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Thread: M42T 2.1 Build Thread

  1. #51
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    The cps bracket could be made many ways. I used some cut little scraps from the bin . Utilized the already open extra hole on the front of the block and one of the lower 13mm bolts of the case. Cut down a bolt to make a pin for the open hole. Then just a basic bracket for the 13mm bolt. This allows to just take out the 13mm bolt and the bracket comes out easily. But when in place the "pin" mount allows repeatability to keep perfect sensor gap to the crank wheel. I welded mine in place with a .030" shim to make the gap.






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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by autox320 View Post
    The cps bracket could be made many ways.
    I like that cps bracket. I might even steal this design.


    Couple updates.

    First a wheel picture, because we all love wheel pictures.


    17x7.5 et41 stock contour with 225/45/17

    Untitled by w grync

    This one is with e46 control arm

    Untitled by w grync


    This one is with e36 arm. I would probably run out of the camber adjustment to get the proper alignment. e36 arms were a bit too narrow

    Untitled by w grync



    Then i started working on the subframe mounts.

    They are made of 1.75" x.120 angles with 1.25" od 1" id tubes welded on. Inside the the tubes will be threaded 1" OD 0.5" ID tube. I will be using m14x1.5 bolts to bolt it to the frame rails

    Untitled by w grync

    Untitled by w grync

    Untitled by w grync

    Untitled by w grync


    I will weld another angle on top to cap it off. It should be bombproof.

    I'll finish subframe mounts tomorrow and start mounting steering rack

    Also i will need to get to my local junkyard to pick up another e36 strut and some volvo strut tubes. The plan is to chop tops of the e36 tubes and weld the threaded top portion of the volvo tubes. I am planning to reuse my koni race dampers.

  3. #53
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    Tubes are seriously overkill . I use the same tubing at work for bush hog spindle sleeves for our roadside tractors. 1/8" wall anything is plenty on cars or as factory they just weld in the inner bolt sleeve itself directly into the rail. Rails are just boxed sheet so capping with the angle iron is a good idea. We used 1/8" also. Looking good man.

    Side note on the engine part of the build. I know your using aftermarket rods so not sure it applies. I went to order factory rod bolts to replace mine since about 300+k miles on them. Apparently the "updated" bolt sold is shorter and used in many other newer bmw engines. Found some of the originals from AutohausAZ that are longer (53mm vs 47mm). Seems like not much but when I dropped them into a rod cap to see thread engagement difference was night and day. The shorter newer bolts only took 4 turns before bottoming out and the older style longer ones 12 turns. I wouldn't trust the newer shorter bolts. I put them in a parts bin.
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  4. #54
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    Yeah the 1/8” tubes are a bit overkill. But it will see some serious power. Also its easier to weld thicker metal.


    Good advise on the rod bolts. I will go with arp bolts tho. Ill make sure to check the lengths.

    I whipped the other side mount today. Ill go grab some m14 bolts tomorrow and bolt the subframe to the frame rails and start welding the angles to the rails.


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  5. #55
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    I need some advise on suspension geometry.

    Since i shortened the subframe by approximately 3” the control arm pick up points are closer to the center of the car.

    However the e36 steering rack is still wider than e21. It means that the tie rod pick up points are around 1-1.5” wider than control arm pick up points.

    I got a feeling that it will mess my bump steer a lot to the point that i might not be able to zero it.

    Do you think should look for the shorter rack?


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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retoropak View Post
    I need some advise on suspension geometry.

    Since i shortened the subframe by approximately 3” the control arm pick up points are closer to the center of the car.

    However the e36 steering rack is still wider than e21. It means that the tie rod pick up points are around 1-1.5” wider than control arm pick up points.

    I got a feeling that it will mess my bump steer a lot to the point that i might not be able to zero it.

    Do you think should look for the shorter rack?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Just thoughts. The inner ball joint location; is it approx where the e21 inner pivot point was? If wider/narrower will effect trackwidth. My subframe is 1" wider for the inner mount points ie 1/2" per side wider holes for mounting the control arms.
    If too wide can cause unwanted oversteer and too narrow can cause understeer.
    Another way to look at it is if the mount points are too close to the center of the car your allowing the chassis to roll easier having leverage.

    Next is the rack length vs the e21, maybe just shorten the tierods would be the easiest. True equal length keeps things easier. Biggest for bumpsteer is the inner tierod has to be in plane with the inner control arm balljoint. AND the outer ends in plane tierod+control arm vs the hub. The hubside can be tricky since the hub control arm mounting can have caster angle in it. It will look "off" even when in plane. Usually just use the same equal spacing of tierod and control arm end. If keeping factory balljoints this is fixed unless using heims/spherical's.

    In the end can make a diy bumpsteer gauge to really see how close it is.
    Last edited by autox320; 06-05-2020 at 08:46 AM.
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  7. #57
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    Control arm moonting points are exactly where the e21 were but approximattely 0.5” higher. The inner tie rods are approximattely 1.5” wider. I will shorten the tie rods and see what will happen.



    I capped the subframe mounts with some .120 angle. Its not going anywhere! Thing is bombproof.

    Ill be working on steering rack and rear control arm mounts today.




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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retoropak View Post
    Control arm moonting points are exactly where the e21 were but approximattely 0.5” higher. The inner tie rods are approximattely 1.5” wider. I will shorten the tie rods and see what will happen.



    I capped the subframe mounts with some .120 angle. Its not going anywhere! Thing is bombproof.

    Ill be working on steering rack and rear control arm mounts today.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Sounds good on the control arm inner mount point. Being same location just 0.5" up moves front roll center up 0.5". Which is good, can lower the car more before suspension arm angles go beyond parallel to the ground.

    Just looked at the E21 and I did make my steering inner link same mount hole to keep things simple. You'll know when put the tie rods on if too long or short won't be able to dial in 0 toe . Fun isn't it. The trial and error of a build. . . keep beers cold and use often.

    That weld mounting is stronger than the front frame of the car no doubt. Once the subframe ties together and a upper strut bar it's the best can get without using cage work tying it together. Looks good man, beers clanking here.
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  9. #59
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    I try to keep my argon and ipa bottles full

    Here is a little steering rack mockup




    Inner ball joint behind. But with tie rod the pivot point moves about 1” further out.



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  10. #60
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    Need another 1” of steering shaft. I might try e36 or e30 one or some kind of a hybrid




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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retoropak View Post
    Need another 1” of steering shaft. I might try e36 or e30 one or some kind of a hybrid




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    Just beer thinking but could also make a custom thicker steering guibo to replace the rubber one. Should take up some thickness difference. Other than that could cut and sleeve the link like doing a rear halfshaft. Another is maybe ergonomics with the steering column could set it in further but check that angle before hand no binding.

    Longer guibo link or cross links could sleeve and use longer bolts.
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  12. #62
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    Like this spacer kit from akg when swapping from e30 to e36 rack. Example if have ability to combo the links doing it this way.

    https://www.akgmotorsport.com/instal...n-kit-gallery/
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  13. #63
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    Good point on guibo. Not much angles there should not bind anywhere.




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  14. #64
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    If can I'd get the rack as close as possible to the subframe within limits of the pinion resting on it. Brings the rack closer and gives a bit more ackerman angle.

    Just thinking since your mocking up and probably going to mount the lolipop ends. The control arm rear mounts(lolipops) should be in plane with the subframe ball joints. If lower the rear mounts vs the subframe joints adds anti-dive to the front suspension. Opposite if raise them over the subframe joints makes it pro-dive. Basically giving the frame leverage or not over the front suspension.

    A sorta simple way I found to mock up is level the front frame. Then put levels on the control arm legs when mounting. Keeps from measuring and doing math which saves time for more brews and less head scratching. I did this on the e30 by making a jig with a slider to mount the hub side control arm to hold level. Free'd up hands to mount the frame end with levels. This ensures the control arm is parallel and 0 anti-dive. Of course with dtm style ends this is a heim with spacers to allow adjustment of adding or taking away dive by moving the end up or down from centerline.

    More brews today checking out your progress man. It's tedious to get the chassis right before making a powerplant. I'm wanting to see your powerplant part of the build for sure. I finished up my lil m42 and bed the rings in over a couple outings. So far so good, and glad to have my car back after driving the lady's m42 with heavy stock flywheel
    Last edited by autox320; 06-06-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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  15. #65
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    This is the best, I’m loving this method so much more than what I have mocked up. Stealing all this, although I may need the e36 arms so I can fit my rims in.. What camber caster plate are you using?
    -John

  16. #66
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    Great progress. Can't wait to see how this turns out!

  17. #67
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    Putting this R3V post in here cause it's very relevant to M42. If making a CPS bracket for the update M44 cover it should be noted to make work with the factory ECU to put in the same offset of 114 degrees. This is the 20th tooth BTDC of the crank wheel gap. Noted in the last picture left most diagram showing TDC. This is the factory ECU TDC offset. So if put the motor crank wheel at TDC it will look like this

    20th tooth positioned at the CPS<------>crank wheel "gap" (missing teeth)<------>6th tooth from the gap is TDC (should align with arrow on oil filter housing)

    Also listed are the pinout to help if installing aftermarket ie Megasquirt standalone.


    ================================================== =====
    bmwman91
    R3VLimited
    posted:
    The Definitive M42 Crank and Cam Angle Info Thread
    12-18-2015, 12:25 AM
    So, there is a bit of info out there regarding tooth angles and whatnot for the M42, but no single cohesive place with all of it. If you read around enough, you will probably come to the conclusion that the first tooth pulse after the gap is 114 degrees BTDC, which is correct as far as the physical setup on the engine goes. Since I am planning to rock a MS3Pro ECU at some point in the next year or two, I wanted to get a clear idea about this and document it once and for all. I borrowed an oscilloscope and popped the shell apart on the 88 pin connector that plugs into the Motronic so I could directly measure the VR sensors (and yes, both are VR type). It's been too long that only the M20 guys have had nice, well defined information to work from, and it is time for the M42 to get some nerd-love!


    Which wire is which? This causes some confusion, mainly because the cam and crank sensors have the same wire colors, but one's polarity is reversed because BMW decided to swap the wires (for whatever reason). Keep in mind that this is the E30 M42, and I do not know if this changed in the E36.
    - The crank sensor uses pins 67 and 68 of the Motronic. Pin 67 takes the black wire from the crank sensor, and this is the POSITIVE sensor output. Pin 68 takes the yellow wire from the crank sensor, and this connection is GROUNDED inside the Motronic. So, pin 67 is the crank sensor signal, which by convention would be called the positive output of the sensor.
    - The cam sensor uses pins 16 and 44 of the Motronic. Pin 16 takes the yellow wire from the cam sensor, and this is the NEGATIVE sensor output. Pin 44 takes the black wire from the cam sensor, and this connection is GROUNDED inside the Motronic. So, pin 16 is the cam sensor signal, which by convention would be called the negative output of the sensor.
    unnamed.png


    I am not sure why BMW reversed the signal wires between the two sensors. For those that are going stand-alone, you have the option of getting your cam signal from pin 44 (the positive output) and then whatever conditioner circuit you are feeding that (and the crank signal) into will behave the same way. With a VR sensor, both wires will essentially provide the same signal, but one is "flipped upside-down" relative to the other. Most VR conditioner circuits are designed for the VR positive output, and will give a digital rising edge when the VR output crosses zero from positive to negative.

    The positive/negative convention is shown in the diagram below.


    Great, so that is a lot of reading about VR basics. What about the M42?

    First, here's a scope shot of two full rotations of the crankshaft, with some annotations added. The amplitude changes a lot as the crank turns because my damper wheel is either out-of-round, or just worn out, so some teeth get closer to the sensor than those on the other side of the wheel. I did some measurements at 2000RPM and 3500RPM as well, and at 3500RPM the big voltage spike peaked at around 50V. That means that at redline, the VR sensor is going to be putting out a signal that peaks at over 100V.
    unnamed (1).png

    Here it is zoomed in a bit, with the important teeth marked.
    unnamed (2).png

    And here's a fun little graphic showing what is what and the relationship between moving parts with respect to the cam and crank sensors. Note that the cam lobes are not to scale or anything; they are just for fun to illustrate the general idea.
    unnamed (3).png


    Note:
    This is all based on photos of mine from over the years and a lot of online image searching. Thankfully it all seems to agree with existing information, as well as the oscilloscope measurements. If you find an error or think that you see an error, please let me know so that I can see if a correction is needed.



    I plan to do a pretty in-depth look at ignition coil dwell times too, since that is also a critical parameter. That will involve more oscilloscope action with the goal of determining the factory dwell times for the coils (both for the M42 coils, and the M54 coils that many of us run with our COP conversion). In a year or two (or whenever I get my ass into gear and install an aftermarket ECU) I will try to document all of the factory equipment (thermistors, idle control valve, etc) so that others will not have to spend weeks and weeks scratching their heads.
    Last edited by bmwman91; 10-31-2018, 09:55 AM.

    ========================================
    original thread link
    https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...ead#post341864



    So also wanted to add about aftermarket and cheaper sensors.
    Beyond this for CPS usage it's been known to use a OEM BMW CPS. But I bought a cheapo CPS "Bosch" one for 70$ instead. Some in the past didn't read correctly on Ohms ie were higher than stock 550 ohms. But this one I just bought from AutohausAZ read at 550 ohms. So what.....I noted a issue and why it would probably work but not like OEM. It's magnet face is a rectangle to be in plane with the wheel teeth. The cheaper sensors this magnet is 90deg out of phase. Pics are worth thousand words. Since I made my own mount I easily changed the bolt 90deg to make this sensor work on my car.

    Real BOSCH OEM BMW sensor on the Left; Cheaper 70$ "Bosch" probably China made on the Right.


    So if using a cheapo sensor Ohm out and see if 550 ohms, then make sure to mount in correct orientation. I'm using the 70$ Bosch sensor and when mounted correctly it works just fine.
    Last edited by autox320; 08-14-2020 at 02:05 PM.
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  18. #68
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    So finally i got the needed funds to start the motor build.

    I will be going with 86mm wisecos 9.5:1 compression with 0.047” gasket.

    I will be shooting for 1.2mm quench.
    Zero deck the piatons and the 0.047” gasket will give me the needed quench.

    I will be using either the cx racing or eagle rods. Both are Chinese the only difference is that eagles are QC’d in the States whereas the cxracing are shipped straight from China.



    And now my question is what should be the rod/wrist pin clearance?

    Cx racing rods are 22.01mm or .867”
    Eagles are 22mm or 0.866”

    The wiseco wrist pins are .866 or 22mm

    If cx will be too lose i will have to rebush em.
    If eagles are too tight i can always ask my machinist to hone em to size.

    Other than that i am wrapping up my e36 front end swap.

    I need to order some slr adjustable lollipops and weld the lollipop mounts to the frame rail.




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    Last edited by Retoropak; 01-17-2021 at 02:47 AM.

  19. #69
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    Oh my. My last post was from september.

    I finally got some family, house and work project under control so i can refocus on the e21

    I got the front coilovers done. I also got the adjustable lollipops to mount the control arms. I just need to weld it all together.
    I also pulled rear quarters/fenders almost an inch out. I can fit some 245s now with a bit of a camber. There is almost close to 2-2.5" of travel left at my ride height before it start touching the fender. I might use some bigger bump stops if it will ever rub.

    The question is will the 245 tire put the power down with let say two or three degrees of camber as well as 235 with one or one an a half degree?

    The thing i might need to run that much camber with 245s and i think i can do close to 0 camber with 235s without much trouble. So which one would give me more traction given the same tire model


    Also i need wheel suggestion i am looking for 17x7.5 or 17x8 et 38-50 fronts and 17x8.5-9 et42-60 rears

    I can always use contours or ds2's but also looking for some aftermarket options.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retoropak View Post
    Oh my. My last post was from september.

    I finally got some family, house and work project under control so i can refocus on the e21

    I got the front coilovers done. I also got the adjustable lollipops to mount the control arms. I just need to weld it all together.
    I also pulled rear quarters/fenders almost an inch out. I can fit some 245s now with a bit of a camber. There is almost close to 2-2.5" of travel left at my ride height before it start touching the fender. I might use some bigger bump stops if it will ever rub.

    The question is will the 245 tire put the power down with let say two or three degrees of camber as well as 235 with one or one an a half degree?

    The thing i might need to run that much camber with 245s and i think i can do close to 0 camber with 235s without much trouble. So which one would give me more traction given the same tire model


    Also i need wheel suggestion i am looking for 17x7.5 or 17x8 et 38-50 fronts and 17x8.5-9 et42-60 rears

    I can always use contours or ds2's but also looking for some aftermarket options.
    IMO should be ok with up to 3deg rear camber. If drag racing maybe not but once rolling should be ok. I tend to stay in the 2.25-2.5deg range if possible though. Check your rear toe at ride height. 2mm per side should be good, if want more forward traction could increase it up to 4mm per side toe in for more forward traction.

    Check Apex wheels IMO best in the business. https://www.apexraceparts.com/
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  21. #71
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    I did lollipop mount today. All tack welded just need to test fit the wheels with the coilovers and will do the other side later this coming week

    Mounts are pretty much 2x2 square tube with i believe .120 wall with one side cut off so it can fit over the frame rail. I used 5/8 tube tapped for m10 blots that will locate the lollipops. Tubes are welded to the 3/16 plate that will be welded to the C channel that will be welded to the frame rails. That way i will be able to lay a solid weld all around between the plate and the tube.
    Control arms will have a 1 degree angle towards the front of the car. If needed i can always use up to 3/16" spacer between the lollipop and the mount to decrease this angle.

    ill take more photos of the mount itself before i weld everything together.


    Coming back to the wheel topic it looks like 8.5 et40 is the max will be bale to fit in the back without interfering with trailing arms. Right now I got maybe 5mm clearance. 9" wheel will not fit under the stock fender without notching trailing arms. I might go APEX route if I will be bale to fit 8" et20 wheel up front.

    E46 arms and lollipop mount by w grync,
    E46 arms and lollipop mount by w grync,
    E46 arms and lollipop mount by w grync,

  22. #72
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    Before welding that up make sure in the same plane. Determines anti/pro dive. Can do this by first level the frame of the car itself. Then making a support for the wheel hub ball joint area. Level on the control arm leg out from there to subframe. Then level on frame rail part of the control arm. I used tape on mini bubble levels. I've a pic from doing the M3 to visualize what I mean using levels if do it this way.

    Another easier way is clamp a piece of flat steel to the bottom of the subframe hole mount area that extends to touch the frame where you intend to mount the rear heim of the control arm. This will guide where the mount surfaces are in plane.



    e46 control arm in plane.jpg

    mock up front
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  23. #73
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    I used this little gizmo.

    I set it on the frame rail and set it to zero and then placed it on the control arm and adjusted the angles. There is no many flat spots on the e46 arms that you can place a level.

    Control arm angles by w grync,

    Control arm angles by w grync, on Flickr
    Last edited by Retoropak; 01-17-2021 at 02:50 AM.

  24. #74
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    Cool i've one of those magnetic "cubes" also. Just wanted to be sure man cause does change how it behaves even if 1/4" off. Yeah ditto on the flat spots available. Looking good man.

    Btw, one layer of 3/16" stitched onto the rails is plenty. I used 1/8" on the rails and some 3/16 to box in my heim mounts. Factory e30/e36/e46 rails at that location are less than 1/8" thick with nutserts welded in behind to give the bolt holes in the rail. Surface area helps when thinking ltw in this case. Say a strip of plate boxed 4-6" long is plenty strong attaching to the rails. Assuming you've non rusted out sub rails to begin with If remember our e21 rails were about gone had to remake them. Used 1/8".
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  25. #75
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    M42T 2.1 Build Thread

    Pictures of the lollipop mounts as promised. I had a bit of "oh shit" moment when i realized that 7.5" et41 front contour would hit my coilover spring. After thinking about getting lower offset wheels and fender flares etc i came to concluion that I will need to go for 6" springs to move the perch higher to clear the tire and wheel.
    There is absolutely no way that the 8" et20 apex will fit under the stock fender. I will have to do some pulling with the contours and 225/45/15


    Since i will be buying new springs what rates would you go for? Car will be 80-90% street car 10% autocoss and once every 5 years track?

    Originally i was running 350lb front 450lb rear with stock front sway and no rear swaybar. I run koni race single adjustables on all four corners. Ride was super firm. I took it for 400 mile round trip ride and it was a bit too much, however on the shorter rides it was totally fine.

    So this time i am running totally different geometry up front, slightly different geometry in the back and also i am planning to run less spring and more swaybar.
    I was thinking 300lb front and 250lbor 300lb rear and adjust accordingly to make it fairly neutral.

    Lollipop mount by w grync,
    Lollipop mount by w grync,
    Lollipop mount by w grync,
    Last edited by Retoropak; 01-17-2021 at 11:34 PM.

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