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Thread: Noob Turbo Question

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kultivater View Post
    Very interesting article! Thank you for that. These are things I've been wanting to learn.
    Don't let this thread mislead you. Most people who have replied to you here will spend days helping you figure stuff out but you have to demonstrate that you're willing to do the leg work. Not out of some stupid principle but because without that, you're not showing any buy-in, and as such it would be a waste of the considerable time required to help you. Some people here, like someguy2800, went to school for this so when someone comes in, opens their mouth and says feed me... I don't think the reaction is difficult to appreciate. Despite what the technician is trying to get you to believe, you're looking to fundamentally modify the design of your car's propulsion system. This is not like adding a vanity upgrade, like an exhaust or intake. Nor is it like flashing a retail tune, which is still playing with fire but at least it's a solution that has already been tested in some conditions. Like the write-up I linked says, an engine is an air pump. Everything else is based on that, ignition, fueling, everything. If you're going to drastically change how much air the engine will see, the car isn't an intelligent creature, it's not going to magically change itself to account for this.

    There are many ways of doing what you want to do but the way you're looking to go about it is about the last reasonable option. It would be in the realm of someone like someguy2800 who would be able to do all of the fabrication work required to make these work, in addition to installing the right parts and calibrating the car to use them. And even then it would be a junk project for the fun of it because there are much better and easier options. If you really want to do this, read up on the fundamentals, go through threads of people who have done something similar and start with components that have been designed for your motor (eg a turbo manifold that will actually bolt up) or your intended goals (eg injectors of the right size). After the hardware, you'll also have to decide on the engine management and calibration options, ie standalone or DME flash, DIY or pay a calibrator etc.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post
    Don't let this thread mislead you. Most people who have replied to you here will spend days helping you figure stuff out but you have to demonstrate that you're willing to do the leg work. Not out of some stupid principle but because without that, you're not showing any buy-in, and as such it would be a waste of the considerable time required to help you. Some people here, like someguy2800, went to school for this so when someone comes in, opens their mouth and says feed me... I don't think the reaction is difficult to appreciate. Despite what the technician is trying to get you to believe, you're looking to fundamentally modify the design of your car's propulsion system. This is not like adding a vanity upgrade, like an exhaust or intake. Nor is it like flashing a retail tune, which is still playing with fire but at least it's a solution that has already been tested in some conditions. Like the write-up I linked says, an engine is an air pump. Everything else is based on that, ignition, fueling, everything. If you're going to drastically change how much air the engine will see, the car isn't an intelligent creature, it's not going to magically change itself to account for this.

    There are many ways of doing what you want to do but the way you're looking to go about it is about the last reasonable option. It would be in the realm of someone like someguy2800 who would be able to do all of the fabrication work required to make these work, in addition to installing the right parts and calibrating the car to use them. And even then it would be a junk project for the fun of it because there are much better and easier options. If you really want to do this, read up on the fundamentals, go through threads of people who have done something similar and start with components that have been designed for your motor (eg a turbo manifold that will actually bolt up) or your intended goals (eg injectors of the right size). After the hardware, you'll also have to decide on the engine management and calibration options, ie standalone or DME flash, DIY or pay a calibrator etc.

    So basically, the problem isn't really even so much that it won't fit. You're telling me that even if there were a bright, shiny, glowing expanse of space with the words "put your turbo RIGHT HERE BRO" hovering in mid air within the space, if I installed it with only the basic necessary parts(intercooler, piping, oil lines), I might as well have placed a cherry bomb inside my engine block and lit the fuse, because the end result would be the same. Am I right? Or am I misunderstanding you?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kultivater View Post
    He started laughing when I told him what everyone said here, and said all I need is the right piping for the turbos, an intercooler, and some oil lines for them.
    I’d find another mechanic. It is surprising you are complaining about us not being helpful when we have given you information and leads on where to learn. Your mechanic is not only misleading you, but also not giving you any useful information or guidance on where to find it. If you started taking your car apart to do what he suggests, you would run into the problems we have identified (and that he has failed to recognize or point out). He would gladly take your money to fix the mess that wound result. In contrast, none of us have anything to gain here.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    It is surprising you are complaining about us not being helpful
    Can you quote any specific text where I ever did that? In fact I never once even implied it. Quite the contrary actually. In fact I THANKED you for BEING helpful. Multiple times.... double you tea eff dude.

  5. #55
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    #25, #34, #39, #40, bug I don’t really have the time or interest to argue with someone who in 19 posts over 5 days is still pretty much right where he started, so I at least until I see some positive change, I will leave you to others more patient than me.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    #25, #34, #39, #40, bug I don’t really have the time or interest to argue with someone who in 19 posts over 5 days is still pretty much right where he started, so I at least until I see some positive change, I will leave you to others more patient than me.
    Positive change... what are you even talking about? First you accuse me of something I haven't done, then you tell me that me being open to learning, asking for information, taking the advice given, and subsequently thanking everyone who gave it, is somehow negative and in need of change? Honestly, that right there pretty much means I'm no longer interested in what you have to say anyway, so bye.

  7. #57
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    i think bascially every post.

  8. #58
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    Looks like a good thread to close/delete


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  9. #59
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    Please stop feeding the troll. Just let this thread die. Nothing good is coming out of it so far.

    OP, do what you want with your car. Bye bye.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kultivater View Post
    Actually I enjoy debate, and have been participating in formal debates with people who have PhDs(mostly in theology, but still) for two decades, so I'm very confident in my abilities. Honestly, I really should've been a lawyer, but my passions lie elsewhere as far as a career goes. So, when the opportunity presents itself, I'm always game for a formal debate(a productive one with a worthy opponent, that is). As for your point: I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate it. I simply perceived a snarky attitude from you, and responded in kind. I'm not here to get into pissing matches with people. I'm here to learn. Thank you for your responses.
    The fact that you consider your debate skills and aspirations as a lawyer to be skills useful here scares me. They're not. What you need is a little less desire to win the conversation, an understanding that not everyone who can help you will smile and pet you on the head while doing it and a bit of humility. You're getting a lot more information and being treated more gently than you realize. What's funny is a couple years ago this thread would have been a raging dumpster fire.

    The brick analogy is an incredibly apt and fair one. Given what I think your skills/experience is, my first impression would be that the most expensive thing you can do is use a couple unknown turbos (this is the net of a lot of the posts in this thread IMHO). They're the opposite of free, at least for you. A highly experienced guy could probably make them work well in some application (assuming they work well...), but expecting folks to bring that degree of help to you requires a lot more from you than you're providing for both details and approach. Honestly, it's asking a lot even if you're perfect on those things, but it does happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by kultivater View Post
    I understand. However, I'm not those people, so please don't assume I am.
    At this rate, you're honestly highly likely to be one of those people.

    You need to step back and re-approach this whole thing. Make a thread that gives far more information for folks to go on:
    - Details about your car as it currently sits
    - Is this your DD and will you have the ability to have it off the road for a bit (potentially an extended bit)
    - A frank assessment of your current skills and experience, tools/resources/workshop available to you, etc.
    - Are you planning to do all of the work yourself or are you going to have a shop (or experienced buddy) help?
    - What are your goals?
    - What is your budget?

    And more that I can't pull out of my half-caffeinated brain after hustling spawn out the door for exams...

    There are some phenomenally talented and knowledgeable people in this sub. It tends to be a little chippy sometimes, but understand that a lot of these guys have had their time wasted as they've offered significant insight/knowledge and throwing life-rings to everyone isn't how this place works.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kultivater View Post
    So basically, the problem isn't really even so much that it won't fit. You're telling me that even if there were a bright, shiny, glowing expanse of space with the words "put your turbo RIGHT HERE BRO" hovering in mid air within the space, if I installed it with only the basic necessary parts(intercooler, piping, oil lines), I might as well have placed a cherry bomb inside my engine block and lit the fuse, because the end result would be the same. Am I right? Or am I misunderstanding you?
    There are two seperate problems here. First the turbo's you have are for an N54, not an M54. That is a big distinction. They will not and cannot bolt to the cylinder head without a good deal of modification. The bolt pattern is completely different and the M54 does not have the machining on the head for the round protrusions on the flange of the manifolds you have. Google a picture of an M54 manifold and compare to what you have and you will see why these parts are incompatible. This problem is easily overcome though because there are plenty of aftermarket turbo manifolds and turbos that will bolt right up to an M54 without modification. Then you need intercooler piping, new exhaust, redo the vacuum/crankcase vent system to handle boost, ect... All easily done by a motivated person and the info is out there.

    The second problem is that your car was never intended to have a turbo on it so the ECU will not know what to do when you suddenly increase the airflow by 50%. The ECU was not designed to anticipate boost pressure so the timing and fuel tables do not have the programming in them to add the appropriate fuel and reduce ignition timing which is needed when the engine goes into boost. The MAF sensor also will not have sufficient range to read the added airflow and the fuel injectors are too small to add the required fuel. This is also easily overcome because there are people out there that can re-calibrate the ecu to make it work with boost. The fuel and ignition tables are re calibrated and new larger injectors and MAF sensor used. This is a well trodden path and companies such as RK tunes will gladly sell you a tuning package to make everything work.

    So in summery, if you really want a turbo 330i, it can easily be done by you with the help of others. Expect to spend many many hours reading and spend about $6000. Its worth it and we will help.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, MS3pro Ultimate, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by e24mpwr View Post
    The fact that you consider your debate skills and aspirations as a lawyer to be skills useful here scares me.
    Serious question not intended to mock or insult: What is it with you people and your assumptions? If you go back and read, you'll not see even a single instance where I proclaimed my "skills" in debate to be useful at all, here or anywhere else. I said I enjoy debate and relish the opportunity. When you make assumptions about people and treat them as if they're facts, especially when they're insulting to the person in question it's rude. Please stop that.

    Quote Originally Posted by e24mpwr View Post
    You're getting a lot more information and being treated more gently than you realize. What's funny is a couple years ago this thread would have been a raging dumpster fire.
    Okay... so you're implying that I should be grateful that the members of this forum aren't acting like chemically imbalanced children incapable of intelligent conversation and reason? Honestly.. no. I hold every adult, non-mentally handicapped human to a standard of respect, maturity, and logic. These are very basic expectations. I'm not going to "pet" a groan adult on the head for not acting like a 5 year old with an attitude problem. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by e24mpwr View Post
    The brick analogy is an incredibly apt and fair one. Given what I think your skills/experience is, my first impression would be that the most expensive thing you can do is use a couple unknown turbos (this is the net of a lot of the posts in this thread IMHO). They're the opposite of free, at least for you. A highly experienced guy could probably make them work well in some application (assuming they work well...), but expecting folks to bring that degree of help to you requires a lot more from you than you're providing for both details and approach. Honestly, it's asking a lot even if you're perfect on those things, but it does happen.
    I understand that now, thanks to the many responses saying it, and I have said, multiple times now, that I accept it and plan to take the advice I was given here. I find it rather irritating that my words seem to be ignored in accusation even when I've said them over and over. I thank you, and everyone else, for your helpful information and advice. You've all saved me quite a lot of money and headache with it. What more can I say?

    Quote Originally Posted by e24mpwr View Post
    At this rate, you're honestly highly likely to be one of those people.
    If you really believe that, then you simply haven't been paying attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by e24mpwr View Post
    You need to step back and re-approach this whole thing. Make a thread that gives far more information for folks to go on:
    - Details about your car as it currently sits
    - Is this your DD and will you have the ability to have it off the road for a bit (potentially an extended bit)
    - A frank assessment of your current skills and experience, tools/resources/workshop available to you, etc.
    - Are you planning to do all of the work yourself or are you going to have a shop (or experienced buddy) help?
    - What are your goals?
    - What is your budget?
    That's a good idea. I'll get around to doing that. I'm actually quite proud of my car, even in stock mode, because it's extremely rare, especially in my area. It's pretty much exactly what I've always wanted, short of an M3.

    Quote Originally Posted by e24mpwr View Post
    There are some phenomenally talented and knowledgeable people in this sub. It tends to be a little chippy sometimes, but understand that a lot of these guys have had their time wasted as they've offered significant insight/knowledge and throwing life-rings to everyone isn't how this place works.
    I do understand that. However, it is incredibly unintelligent to assume that all noobs will waste their time. Judging a book by its cover is never a logical practice. I expect more from people. Perhaps my expectations can be unrealistic in certain circles, however, regardless, I will not lower my standards, because I hold myself to the very same standards, and as such, feel I deserve the same.
    Last edited by kultivater; 01-22-2020 at 09:17 PM.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    There are two seperate problems here. First the turbo's you have are for an N54, not an M54. That is a big distinction. They will not and cannot bolt to the cylinder head without a good deal of modification. The bolt pattern is completely different and the M54 does not have the machining on the head for the round protrusions on the flange of the manifolds you have. Google a picture of an M54 manifold and compare to what you have and you will see why these parts are incompatible. This problem is easily overcome though because there are plenty of aftermarket turbo manifolds and turbos that will bolt right up to an M54 without modification. Then you need intercooler piping, new exhaust, redo the vacuum/crankcase vent system to handle boost, ect... All easily done by a motivated person and the info is out there.

    The second problem is that your car was never intended to have a turbo on it so the ECU will not know what to do when you suddenly increase the airflow by 50%. The ECU was not designed to anticipate boost pressure so the timing and fuel tables do not have the programming in them to add the appropriate fuel and reduce ignition timing which is needed when the engine goes into boost. The MAF sensor also will not have sufficient range to read the added airflow and the fuel injectors are too small to add the required fuel. This is also easily overcome because there are people out there that can re-calibrate the ecu to make it work with boost. The fuel and ignition tables are re calibrated and new larger injectors and MAF sensor used. This is a well trodden path and companies such as RK tunes will gladly sell you a tuning package to make everything work.

    So in summery, if you really want a turbo 330i, it can easily be done by you with the help of others. Expect to spend many many hours reading and spend about $6000. Its worth it and we will help.

    See, THAT is a great response. It's concise, informative, and dumbed down enough to where someone as ignorant to engines as me can understand it. Thank you very much for that. Currently my car is my DD, and I certainly don't have $6k right now, so it'll be a while before I undertake that project. However, assuming everything works out in the future, I will indeed do that. I'm sure I could get more bang for my buck if I bought a same-year M3 with an N54 and turbo'ed it, but honestly, it just wouldn't feel the same. I love my car, and the 330Ci has better specs for power anyway(assuming it has sport suspension/chassis), because it's lighter and more agile. It will be a worthy project I will be very proud of once I accomplish. My first engine modification. I can't wait.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kultivater View Post
    Serious question not intended to mock or insult: What is it with you people and your assumptions? If you go back and read, you'll not see even a single instance where I proclaimed my "skills" in debate to be useful at all, here or anywhere else. I said I enjoy debate and relish the opportunity. When you make assumptions about people and treat them as if they're facts, especially when they're insulting to the person in question it's rude. Please stop that.



    Okay... so you're implying that I should be grateful that the members of this forum aren't acting like chemically imbalanced children incapable of intelligent conversation and reason? Honestly.. no. I hold every adult, non-mentally handicapped human to a standard of respect, maturity, and logic. These are very basic expectations. I'm not going to "pet" a groan adult on the head for not acting like a 5 year old with an attitude problem. Sorry.



    I understand that now, thanks to the many responses saying it, and I have said, multiple times now, that I accept it and plan to take the advice I was given here. I find it rather irritating that my words seem to be ignored in accusation even when I've said them over and over. I thank you, and everyone else, for your helpful information and advice. You've all saved me quite a lot of money and headache with it. What more can I say?



    If you really believe that, then you simply haven't been paying attention.



    That's a good idea. I'll get around to doing that. I'm actually quite proud of my car, even in stock mode, because it's extremely rare, especially in my area. It's pretty much exactly what I've always wanted, short of an M3.



    I do understand that. However, it is incredibly unintelligent to assume that all noobs will waste their time. Judging a book by its cover is never a logical practice. I expect more from people. Perhaps my expectations can be unrealistic in certain circles, however, regardless, I will not lower my standards, because I hold myself to the very same standards, and as such, feel I deserve the same.
    Happy trails sir. I think it is amusing you think it's all of us that have the problem. And I read your responses quite carefully.

    As far as me and my assumptions, they're informed by almost fifteen years here and ten as a moderator. So there's that.

    To be clear though, I wasn't assuming that all noobs will waste their time, just ones with attitudes like yours If you get the chip off your shoulder you'll do better overall - just sayin'. I do wish you luck though.

  15. #65
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    Maybe the moderator could retitle this thread “The Debate Thread.” I decided to check to see whether the OP has learned any of the subject matter — turbocharging an M54 — in the past 5 days. I see no evidence of it. Just more wasting other people’s time in debate about stuff other than the subject matter. Carry on.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    Maybe the moderator could retitle this thread “The Debate Thread.”



    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    I decided to check to see whether the OP has learned any of the subject matter — turbocharging an M54 — in the past 5 days. I see no evidence of it. Just more wasting other people’s time in debate about stuff other than the subject matter. Carry on.
    #Wetheproblem

  17. #67
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    OP wins, in that everyone will walk away.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by milKt View Post
    OP wins, in that everyone will walk away.
    #walkaway movement


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