Electrical gremlins galore

[Cascadia]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum, and have been reading through a lot of E39 electrical related posts these past few days, trying to solve my electrical problems. First, some background:
2002 525i wagon, just bought it 2 days ago at an auction. 120K miles, 5 speed, good carfax and service history. Runs and drives excellent, no problems there. I mainly drive (and wrench on) older cars but liked all the creature comforts on this car!

These things do not work:
Power windows. The passenger side front window will operate from that switch only. No other windows work.
Driver's power seat. Headrest control does work though. Passenger seat works fine.
Blower fan, even on the default high setting. All of the climate control buttons will light, and the display is fine, just not the blower.
Remote mirrors.
Steering wheel power adjustment.
Central locking from the door or key fob. Center dash push switch will only lock passenger front door.

Passenger side brake light.
P side rear turn signal.

Driver side front turn signal.
D side angel eyes
P side headlight low beam.
D side headlight high beam.
D side foglight

Radio works fine, interior lighting, etc. Dash display all working but the ABS/Brake/DSC is lit, which I read can be a whole other thing?

I've looked over the fuses at the glove box and above the battery, I don't see any bad ones.
The battery terminal was stamped March of 2012 so I replaced it, figuring it was near the end anyway, but no difference. I turned the key to position 2 while the battery was out, I did not bridge the terminals.
I disconnected the wiring to the ignition switch and took a look at the pins, they all looked bright and clean. The red paint on the set screws was intact.
I checked the grounds in the engine bay, they are tight. This is a very clean car and any wiring that I've seen looks good. The car looks good in the nooks and crannies, doesn't look like it was abused or trashed, and the service history is consistent, and mainly done at the dealer.

Now I supposed that it could be that each one of these problems have to be addressed individually, but I'm hoping that someone may have had a similar set of problems and traced it down to one bad Bus? Fingers crossed.

[Cascadia]

I think I may have found a clue!
I removed both cabin filter assemblies to clean them up and also wanted to get a peek into the electrical box underneath the one on the passenger side. ONE (!) of the hex bolts that hold the cover on was missing, and of course it was the one right beneath where the cowl drains. Once I got the cover off, it all actually looked alright in there, but I wonder if it was just acting as a passageway to inside the car?
Soooo....pulled the passenger seat out, removed the thresholds, and pulled the carpet back. Found water, a good amount, and some corrosion on the junction box shown in the pics, and more on the lower level.

So far this is the closest I've come to a smoking gun. Can some of the E39 electrical experts confirm that the power supply in this area matches up to the faults I mentioned above? Thanks in advance.

[mattmar1]

that corrosion is the result of water incursion, wont get any better. looks like it will prolly clean up though without any major repairs. water in the under passenger seat fuse box usually comes from the rear half, rear door soundproofing and a coupla ohter places. ive seen ones a lot worse than yours. i dont think the ebox can drain in to the passenger compartment, hopefully another on here can chime on with a more definite answer. the ABS/DSC/Brake lites are a common failure, getting your hands on a BMW specific scanner is needed to see what the car is telling you. itll offset the cost of just one occasion of having to get the codes read and youll have it always for any other issues. a generic OBDII scanner wont get you past the engine.
welcome to the forums, lots on here who are willing to render assistance to other members.

[edjack]

There was a recent post about an air vent in the firewall behind the E-box leaking into the passenger side. Since you have the carpet out, you s/b able to detect if there is a water stain from this vent.

Is the carpet padding wet?

The power panel looks pretty rasty. Disconnect the battery (after 16 min) and clean up the assembly. Disconnect the push terminals. Remove the fuses. Tag and photograph everything before disconnecting/disassembly.

Probably a good idea to remove the panel to properly clean it.

[Cascadia]

Didn't notice any tell tale water stains, but now that the carpet is pulled back I'll be able to at least do some leak testing.
Before disconnecting the power I tested all of the fuses, and they all work, so that's good. Carpet padding was soaked, and there was lots of standing water. I squeezed it out of the foam and took a shop-vac to all the water. It's out sitting in the sun now.
I disconnected all of the terminals, and pulled the box. Only the lower two comb connectors needed replacing, part number 61138353734, I was able to get those ordered through FCPEuro. Gave the box and all hardware some light time in the sandblasting cabinet. In the meantime, the car will have all week to dry out.

[86 shark]

On the driver's power seat and loss of steering wheel adjustment.

The seat switch has a tendency to break off at the connector , easy fix.
When it does, it loses the circuit that continues up to the wheel adjustment, so it kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

Hardest part is getting off the 18" plastic trim with it's 3 screws.
Take off plastic trim, pull off gently the control buttons and you will probably see the seat switch has a broken connector side, tape it back together and maybe use some mechanics wire to wire the 2 halves together.

Better than new!

[riverdadd]

I too had water intrusion and the associated corrosion that results, Mine was from a sunroof leak that followed the A pillar into the floor. I too had lighting issues and it turned out the LCM was corroded. I was able to clean the circuit board with contact cleaner and a tooth brush. I would look at the LCM as it is mounted in a cavity beside the glove box in the A pillar. also check your ground pods ( brown wires) and clean the power distribution bus , as mentioned above. I have attached a few picts of my issues. Good news is this is all repairable, as I have done and am enjoying trouble free operation... knock wood fuse 2.jpgfuse panel clean.jpgLCM corrosion on PCB.jpglcm.jpg

[bikertrash2001]

I had BAD water intrusion on the both floorboards. When I took the passenger seat out and lifted the carpet, there was a lake under there. When I took the cover off the electrical box under the front passenger side, there was actually mud in there. Notice how there are two levels to that thing? The lower level 2 on yours looks bad. Those wires on mine were completely disconnected. You need to take the nuts off those and clean them and make sure they are still connected. I had to order a used box off Ebay. Mine was shot. Also, the black cover that all the red wires are coming out from underneath needs to be looked at. There are several connector tie points in the box looking thing (see my awesome PS pic) that can get rusted too. I did a lot of resoldering and all of my electrical works great again. My water problem was the vapor barriers behind the rear door panels. If you take the door panels off, you either notice pollen and dirt on the door frame or have a rotted door panel. I sealed the barriers with butyl rubber sealant and so far after several good downpours, no more water. Capture.JPG

[riverdadd]

I also had an airbad sensor that crapped out because of the water intrusion..... do you have any airbag errors or lights? here is the sensor i had to replaceabs sensor.jpg

[Cascadia]

Thanks for the photos and info! I'll check the LCM. It looks like the airbag sensor was mounted high enough that it escaped harm, same with the connector tie points box over by the sill, I removed most of them to wipe them down and check for continuity - all good.
In my pics you can see the box after it's been cleaned up, and the loose connectors after I removed it. The lower two were bad, one was completely separated, I have new comb connectors on order. Glad that I got it there before things got REALLY bad!


Attachment 654497Attachment 654498

[Cascadia]

Alright, got my new parts and got everything buttoned up. The floors and carpet underlayment are completely dry. EVERY single issue that I mentioned earlier WORKS now, however, I've got a new problem!
I have no dash display whatsoever! When you turn the key it's completely dead with the sole exception of the airbag light. Also, the radio doesn't power on, it worked fine before. But more troublesome - the car won't start. It cranks fine, just won't start. I went and checked all the fuses again, they all seem fine. The battery had been disconnected all week. The passenger seat is still out of the car, I can't imagine that could have anything to do with it but thought I should mention that.

Any ideas?

[Chedley]

It sounds like you hit the classical "crank but no start" problem on the E39. In your case it seems it may be caused by the prolonged disconnection of the battery, as your car started fine before.
First thing: fully recharge the battery then reconnect it. Then google "e39 "crank but no start" geargrinder"....

[Cascadia]

Thanks, the battery's only a couple of weeks old but I put a charger on it and will check back in the morning.<br>Seems odd though that the cluster display wouldn't come on, that can't take much juice to come on, right? I tested the parking lights, they're all working now, and the cluster backlit illumination came on in tandem with it. <br>I've read that some BMW's from this era have an immobilizer function that will prevent starting? Is that a possibility? Maybe explains why the radio is also not powering on? I tried with both key fobs, which by the way, won't remotely lock or unlock. But the central locking does work with the key in the door lock.

[Chedley]

OK...So, did you read this thread (postings #63 and above) . It sounds exactly like your problem.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2397348-No-Start-No-error-codes-after-removing-battery-and-charging-it/page3

The key fobs not remotely locking/unlocking could be they need to be recharged and reinitialized. But that is another problem I think. First, let's get the car starting again..

[Cascadia]

Interesting, thank you. I get the feeling that INPA is in my future with this car. Like I said earlier, I'm used to wrenching on old cars (60s, 70s) - this new fangled stuff is beyond my skill set.

[riverdadd]

U will thank yourself when you get INPA. and have it all setup... cannot work on these cars without a proper scanner.

- - - Updated - - -

Look at my post in FUZZY530i thread " Never ends" post # 19..... his post is just a few down on the fist page, right below yours

In that post I detail what I did to get up and running with INPA

- - - Updated - - -

first page.... damn autocorrect!!

[Cascadia]

Here's an update. The battery charged overnight, and read 12.8V, but I still have the dead cluster and the crank but no start issue. I let the car sleep, then disconnected the battery, waited 10 minutes, they turned the key to position 2, left it there for a few minutes, then removed the key and connected the battery. No difference.
I let the car sleep once more while I set about getting the seat installed back into the car. Hooked it up and connected the battery, no difference. I checked all of the fuses again, and removed and reinstalled the 3 responsible for the instrument cluster. Also checked the fuses for the DME, they all look good.
Not sure where to go from here besides paying for someone with diagnostic equipment to get a closer look to what's going on. I'd really like to be out there driving the car, especially now that all of those initial electrical gremlins are working again!
Any last minute suggestions are appreciated!

[Chedley]

Definitely, you need to get hold of a BMW specific scanner. INPA is recommended, to properly diagnose and fix the problem.

[Cascadia]

Ok, some MORE clues!
It appears that fuses 22, 24, and 25 have no power feeding them. These 3 control the fuel pump, cluster, info display, and radio - basically every problem that I'm having right now.
Can anyone tell me where the wiring for this block of fuses leads? I'm hoping that because the 3 of them are right in a row on my fuse block that they might all share the same feed? All of the wiring diagrams links in previous posts are dead links.
I tested for power at the bus on the floor before I buttoned things up. Hope I don't have to remove the seat again!

[Chedley]

Check all the electric wiring on the car, most important the ground connections -they are typically brown colored-.
Check all the fuses. Get hold of the wiring diagram of your car, and the user manual and TIS (https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/).

[Cascadia]

Wow, great link, thanks!
The puzzle is that the issues I'm having now weren't problems before. Somewhere along the way something changed, but what? It's frustrating because all of the previous problems with the car got solved so easily!

[Cascadia]

Alright, well, that link you posted REALLY helped me, I was able to trace those fuses in question to a faulty connector, which I had inadvertently screwed up while I was dealing with the other connections. So, total operator error. Everything works perfectly now.
Thanks for letting me talk this problem through, and thanks Chedley, for hanging in there with me.
NOW I'm going to get out there and start driving this car!

[Chedley]

Glad you have it all figured out. Drive safe now....

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

But did you figure out exactly where the water came into the cabin? Never heard of the vent you mentioned before., but there is the pass through for the battery cable. Usually, water comes into these cars either from the sunroof drain tubes, if so, on the passenger side, you would also have issues with the LCM as water runs down right through it. The other intrusive pass through would be through the doors vapor barriers, typically due to bad reinstallation procedures after replacing the horrible constantly breaking window regulators. The vapor barriers are held on by butyl rubber, if the old stuff was not removed and replaced with new butyl rubber, the vapor barrier will eventually peel itself loose, air pressures vary inside the door shell, so this could be a reason they come loose, these doors are designed to pass lots of water through them when it rains. This is generally normal in most cars, if you park underneath a tree a lot, lots of debris makes its way into the doors, and if you don't normally clear the weep holes at the doors corners, in a strong rainstorm, water will pool up inside the door, when it reaches the section where the butyl rubber let go of the vapor barrier, water will spill into the cabin.
About two or three years ago, I had water coming into the right rear floor, I had done the regulator replacement on that door about a year and a half before, when I investigated, I was surprised to see that the vapor barrier had held on properly, so with the door open, I doused the window with running water from a hose, and the water was running in through the doors cable to the inner handle. I sealed it with dumdum <<< butyl rubber, I made a 3/16" string of dumdum, wrapped it around the cable, mashed it onto the inside of the vapor barrier, and did so on the other side too, after I redid the top section of the barrier that I undid to do the cable from the inside. Have not had anymore water issues.
The sunroof drains, they can come undone if they get clogged up with debris, especially if you park a lot under a tree. Keep the sunroof rails clean! They get full of dirt and debris, if the drain does not pop loose, and is clogged, water will pool up in the rails and eventually spill over.

[Cascadia]

I did a water test while I had everything pulled apart. The sunroof drained correctly, so then I took it outside and washed the car, spending extra time with the hose on the passenger side. I got inside and got my face right up to the sill, didn't see one drop.
My theory is that in the past the previous owner had a water problem, got it fixed, but never got under the carpet to dry it out? Just a guess. I'll be keeping a close watch on that area going forward, and now I know how to get in there pretty easily.