman, new tensioners and oil separator and other stuff on my '03 540i Msport which I've had for 14 years. I got the car buttoned up and got a P0021 after revving it up. I posted on here and got some really good advice from @JimLev on how to tackle it.
However, after playing with Bank 2 and the timing wheel without dropping the code, I decided to go back and retime the car. There were no red flags when pulling it apart other than bank 2 the intake cam lock block didn't drop right in. There were a number of theories about what could have gone wrong, but again nothing obvious. This time, I made sure the there was no risk of there being slack in the chain. Used zip ties when dropping the Upper timing covers back on. I also made sure those vanos gears were held CCW when locking the cam bolt in. (They were before so that wasn't the issue) Cranked it over by hand and made sure the timing wheels match up (or at least I though they did). Then I fired it up and got P0011 and P0021. I've made it worse not better, but thought I did this correctly. As you can imagine my patience is being tested to the point, where I have to not touch it for long periods of time to motivate myself to jump back in. I've read every single post on this, even the the older ones which were pre GAS tool usage. Including this one: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...eed-Help/page2
Here is a video of the current state: https://youtu.be/EDh8kH5UzwY
Are those cams all off far enough to cause this code?
The good news is the coil packs, valve covers and oilers can all come off the car in under an hour, so I'm getting faster.
Thanks in everyone,
Tim
Last edited by timpnw; 01-21-2020 at 01:38 PM.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Was the flywheel lock pin in the whole time when you did the timing?
P0011 cam timing out of spec with vanos off (over advance bank 1)
P0021 cam timing out of spec with vanos off (over advance bank 2)
Looks like you used the GAS tools. I don't have those.
The pin thru the upper cover hole isn't that accurate.
Did you rotate the center part of the vanos back and forth to get all the oil to squirt out so they were fully retarded?
Member
1. Yes - The flywheel lock pin has been in during all timing procedure.
2. Yes - I'm now getting those both of codes now.
P0011 cam timing out of spec with vanos off (over advance bank 1)
P0021 cam timing out of spec with vanos off (over advance bank 2)
3. Yes. GAS tools.
4. Yes. The vanos were rebuilt so the oil was out of them. They were set full to full rotated back and forth and the second time I did it I held them to be sure, but when I removed the cam bolt, they were fully retarded to the CCW position so that wasn't the issue.
As you can see, I've got those timing covers seated down. When I did it the first time, I didn't use a zip tie after doing the timing, and I thought that might have been the culprit, so I was sure to suck up the tensioner when locking down the bolts. In theory based upon what I showed in the video, not being able to set the the intake and exhaust blocks down perfectly... are the cams out of spec or should they be "close enough"? It's really frustrating when there is not something obvious going on.
Member
Did you measure the continuity when you set the vanos fully retarded CCW?
If the cam locking tool cannot seat properly, I would suggest that you loose the cams nuts, have the cams locked correctly and re-time again.
Member
@thewalkinator - Thanks for the reply. I was not able to achieve continuity on them on the original install. I wasn't too worried since they were rebuilt with the beysian gaskets and they say at first install continuity is not likely. That said, I held them CCW at their respective stops.
If you can see the video, the GAS intake cams are really close.... the exhaust cams close but not as close.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Most of the vanos/timing jobs I've done the vanos didn't read continuity. It's nothing to worry about as long as you know they are fully retarded. Did you have any play at all on the drivers side of the chain? It needs to be tight.
What procedure did you follow to do the timing? Mine?
The bank 2 cam lock blocks should drop right on. Bank 1 will require you to turn the intake cam to get the lock block on.
Member
@jimlev - No play in that chain at all... It's really tight. I made sure of it the second time. I definitely watched your video a few times. I read all the guides but most followed the GAS tool kit instructions with references to Beysian. I've done it twice now headed in to a third these weekend.
The question really is; Are the tolerances that tight? Meaning there is no room for error.
You can see in the video, Bank 2 Intake is really close, but not perfect, and you can see the Bank 2 Exhaust along with Bank 1 Exhaust are just off ever so slightly. Bank 1 Intake always goes in, because of it's forward rotation at TDC.
If the answer is these cams need to be dead on perfect after pulling the cam blocks and retesting, then I have to figure out a better way to lock it all down and make sure those blocks slide back on... not button it up until it's does exactly that.
If the answer is there is room for some of these tolerances, and I should be OK, then I need to start looking at other things.
I'm leaning toward that I need to make sure all cam blocks go on perfectly.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Yes, the cam blocks for bank 2 need to drop on and be flush with the back of the head.
Bank 1 will need to have the intake cam turned to get the block on. The block for the exhaust cam should drop on.
IIRC the error that will cause a code is ~5°.
I see in your video that the nuts weren't on the GAS blocks, were they on when you tightened the center cam bolts and did you also hold the cams with a 27mm wrench will torqueing those cam bolts?
I think you'll need to pin the crank at TDC (on the compression stroke) remove the upper covers, loosen the cam bolts, reset the cams so the blocks drop on, then set the trigger wheels....etc.
Member
@jimlev - Yes. I couldn't seat the GAS blocks all the way. Grrr. I'll go with that has to be perfect and I won't put the covers on until I get there.
and yes, they were on when I tightened it down. I even did a 30lb tighten and then spun it by hand and checked the cams before the final torque settings. I thought i had it... but what we are all saying is close enough may not be good enough. Also, I used an open end wrench to lock those down.
I'm going to tear those covers off probably this weekend. I'll keep you guys posted as the engagement on this forum is one of the things that keeps me going.
Really appreciate it!
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Are you saying you turned the engine over with the cam bolts only tightened to 30ft-lbs?Originally Posted by timpnw
If so, that could account for the cams/vanos slightly slipping. The cam bolts need to be torqued to the final setting before you turn the engine over by hand to check if everything is still lined up OK.
Member
Good info... I re-timed today, locked it down to full torque specs before turning it. When testing, I was finally able to get both exhaust cams to line up with the GAS tools after a few rotations at TDC. They were perfect, unlike my original video
Question though about Bank 2 intake: Is there any spring tension on Bank 2? Nothing like Bank 1, but just a little? When I went to slide the intake cam block on bank 2, it moved a degree or so. Then it was flush and locked. Again.. seemed in the realm of normal, but I'm not too confident any more. Moving the crank back and forth to drop that lock pin is tedious as I'm not trying to avoid doing any CCW movement.
If you say there should be no spring tension on bank 2, then i have to figure out why bank 2 is just off at TDC and retime.
I haven't put the covers back on because I really want to know for sure.
Thanks guys!
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
On bank 2 the lobes of the cams are either on the peaks or on the base circle so there isn't any force trying to make them rotate.
If your intake cam had to be rotated 1 deg I wouldn't worry about it. You need to be about 5 deg off to throw a code.
Your GAS and my Koch tools must be slightly different. GAS had to copy someone's tool to make theirs. Also was there any wiggle room in the hole that holds the GAS to the top of the cam cap?
It's been 3 days since you posted, have you put the valve covers on and fired it up yet?
Member
If you had the manual chain tensioner on then bank 2 intake shouldn't move at all, if you removed the tensioner before removing the cam blocks then yes it's normal for bank2 intake to rotate a smidge. I also noticed that you said you rotated the crank back and forth, if that was before you started the timing process that's fine but I suggest you only rotate clockwise when your setting things up, you dont want chain slack.
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Member
I've been so busy, while I got it buttoned back up a week ago (after I triple checked my work before placing the covers back on), I didn't get a chance to fire it up until yesterday. I was a wreck turning it over. The thought of not getting this correct was really wearing on me.
Good news - No Codes! The info you guys provided was great and accurate, and in my video I was off enough to cause the issues.
I also locked the exhaust cams down first upon another recommendation. After everything was fully torqued, I hand cranked it. The GAS blocks then slipped right on. I can check this one off the list on to the next. The engine has great pull again. I thought it would be a little quieter, but it's improved from before. Thanks everyone for the info and giving me the confidence to tackle it.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Good to hear it's done.
I now appoint you to be the "go to guy" for all future P0011/P0012 codes.
Are you up for the challenge?
Member
I see what your doing.
I now appoint you to be the "go to guy" for all future P0011/P0012 codes.
Are you up for the challenge?
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Last edited by TheTailor; 02-10-2020 at 03:00 PM.
Member
I'm game. Happy to contribute. Still learning every day.
Member
I've read through this thread and many others trying to address the same issue, but I don't quite understand what it is that solved this issue. Did you just go through the same timing procedure as you have in the past but this time you were able to get the cam blocks to sit flush, whereas in the past that was not the case? Is using the G.A.S. tool necessary? What was done differently that you think made it work this time?
Last edited by Atomistic; 02-17-2020 at 01:08 AM.
Member
@Atomistic -
Yes. I have a couple theories how I messed this up previously. There is a lot of movement when locking everything down and holding the cams with the 27mm end wrench. It's really important to torque about half way first because applying full torque and holding the end wrench isn't easy when you aren't really strong. One theory I have, I was really rushed the second time and I might have 'retimed' by flipping the exhaust and intake GAS blocks. You do not want to do this as they not the same. The second time I did this, I also think I was so rushed that I didn't retard the bank 1 vanos all the way. When I loosened the cam bolt to restart the process it wasn't fully retarded. Either way these were all rookie mistakes made by feeling the pressure of time. I really thought I was out over my skis on this project as I've never done anything like this before. Fortunately with the guidence from vanosman and @Jimlev on my previous thread https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...5-Timpnw-P0021, and reading every thread on this board and watching every youtube video, I was determined to stay at it until success.
Watch my youtube video. You'll see how precise this has to be. I can't imagine locking the crank to TDC, and attempting to 'hold the cams' without tools. You don't need the GAS tools, but you need something to hold those cams. I was quoted a starting price of $4500 +tax for this job. With all the other stuff I replaced it would have been an easy $5k. So in the end the tools are pretty reasonable, all things considered and someone with 540,x5 or a range rover is going to want them after you.Is using the G.A.S. tool necessary?
Torquing the exhaust cams down first really helped take any extra play out of it. Setting the crank to TDC and making sure those cam blocks all slid right in before buttoning it all back up.What was done differently that you think made it work this time?
Are you dealing with these codes after you attempt to retime the car? or were you driving and these cam over advance codes came up?
Member
Actually I was referred to this thread after I met with vanosman in person to get some vanos gears. I've been in your exact situation for the last 3 years with my project car. I've done all the guides and gaskets and seals and suspension hoping the get the car back to like almost new. I replaced the vanos seals myself the first time but when I got it back together the P0012 code was still there. Then I would stop out of frustration for a few months and then try again. Then I put in some used vanos gears thinking I messed the procedure up but got the same codes. Car seems to run fine and the base timing has always been fine. I've replaced cam sensors twice and have like 10 vanos solenoids that all seem to be working properly when using a multimeter and actuating them. I just installed the vanos gears I got from vanosman and I have a pending P0012 code that will probably become a hard code if I drive it a few more miles, which I basically what has happened every time I've gone through this.
I am using tools that look similar to JimLev's but are branded EWK. I've made tiny adjustments to the timing wheel but that only resulted in the code going from P0012 to P0011 depending on how much I adjust it. I'm starting to wonder if there are some oil passages clogged up in the head or block that are restricting flow to the vanos system. I'm going to also clean out the solenoids real good which I haven't done in the past. If that doesn't work I may get new solenoids and possibly spend money on OEM ones. Seriously at my wits end and I'm stoked to see that you got the codes to go away, but I'm just not sure the cam block being flush is my issue. I made extra sure that they were sitting flat and was satisfied with it before locking it down. Per vanosman, I also tightened the exhaust bolts before the intake. Did a pre-torque before tightening to the spec foot-lbs. Everything seemed fine.
Right now I'm focusing on the oil pressure aspect and the components responsible for getting oil pressure to the vanos gear. I'm not sure how many more times I'm willing to open this engine up. I'm almost ready to just put a different M62 in it.
Member
That's so frustrating. What a nightmare.
My issue in the end was my lack of precision in setting the timing, which really shocked me how precise it has to be. So,we probably have different issues and I'm way out over my skis in providing solid advice here.
The guys on this board and vanosman have way more time under the hood than I do. Thinking about all the stuff I've read... Did you do the distribution housings, like this diy from ECS - http://bd8ba3c866c8cbc330ab-7b26c6f3...and_Repair.pdf
I didn't b/c I'm a 2003, but with a 99 I would (Not that would cause a code)
If the vanos gears are filled with oil after you run the car, and turn the car over by hand then I'd be thinking they aren't getting oil blocked. A car would have to have a pretty bad previous life to have an oil passage blocked.
I forgot the other red flag for me previously was with my timing wheels were off on my bad attempts. So when I redid it when I turned the car over by hand I had to readjust until I turned it over without adjusting. This took at least 2 attempts.
Did this code only appear after you retimed it? If yes, At the stage you are in, I'd probably try to retime it with a different set of tools.
Artifically Aspirated
Moderator
Atomistic, watch my video a few more times.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...a-540tu-engine
A couple of things you should look at are
1) The check valves behind the vanos solenoids. If they are plugged up your not going to get enough oil to the vanos.
2) Your '99 has distribution units that don't have a Teflon coating. If the ID of the dist. units are worn from the 3 rings on the end of the intake cams you won't get full oil pressure to the vanos.
If your vanos solenoids aren't dirty I wouldn't replace them. Bad solenoids throw different codes.
P0011 cam timing out of range while the Vanos is inactive.
P0012 cam timing out of range while the Vanos is activated.
P0011 is pretty much always incorrect timing of the trigger wheel, provided that the crank is pinned at TDC and the cam lock blocks are flush to the back of the heads.
P0012 is the cam timing not changing by at least two degrees for at least four seconds once vanos is activated. If you assume the electrical tests passed first (if it didn't that would be a different code), that would pretty much have to be an oil pressure issue.
Last edited by JimLev; 02-17-2020 at 08:58 PM. Reason: added more info.
Member
I appreciate the replies. I currently am juggling another e39 of mine (my 530i daily driver) that got seriously damaged in a accident while it was parked, so the 540 might take a back seat for the next couple of weeks and also why I might not be able to reply right away
I did replace the distribution housings when I did the guides. And If I end up retiming again I'll be certain to use a different set of tools. Probably going to pull the solenoids today and clean them out with brake cleaner. Any chance I can pick those check valves out without removing the valve cover? These were also replaced when I did all this engine work and there's only been a few hundred miles put on it in the last couple of years. I pretty much replaced everything you should when digging in this deep.
Last edited by Atomistic; 02-18-2020 at 03:58 PM.
Member
Were you able to resolve this issue? I am having similar issue and getting a code going from P0012 to P0011 depending on how much I adjust the wheel.
Member
For me, yes. Re-timed the vehicle and paid attention to details. Locked the exhaust cams down first seemed to help me. Did you just finish up timing the car?
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