540i w/ VF. Oil everywhere!

[pbonsalb]

Does the drain have a slight downward angle the whole way? It’s gravity so it won’t flow up hill. I would not worry about the point at which it enters the pan. The hose can act as a reservoir. Many of us with turbos have oil entering below the resting oil level in the pan. With that entry rather than into the dipstick tube there is no need to modify the tube — that is an E36 thing (return to stock CCV drain into dipstick tube rather than drill/tap the pan).

-8 should be fine. It is close to 1/2”. I used 1/2 inch. 3/8 NPT adequate. I doubt that is your problem. You could insert a tee in the drain line with a hose going up and put a breather on that as a vent to improve the flow. Some with smoking turbos do it. But I have not read of anyone with a Vortech needing to do that.

You might want to pull the blower and inspect the drain fitting. I think it is only 1/4 NPT but cannot remember for sure. Many years ago it was a brass fitting. Vortech later came up with a stainless fitting. It is sort of funny looking as I recall. Try to find a picture of one.

Inspect the orientation of your drain and feed. Vortech has recommendations as to the where they are fitted. Can’t put a drain on top, for example. I forget the range of acceptable clocking but it might be between 5 and 7 o’clock for the drain like it is for most turbos.

Might as well spend some time checking all this out, but it is possible that the seals replaced in 2016 are leaking again. I wore seals out prematurely over spinning the blower or overtensioning the belt in an effort to run more boost without the proper pulley set (needed a crank pulley bigger than 6.00).

[Sovereign540]

The drain is flat leaving the supercharger and going into the oil pan. I was looking last night and I really think it could be routed more downward into the pan instead of making the big bend that it does. There's really no room to put anything other than a 90* fitting on the blower end of the hose so that end will always be a little flat.

The drain is as straight down as it can be. There are three ports on the bottom and this is the most straight down. They're 1/2" NPT I want to say. The oil feed fitting is on top and it is a small diameter with a crush washer for sealing.

I plan to reach out to Vortech to see if they have any advice. I read their general installation instructions and their instructions for installing in an LT1 4th gen firebird. Nothing popped out as being different than what I am seeing on my car. But, they didn't give specifics like I'm looking for either.

I replaced the seals back in January on the blower.

Thanks

[Sovereign540]

I talked with Vortech today. They said the drain hose size and size of the fittings is fine. They use 3/8 NPT fittings in their kits and recommend at least a 1/2" diameter hose. They did recommend I get the oil drain location above oil level. If oil isn't able to drain from the blower, it will fill the gear case and push out through the impeller seal. Given what I told them about the CCV hose being removed, they felt I was on the correct path. After all, there's only so many places oil can come from on these setups.

With that said, how can I determine if I'm above oil level now? If I'm not, how high do I need to go? Anyone know how the VF kit originally intended the oil to be returned to the pan?

I plan to pull the drain hose off the engine and inspect it to verify it's clean on the inside and not causing any blockage before I consider any other drain locations.

Thanks.

[pbonsalb]

Maybe you can judge based on the dipstick and tube. Oil level is lower with engine running and pumping oil.

You could unscrew the hose from the fitting and with the fitting turned level, watch to see if oil pours out or just drips out or does not come out at all.

We used to find with E36 that if there was not a continuous downward slope, the oil could back up. We were draining into the dip stick tube CCV stem that was above the top of the pan and thus above the oil level. I understand the theory that draining below the oil level seems like it would not work, but at least with turbos on E36, it works. Maybe a Vortech uses more oil than a turbo but I doubt it.

A vent in the oil drain line could help.

[Sovereign540]

The good news is the oil drain is above oil level both running and with the engine off. The drain hose also appears to be in good condition internally. The bad news is this now leaves me wondering, what the hell? I was really hoping this might be an area where things weren't right so I could potentially make an improvement. While I was under the car, I did rotate the fitting in the oil pan up more so the drain is more downward the whole way. I'm not sure if that will help. I may investigate different fittings as I believe I can route the drain in a manner that's more direct and downward the whole way. I may even increase the hose size. I'm not sure if this would help though. This keeps up and I may just change to a V3 supercharger so it's self contained or LS swap the car .

Thanks

[philly98540]

Replace the seal again. Maybe it got messed up somehow.

[Sovereign540]

Rotating the drain up a little so as to make it go more downhill continuously didn't help. I would have been very surprised if it had, but I wanted to try and to be methodical. This leaves me with either the new impeller seal not sealing or the oil is coming from the engine via the intake some how. That, too, would be really weird in my opinion but I haven't ruled it out. My thoughts for testing this are to pull the blow off valve out of the intake tract and simply let it vent to atmosphere. That's the last connection between the intake tract. If I'm still getting oil after this is removed, it has to be coming out of the supercharger itself. I still find it very strange that I'm getting oil inside the air intake both before and after the blower.

Thoughts on removing the BOV from the intake?

I'm still venting the CCV to atmosphere currently and plan to continue until I finish testing.

Also, I finally have an air compressor. Any reason to do a leak down test while trying to resolve this issue?

Really hope I can get this resolved. I'd like to take the care to Technica Motorsports to have them tune it and to see what kind of power it makes.

Thanks

[philly98540]

I think if you CCV is vented to atmosphere, your blower seal must be leaking oil. There is no other source.

Once the oil is inside the blower, it gets all inside the intake tract and gets everywhere. It can even get into the supercharger intake pipe when the BOV farts back to the intake side.

[Sovereign540]

I disassembled the supercharger again last night. The backside of the impeller was coated in oil. Pretty sure it's coming in through the seal as Philly suspected. I couldn't tell much though as the seal appears undamaged at the lip. All I do know is the oil is much worse now than before I performed the rebuild.

Here's what the washer that is supposed to form the seal with the seal looks like. I'm wondering if this could be way it wouldn't hold the oil back. I doubt this can be fixed and the washer will just need to be replaced.


The only other area that might be a problem is the lip for the casing of the seal. If you'll notice on the left side, it appears to be turned in more than the right side. I don't think this is a problem though as the seal itself moves in and out just fine. I drove the seal in with a socket that fit the seal and the bore hole very well.


Thoughts?

Thanks

[pbonsalb]

I think you have gone full circle here and are back to rebuilding or at least resealing the blower. It’s a Vortech V2, which has not been supplied on a BMW kit in probably close to 10 years, so a rebuild seems reasonable.

[Sovereign540]

Sure, but the blower was rebuilt in 2016 by Vortech and again by me this January. I didn't replace the washer then, only the seals and bearings. The washer is smooth but not worn evenly. I hate throwing parts at something is my problem. I'd much rather take the time to understand what's happening so it can be fixed once and for all.

Thank you!

[philly98540]

I can't see you latest pics on here. Can you re-post? Likely something going on to make it leak.

[Sovereign540]

Try these links please

https://i.imgur.com/8E7JTHI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zcnoeSh.jpg

[philly98540]

Can only see the first one. Access denied for the second. Anyway, first one looks like that washer is pretty scored up. I have yet to take my blower wheel off, so do not know what the sealing surfaces are, but if that washer face is a sealing surface, that looks suspect for sure and should be replaced. Maybe some more pics would help me understand what going on in there.

[Sovereign540]

Thanks, Chris. The washer is smooth but obviously worn. I have no idea what to do about the second picture. This forum is by far the worst when it comes to posting pictures. I have never had trouble like I have here.

[philly98540]

First set of pics are now showing up LOL. It looks like the actual seal lip rides the shaft not the washer. It looks like the washer maybe for thrust forces. If its worn, maybe the position of the shaft can move in/out and cause leaks sooner? Maybe tear up the lip of the seal a bit? I'm not sure though. Any pics of the shaft surface where the seal runs? Is it grooved?

[Sovereign540]

Glad the pics are working now, lol.

No, the design is for the washer to seal against the lip of the seal. The seal doesn't contact the impeller shaft at all. It's not even close. The center of the seal is part of the gold/yellow metal casing. The washer does act as a spacer, too, which is why the seal is spring loaded. It's a weird setup to me. I'm not sure why it doesn't seal to the impeller shaft. I believe later designs do, but I'm not certain on that. It works though just not on my car :/

Thanks

[Braymond141]

All Vortech seal that way, even the new ones.

That mechanical seal doesn't appear to be OEM to me. Only Superchargerrebuilds sells the real thing. Any other reseller is selling whatever they found that looks the same.

The washer is fine. Even when they develop a groove in them they still seal.

[Sovereign540]

It's an extended range seal that I picked up from 928 motorsports. I've ordered the same thing along with a new washer from superchargerrebuilds.com. It should all arrive by week's end I believe. Maybe I'll get everything back together this weekend and find out if this resolves my issues.

Thanks

[Braymond141]

It's an extended range seal that I picked up from 928 motorsports. I've ordered the same thing along with a new washer from superchargerrebuilds.com. It should all arrive by week's end I believe. Maybe I'll get everything back together this weekend and find out if this resolves my issues.

Thanks

Yeah, fairly certain you found your issue. One of the reasons I hate all these aftermarket rebuilders. They make up so much bullshit to sell products.

[Sovereign540]

I'll be interested to see if the extended range seal from superchargerrebuilds is any different than the one from 928. It looked the same but cost a lot less.

I really hope replacing the washer is the answer cause it's been annoying. I'm also waiting to get this resolved before I take the car to Technica to see what power it makes and if there's anything they can get out of it via tuning.

Thanks

[philly98540]

Interesting info on that seal! I never had mine apart. Let’s see what the new seal looks like when you get it.

[Sovereign540]

It'll most likely look the same. Given the price difference, I'm betting 928 was reselling seals bought from superchargerrebuilds.

I quite often dislike the USPS. The parts are now scheduled for Monday.

[Sovereign540]

Time for an update! I broke the seal I order from superchargerrebuilds about ten minutes after I took it out of the package. So I said to hell with it and sent the whole thing to them for resealing. Finally got it back and nothing's changed. It still leaks. I'm certain it's coming from the impeller seal. This got me thinking about the washer I've pictured above. The mechanical seal rests and seals against the face towards the outside edge where the wear is shown. How does the center of the washer prevent oil from escaping? The shaft goes through the center but doesn't seal around this washer. The impeller wheel presses onto the shaft and holds this washer down against the seal. My current thinking is the oil is passing through the center of the washer and coming out between the impeller wheel and top side of the washer. I'm considering taking the impeller wheel off and gluing the washer onto the bottom with RTV. Thoughts?

Thanks

[Braymond141]

Time for an update! I broke the seal I order from superchargerrebuilds about ten minutes after I took it out of the package. So I said to hell with it and sent the whole thing to them for resealing. Finally got it back and nothing's changed. It still leaks. I'm certain it's coming from the impeller seal. This got me thinking about the washer I've pictured above. The mechanical seal rests and seals against the face towards the outside edge where the wear is shown. How does the center of the washer prevent oil from escaping? The shaft goes through the center but doesn't seal around this washer. The impeller wheel presses onto the shaft and holds this washer down against the seal. My current thinking is the oil is passing through the center of the washer and coming out between the impeller wheel and top side of the washer. I'm considering taking the impeller wheel off and gluing the washer onto the bottom with RTV. Thoughts?

Thanks

The impeller cannot be attached to the high speed shaft without heat. Everything stacked together should keep an oil tight seal. Only the mechanical seal is capable of leaking. The seal washer also presses up firmly against the impeller shaft ledge.

You need to pressure test the Vortech gearbox and check for leaks at the impeller seal. Vortech has blamed Dinan for using too small of an oil drain line causing the impeller seal to leak. Other than that being a possibility with your VF kit, this is still probably a CCV issue. I bet if you switched to a self contained V3, you'd still be seeing oil in the intake (I know, because I went down that path too).