Hello All,
Looking to rebuild my Vortech V-2 supercharger. Considering sending it Vortech to have it refreshed, but the lead time is about 2-3 weeks. I also came across a company called 928 Motorsports that seem to have been rebuilding vortechs for awhile, with lead time about 5 days. I searched many forums for others that may have used them. Anyone here have rebuild experience with 928 Motorsports? thank you.
There is also superchargerrebuilds.com. I used them years ago.
Jon Bond Performance.
https://www.jonbondperformance.com/
I heard some less than great things that spooked me about 928. I had first hand accounts from co-workers about Jon Bond(I work at Roush, lots of car guys).
He rebuilt my Vortech last month. I love that he gave me a $270 core credit for my impeller.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
Have Vortech do it. Better service and they can replace your likely beat up tag on it for $15 too.
I wasn't entirely satisfied with the last one I sent to Vortech either; sounded like it was coming apart! They claimed the gear-drive backlash was within their specs, but I said there's No Way I can put that in a customer's car and they're accept that. They did send me another one that was significantly quieter, but I think I had to pay shipping both ways (it's been a while, give me a break... ).
I *just* sent one off to Jon Bond Performance (customer's choice) and they upgraded it with a billet impeller (and gave credit for the good used one). I'm doing some other work, including a flex-fuel setup, so I haven't tested the s/c under load yet. But so far, sounds promising...
https://www.jonbondperformance.com/
This is it.
https://www.jonbondperformance.com/p...w-3-02-s-trim/
Here it is installed.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
Well, that is certainly nicer than previous impeller offerings. I'm still skeptical of their claims but if that center section resize is worth that much in CFM, then that is great.
Lol. Ok, be skeptical. I'll report back. I was told by Job Bond the upgrade was worth 25+hp.
In the meantime I work for a company of car guys. When someone had lots of experience with a variety of people who had Jon Bond built superchargers, that's quite an endorsement.
Last edited by Jamesons Viggen; 04-07-2020 at 06:41 PM.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
I will be until proven otherwise. Going from S-Trim to Si-Trim adds no noticeable power. That’s 25 less CFM over the swap you just made.
You should be asking more questions imo.
-Why is JB doing this and not Vortech?
-What have other members with trim upgrades experienced? Already answered that for you and I’ve done this upgrade a dozen times.
Post your results with no other changes made other than the impeller, please.
Last edited by Braymond141; 04-08-2020 at 07:54 PM.
Just because Vortech doesn't do this...lol. That's a flawed argument from the start.
I've seen dynos of stock Hellcats with just the impeller net 40whp. So figure less HP and less displacement, the 25hp estimate is reasonable.
It's not just a factor of the CFM uptick obviously that makes this appealing. I also can't have many others chime in with their results on a setup like mine as people don't go this route. On this forum the default is to ditch your blower for a turbo and certainly not go deeper into your blower setup.
There will be no way I can confirm the results of only the impeller. I'm having too many upgrades done at once.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
I noted the Hellcat as it was noted as a benchmark for impeller upgrades on other sites, I think it was 928 MotorSports or SuperchargerRebuild.com(it's been 6-12 months since I was researching this).
The logic that just because Vortech doesn't do something... Why don't OEMs upgrade certain components that aftermarket companies do? Similar reasons, cost, longevity/reliability, consumer complaints(noise/nvh etc), general laziness etc etc lol.
You've come into this whole conversation with an attitude that if it A) Isn't Vortech, it's no good and B) All impeller upgrades you've seen are crap. You're the pessimist. Great.
I am coming from this with a rebuilder with a stellar rep(unlike 928 Motorsports or the others I looked into) and I have dozens of first hands to vouch for the quality of JBs work. I am not going to be able to convince you to change your opinion on A and B. But I will defer to my first hand accounts and enjoy my rebuilt supercharger.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
I had Vortech do the T trim conversion on my S Trim. I think today there is a newer version, the Ti Trim. That would be fun on a higher power build.
These days it is relatively cheap to get a billet impeller. Done all the time now with turbos. Some of them seem to be pretty good. I’d want to see back to back testing to know how much better the billet upgrade is. Maybe Bond has that testing?
Bond had said converting my S trim to T trim would have made it laggier than my billet upgrade. The T-trim supports plenty of CFM but it would be of use on a larger displacement engine.
His email to me earlier...I had asked about going T-trim.
"
A factory S trim is rated for 675hp. A billet S trim will put you into 700 to 725 depending on your application. I think you will be perfectly fine. Any larger, and it will be overkill for your engine size at low rpm. You would end up with lag."
Last edited by Jamesons Viggen; 04-09-2020 at 02:02 PM.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
You've missed the point of my posts entirely and you're also recommending that the OP have his charger rebuilt by a company that charges $200+ more than Vortech.
Great, and you're the overly optimistic on sales pitches. You're also sold on the fact that it isn't, and I already stated it appears to be a nice piece but I don't buy into their power claims (yet). Vortech is a much more capable company, it was a POINT OF TOPIC not a statement. I'm clearly more open to this than you are. The only attitude here is yours, drop it.
I wish you would have done more to prove the worthiness of this upgrade.
Last edited by Braymond141; 04-09-2020 at 03:01 PM.
I did not notice any lag with the T trim versus the S trim. I am not sure the belt driven supercharger is like an exhaust drive turbo in terms of lag. Or a positive displacement blower that has to fill the larger volume. Maybe a tiny bit more drag on the crank?
As for the claimed power figures, They are probably crank hp. 675 crank might allow something like 525-550 rwhp. You have the normal 15% drivetrain loss to get from crank to rear wheel, but you also have the blower dragging hard on the crank to spin to 50-55k. It’s hard to nail down the exact power it takes, but you can try to do the research. I read numbers of as much as 60 hp. Add that to around 80 hp drivetrain loss, and 675 becomes 535 rwhp. I know I did not get there with an S Trim or even a T Trim on my S52, but maybe my tune was no good or maybe my belt drive was slipping too much.
I tried to back into this by monitoring injector duty cycle and trying to figure out how much fuel I was using and then playing with BSFC variables like 0.40 to 0.60. I think our motors are in the more efficient end of that range, but you see the experts use the higher end of the range. No idea how this translates to E85.
Lovely to speak with you
Your opinion is worth so much more than mine when I have put in hours of research and spoken to those with first hand experience with this rebuilder.
To my knowledge Vortech does not offer a core trade in value on impellers. This drastically affected the cost of the upgrade. Vortech is happy to upgrade my S to a T-trim with a matching volute. That is what you seem to like the idea of. Yes, it would be all Vortech. I can see the appeal. But from the research I have done the T-Trim will give more CFM which is not needed for smaller displacement applications like this. Instead the billet impellers increase CFM slightly while reducing lag compared to a T-Trim. It doesn't require a volute change either.
I made a personal recommendation to the OP on a topic I have first hand experience with. It was not an overly optimistic sales pitch, that's your tilt on it. Again, you're tone here seems uncalled for. I love being told I am the one to drop the attitude though. Feel free to ignore me if you have continued issues with my attitude and I'll gladly do the same.
Last edited by Jamesons Viggen; 04-09-2020 at 04:09 PM.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
I am sorry if I was being overly sensitive and gave off the wrong impression.
In my experience in the Forced Induction section, the topic of superchargers is often met with dump that and go turbo bro. I picked up my stage 2 setup in 2011 for $1800, a steal back then and today and then put down 151whp after install on the same dyno I had NA. My blower setup was as good bang for the buck as it gets. I kept my stock clutch intact, my stock head gasket, nothing had to be beefed up to run 11-13psi for years. That was not true of a similar turbo, the tq just isn't stock clutch friendly. So I've been accustomed to the know it all approach of the mentality when I ventured here.
I have put about 2 years into this upgrade rebuild plan.
I had read off putting things about retailers such as 928 and others you mentioned.
I had finally found a blower rebuilder that I could not find negative reports on. That's not a sales pitch. I have no horse in the race.
Randy Forbes chimed in with first hand experience that his Vortech dealing last time was not so great and he has first hand dealing with JB with my blower install. I thought that would back me up and change the course of dialog.
I saw your reply as go to Vortech, all the aftermarket impellers look like crap as a certain tone that put me on a defensive course that perhaps you didn't intend and that's on me. Each reply from me got worse from there.
I stand by what I replied to the OP, and that should be the takeaway. 928 and other sources have some big questionable claims and quality concerns reported over the years. I have not driven my car yet with the JB rebuild, but the pictures sure do look nice lol. I have ridden in a JB equipped car, a co-workers Marauder, and the Marauder Clubs have been using JB for awhile and have reported great results.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
Zack should do a good job with the tuning so that won’t be an issue. If you can get to 21 psi, that would be very impressive. I don’t think anyone has yet gotten past 18 or 19 psi. What size is your crank pulley? You would probably need a 6.5 to 7.0 to drive the blower that hard. The only problem with big crank pulleys is that they get in the way of the fan. This assumes you are using a Dinan/RMS dedicated drive with extended crank pulley. If you are on the stock accessory drive with the little 5.25 pulley, I’d be surprised if you can get enough traction.
Anyway, looking forward to results even if my E36 supercharger days ended a decade ago and I have been an E36 turbo owner since. I have considered putting a centrifugal on my E90M3.
'98 RMS stage 2+++++(491whp/390tq VAC cams, CES Cutring-9:1, Built blower, Meth etc)
'09 Saab 9-5 Combi 5mt 1 of 1(Built Motor, Brembos, LSD, the works!)
'22 Cadillac CT4-V BlackWing 6mt
'22 Cadillac CT4 2.0T Sport AWD (wife's)
Jamesons, I'm certainly rooting for you on your power goals. I am a little surprised you didn't go Ti with 21psi in mind. It would have been my pick just because it's the biggest thing that fits in the series (hah).
You're right Philip, I was wrong on that. T-Trim use a larger 3.75" Inlet. S-Trim use 3.5". The compressor maps look almost identical though which corresponds with the similar performance.
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