Rebuild Vortech V-2 by 928 Motorsports???

[MTrey]

Hello All,

Looking to rebuild my Vortech V-2 supercharger. Considering sending it Vortech to have it refreshed, but the lead time is about 2-3 weeks. I also came across a company called 928 Motorsports that seem to have been rebuilding vortechs for awhile, with lead time about 5 days. I searched many forums for others that may have used them. Anyone here have rebuild experience with 928 Motorsports? thank you.

[pbonsalb]

There is also superchargerrebuilds.com. I used them years ago.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Jon Bond Performance.
https://www.jonbondperformance.com/

I heard some less than great things that spooked me about 928. I had first hand accounts from co-workers about Jon Bond(I work at Roush, lots of car guys).

He rebuilt my Vortech last month. I love that he gave me a $270 core credit for my impeller.

[Braymond141]

Have Vortech do it. Better service and they can replace your likely beat up tag on it for $15 too.

[Randy Forbes]

Have Vortech do it. Better service and they can replace your likely beat up tag on it for $15 too.

I wasn't entirely satisfied with the last one I sent to Vortech either; sounded like it was coming apart! They claimed the gear-drive backlash was within their specs, but I said there's No Way I can put that in a customer's car and they're accept that. They did send me another one that was significantly quieter, but I think I had to pay shipping both ways (it's been a while, give me a break... ).

I *just* sent one off to Jon Bond Performance (customer's choice) and they upgraded it with a billet impeller (and gave credit for the good used one). I'm doing some other work, including a flex-fuel setup, so I haven't tested the s/c under load yet. But so far, sounds promising...

https://www.jonbondperformance.com/

[Jamesons Viggen]

I wasn't entirely satisfied with the last one I sent to Vortech either; sounded like it was coming apart! They claimed the gear-drive backlash was within their specs, but I said there's No Way I can put that in a customer's car and they're accept that. They did send me another one that was significantly quieter, but I think I had to pay shipping both ways (it's been a while, give me a break... ).

I *just* sent one off to Jon Bond Performance (customer's choice) and they upgraded it with a billet impeller (and gave credit for the good used one). I'm doing some other work, including a flex-fuel setup, so I haven't tested the s/c under load yet. But so far, sounds promising...

https://www.jonbondperformance.com/

That customer sounds VERY SMART

[Braymond141]

I wasn't entirely satisfied with the last one I sent to Vortech either; sounded like it was coming apart! They claimed the gear-drive backlash was within their specs, but I said there's No Way I can put that in a customer's car and they're accept that. They did send me another one that was significantly quieter, but I think I had to pay shipping both ways (it's been a while, give me a break... ).

I *just* sent one off to Jon Bond Performance (customer's choice) and they upgraded it with a billet impeller (and gave credit for the good used one). I'm doing some other work, including a flex-fuel setup, so I haven't tested the s/c under load yet. But so far, sounds promising...

https://www.jonbondperformance.com/

Define “upgrade”. All of these aftermarket impellers look like dog doo. I’d rather trust Vortech with engineering on that. Note that any real upgrade includes a matching volute.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Define “upgrade”. All of these aftermarket impellers look like dog doo. I’d rather trust Vortech with engineering on that. Note that any real upgrade includes a matching volute.

This is it.
https://www.jonbondperformance.com/p...w-3-02-s-trim/

Here it is installed.

[Braymond141]

Well, that is certainly nicer than previous impeller offerings. I'm still skeptical of their claims but if that center section resize is worth that much in CFM, then that is great.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Well, that is certainly nicer than previous impeller offerings. I'm still skeptical of their claims but if that center section resize is worth that much in CFM, then that is great.

Lol. Ok, be skeptical. I'll report back. I was told by Job Bond the upgrade was worth 25+hp.

In the meantime I work for a company of car guys. When someone had lots of experience with a variety of people who had Jon Bond built superchargers, that's quite an endorsement.

[Braymond141]

Lol. Ok, be skeptical. I'll report back. I was told by Job Bond the upgrade was worth 25+hp.

In the meantime I work for a company of car guys. When someone had lots of experience with a variety of people who had Jon Bond built superchargers, that's quite an endorsement.

I will be until proven otherwise. Going from S-Trim to Si-Trim adds no noticeable power. That’s 25 less CFM over the swap you just made.

You should be asking more questions imo.
-Why is JB doing this and not Vortech?
-What have other members with trim upgrades experienced? Already answered that for you and I’ve done this upgrade a dozen times.

Post your results with no other changes made other than the impeller, please.

[Jamesons Viggen]

I will be until proven otherwise. Going from S-Trim to Si-Trim adds no noticeable power. That’s 25 less CFM over the swap you just made.

You should be asking more questions imo.
-Why is JB doing this and not Vortech?
-What have other members with trim upgrades experienced? Already answered that for you and I’ve done this upgrade a dozen times.

Post your results with no other changes made other than the impeller, please.

Just because Vortech doesn't do this...lol. That's a flawed argument from the start.

I've seen dynos of stock Hellcats with just the impeller net 40whp. So figure less HP and less displacement, the 25hp estimate is reasonable.


It's not just a factor of the CFM uptick obviously that makes this appealing. I also can't have many others chime in with their results on a setup like mine as people don't go this route. On this forum the default is to ditch your blower for a turbo and certainly not go deeper into your blower setup.

There will be no way I can confirm the results of only the impeller. I'm having too many upgrades done at once.

[Braymond141]

Just because Vortech doesn't do this...lol. That's a flawed argument from the start.

I've seen dynos of stock Hellcats with just the impeller net 40whp. So figure less HP and less displacement, the 25hp estimate is reasonable.


It's not just a factor of the CFM uptick obviously that makes this appealing. I also can't have many others chime in with their results on a setup like mine as people don't go this route. On this forum the default is to ditch your blower for a turbo and certainly not go deeper into your blower setup.

There will be no way I can confirm the results of only the impeller. I'm having too many upgrades done at once.

It's not flawed at all. Vortech has impeller upgrades that are paired with a larger volute to support it. Why would they not do the same thing JB is doing?

Hellcats do not use centrifugal superchargers.

[Jamesons Viggen]

It's not flawed at all. Vortech has impeller upgrades that are paired with a larger volute to support it. Why would they not do the same thing JB is doing?

Hellcats do not use centrifugal superchargers.

I noted the Hellcat as it was noted as a benchmark for impeller upgrades on other sites, I think it was 928 MotorSports or SuperchargerRebuild.com(it's been 6-12 months since I was researching this).

The logic that just because Vortech doesn't do something... Why don't OEMs upgrade certain components that aftermarket companies do? Similar reasons, cost, longevity/reliability, consumer complaints(noise/nvh etc), general laziness etc etc lol.

You've come into this whole conversation with an attitude that if it A) Isn't Vortech, it's no good and B) All impeller upgrades you've seen are crap. You're the pessimist. Great.

I am coming from this with a rebuilder with a stellar rep(unlike 928 Motorsports or the others I looked into) and I have dozens of first hands to vouch for the quality of JBs work. I am not going to be able to convince you to change your opinion on A and B. But I will defer to my first hand accounts and enjoy my rebuilt supercharger.

[pbonsalb]

I had Vortech do the T trim conversion on my S Trim. I think today there is a newer version, the Ti Trim. That would be fun on a higher power build.

These days it is relatively cheap to get a billet impeller. Done all the time now with turbos. Some of them seem to be pretty good. I’d want to see back to back testing to know how much better the billet upgrade is. Maybe Bond has that testing?

[Jamesons Viggen]

I had Vortech do the T trim conversion on my S Trim. I think today there is a newer version, the Ti Trim. That would be fun on a higher power build.

These days it is relatively cheap to get a billet impeller. Done all the time now with turbos. Some of them seem to be pretty good. I’d want to see back to back testing to know how much better the billet upgrade is. Maybe Bond has that testing?

Bond had said converting my S trim to T trim would have made it laggier than my billet upgrade. The T-trim supports plenty of CFM but it would be of use on a larger displacement engine.

His email to me earlier...I had asked about going T-trim.
"
A factory S trim is rated for 675hp. A billet S trim will put you into 700 to 725 depending on your application. I think you will be perfectly fine. Any larger, and it will be overkill for your engine size at low rpm. You would end up with lag."

[Braymond141]

You've come into this whole conversation with an attitude that if it A) Isn't Vortech, it's no good and B) All impeller upgrades you've seen are crap. You're the pessimist. Great.

You've missed the point of my posts entirely and you're also recommending that the OP have his charger rebuilt by a company that charges $200+ more than Vortech.

Great, and you're the overly optimistic on sales pitches. You're also sold on the fact that it isn't, and I already stated it appears to be a nice piece but I don't buy into their power claims (yet). Vortech is a much more capable company, it was a POINT OF TOPIC not a statement. I'm clearly more open to this than you are. The only attitude here is yours, drop it.

I wish you would have done more to prove the worthiness of this upgrade.

[pbonsalb]

Bond had said converting my S trim to T trim would have made it laggier than my billet upgrade. The T-trim supports plenty of CFM but it would be of use on a larger displacement engine.

His email to me earlier...I had asked about going T-trim.
"
A factory S trim is rated for 675hp. A billet S trim will put you into 700 to 725 depending on your application. I think you will be perfectly fine. Any larger, and it will be overkill for your engine size at low rpm. You would end up with lag."

I did not notice any lag with the T trim versus the S trim. I am not sure the belt driven supercharger is like an exhaust drive turbo in terms of lag. Or a positive displacement blower that has to fill the larger volume. Maybe a tiny bit more drag on the crank?

As for the claimed power figures, They are probably crank hp. 675 crank might allow something like 525-550 rwhp. You have the normal 15% drivetrain loss to get from crank to rear wheel, but you also have the blower dragging hard on the crank to spin to 50-55k. It’s hard to nail down the exact power it takes, but you can try to do the research. I read numbers of as much as 60 hp. Add that to around 80 hp drivetrain loss, and 675 becomes 535 rwhp. I know I did not get there with an S Trim or even a T Trim on my S52, but maybe my tune was no good or maybe my belt drive was slipping too much.

I tried to back into this by monitoring injector duty cycle and trying to figure out how much fuel I was using and then playing with BSFC variables like 0.40 to 0.60. I think our motors are in the more efficient end of that range, but you see the experts use the higher end of the range. No idea how this translates to E85.

[Jamesons Viggen]

You've missed the point of my posts entirely and you're also recommending that the OP have his charger rebuilt by a company that charges $200+ more than Vortech.

Great, and you're the overly optimistic on sales pitches. You're also sold on the fact that it isn't, and I already stated it appears to be a nice piece but I don't buy into their power claims (yet). Vortech is a much more capable company, it was a POINT OF TOPIC not a statement. I'm clearly more open to this than you are. The only attitude here is yours, drop it.

I wish you would have done more to prove the worthiness of this upgrade.

Lovely to speak with you

Your opinion is worth so much more than mine when I have put in hours of research and spoken to those with first hand experience with this rebuilder.

To my knowledge Vortech does not offer a core trade in value on impellers. This drastically affected the cost of the upgrade. Vortech is happy to upgrade my S to a T-trim with a matching volute. That is what you seem to like the idea of. Yes, it would be all Vortech. I can see the appeal. But from the research I have done the T-Trim will give more CFM which is not needed for smaller displacement applications like this. Instead the billet impellers increase CFM slightly while reducing lag compared to a T-Trim. It doesn't require a volute change either.

I made a personal recommendation to the OP on a topic I have first hand experience with. It was not an overly optimistic sales pitch, that's your tilt on it. Again, you're tone here seems uncalled for. I love being told I am the one to drop the attitude though. Feel free to ignore me if you have continued issues with my attitude and I'll gladly do the same.

[Jamesons Viggen]

I did not notice any lag with the T trim versus the S trim. I am not sure the belt driven supercharger is like an exhaust drive turbo in terms of lag. Or a positive displacement blower that has to fill the larger volume. Maybe a tiny bit more drag on the crank?

As for the claimed power figures, They are probably crank hp. 675 crank might allow something like 525-550 rwhp. You have the normal 15% drivetrain loss to get from crank to rear wheel, but you also have the blower dragging hard on the crank to spin to 50-55k. It’s hard to nail down the exact power it takes, but you can try to do the research. I read numbers of as much as 60 hp. Add that to around 80 hp drivetrain loss, and 675 becomes 535 rwhp. I know I did not get there with an S Trim or even a T Trim on my S52, but maybe my tune was no good or maybe my belt drive was slipping too much.

I tried to back into this by monitoring injector duty cycle and trying to figure out how much fuel I was using and then playing with BSFC variables like 0.40 to 0.60. I think our motors are in the more efficient end of that range, but you see the experts use the higher end of the range. No idea how this translates to E85.

I am pretty sure the quoted figures are crank as well.

I am working with 22RPD on this setup. I think you saw that in my other thread. I should be cracking 500whp on pump and with as much as 21psi on E85 550whp isn't out of the question.

[Jamesons Viggen]

A number of us have put years of research into this. I've rebuilt 18 Vortech superchargers, sold 14 Dinan and RMS SC kits and have done almost as many installs. The E36 supercharger community has had YEARS of 928 and Superchargerrebuilds blowing smoke up our asses with substandard parts (SRebuilds has Vortech grade rebuild kits which are great, but his other products are very poor). I speak from experience and changed my opinion on quality after you posted pictures of the impeller. I'd appreciate it if your responses reflected that change and stopped dragging in thoughts from before that. "lol, ok" is not a VERY SMART response.

You just made that very change. You went from S-Trim to a T-Trim equivalent (which is the same as the Si upgrade minus the 30mm input shaft bearing upgrade). Were you aware the T-Trim was turned into the Si-Trim by Vortech? They are one in the same. Do you see why someone with experience making the same jump would have doubts about the power claim? Do you see why his sales pitch is flawed?

I'm all for improvements but the proof is yet to be seen. The build quality has my attention along with weight and balancing specs (but I don’t know what real world benefits that has). Not having to change the volute to get to Si/T-trim levels is also a plus.

I am sorry if I was being overly sensitive and gave off the wrong impression.

In my experience in the Forced Induction section, the topic of superchargers is often met with dump that and go turbo bro. I picked up my stage 2 setup in 2011 for $1800, a steal back then and today and then put down 151whp after install on the same dyno I had NA. My blower setup was as good bang for the buck as it gets. I kept my stock clutch intact, my stock head gasket, nothing had to be beefed up to run 11-13psi for years. That was not true of a similar turbo, the tq just isn't stock clutch friendly. So I've been accustomed to the know it all approach of the mentality when I ventured here.

I have put about 2 years into this upgrade rebuild plan.

I had read off putting things about retailers such as 928 and others you mentioned.

I had finally found a blower rebuilder that I could not find negative reports on. That's not a sales pitch. I have no horse in the race.

Randy Forbes chimed in with first hand experience that his Vortech dealing last time was not so great and he has first hand dealing with JB with my blower install. I thought that would back me up and change the course of dialog.

I saw your reply as go to Vortech, all the aftermarket impellers look like crap as a certain tone that put me on a defensive course that perhaps you didn't intend and that's on me. Each reply from me got worse from there.


I stand by what I replied to the OP, and that should be the takeaway. 928 and other sources have some big questionable claims and quality concerns reported over the years. I have not driven my car yet with the JB rebuild, but the pictures sure do look nice lol. I have ridden in a JB equipped car, a co-workers Marauder, and the Marauder Clubs have been using JB for awhile and have reported great results.

[pbonsalb]

I am working with 22RPD on this setup. I think you saw that in my other thread. I should be cracking 500whp on pump and with as much as 21psi on E85 550whp isn't out of the question.

Zack should do a good job with the tuning so that won’t be an issue. If you can get to 21 psi, that would be very impressive. I don’t think anyone has yet gotten past 18 or 19 psi. What size is your crank pulley? You would probably need a 6.5 to 7.0 to drive the blower that hard. The only problem with big crank pulleys is that they get in the way of the fan. This assumes you are using a Dinan/RMS dedicated drive with extended crank pulley. If you are on the stock accessory drive with the little 5.25 pulley, I’d be surprised if you can get enough traction.

Anyway, looking forward to results even if my E36 supercharger days ended a decade ago and I have been an E36 turbo owner since. I have considered putting a centrifugal on my E90M3.

[pbonsalb]

Were you aware the T-Trim was turned into the Si-Trim by Vortech? They are one in the same.

I have never read or heard this anywhere. Just that the old T and new Si were so close in power potential that Vortech discontinued the T and developed the new Ti.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Zack should do a good job with the tuning so that won’t be an issue. If you can get to 21 psi, that would be very impressive. I don’t think anyone has yet gotten past 18 or 19 psi. What size is your crank pulley? You would probably need a 6.5 to 7.0 to drive the blower that hard. The only problem with big crank pulleys is that they get in the way of the fan. This assumes you are using a Dinan/RMS dedicated drive with extended crank pulley. If you are on the stock accessory drive with the little 5.25 pulley, I’d be surprised if you can get enough traction.

Anyway, looking forward to results even if my E36 supercharger days ended a decade ago and I have been an E36 turbo owner since. I have considered putting a centrifugal on my E90M3.

I have the beefy extended 8rib crank pulley. The size I cannot remember off the top of my head but 6.5-7" sounds about right. I do know belt slippage will become more of an issue above 18psi.

[Braymond141]

Jamesons, I'm certainly rooting for you on your power goals. I am a little surprised you didn't go Ti with 21psi in mind. It would have been my pick just because it's the biggest thing that fits in the series (hah).

You're right Philip, I was wrong on that. T-Trim use a larger 3.75" Inlet. S-Trim use 3.5". The compressor maps look almost identical though which corresponds with the similar performance.