Buy a cheap BMW as second car, drive it to and from track, focus on seat time? Seems like a popular idea. Is E36 M3 the answer? Not anymore. Now in 2019 prices are going upward from $10,000 even for sad examples with 150k miles. And this does not include required subframe reinforcements and unavoidable repairs on day 1.
At the same time, the rest of 3-series depreciated heavily, including many newer models. A lot of them can be had for $10k or much less, leaving room for repairs and safety upgrades. In theory, newer cars won't have subframe issues at all, and can be found with much less miles. Am I missing something?
With the budged of $10k, the choice is wide:
E36 325i + $7k for various refreshes (e.g. subframe, cooling system, seats, harness, half-cage)
E46 330i
E90 328i, 330i, 335i
E82 128i or 135i
Which one would you choose as a dedicated (but still street legal) track car?
I picked up a 128i for this purpose, and already have an E36. I wanted something way more refined as I wanted to do TNiA and PM session track days. The thought of 1hr to work, 1hr to track, 1hr on track, and 1hr home didn't sit well with me in an old E36.
That being said, my E36 will be much faster than my E82. Don't care though, as it's open lapping and not competitive.
330(C)i, solid choice, but also requires sub frame reinforcement if really beating it up on track. And good examples are getting harder to find.
128i and 135i, both solid choices. Some say the 135i has brake and overheating issues. My friends 135i has tons of HARD laps on it, and no track related issues. (His oil temps run on the high side, but within spec.)
I think if you want to split hairs and go with the simplest and most reliable of the 3, I'd go 128i also.
E36 non-m is the best weapon for the money. I would consider a NC miata before a 330i/128i IMO. Give me the cheapest entry cost and easiest to upgrade any day of the week.
The benefit of an e36 is that you can assume the entirety of the car is trash and spend the money fixing it instead of buying a more expensive car and hoping it is in good enough shape.
E36 with refreshed suspension, rollbar, seats, stripped, flared, tired and then easily upgrade the engine when you feel it is sorted (s52/s54/ls).
It is also not fun to assume that the entirety of the car is trash.
Looked at the prices again. E36 may not be the cheapest anymore, or at least not much cheaper. For example, sfbay craigslist has 2 manual 325is (costing $4000 and $6000 and looking sad), 7 manual 330i/ci ($3000-$7000), and 10 manual E90 328i below $10,000 (and about 200 automatic cars).
My choice goes for an e46 chassis. Plenty on the market. Cheap. Good looking. Stiff. And a car that can easily reach a 50/50 front/rear weight balance.
Lee
1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar
From your list, I'd probably go with an E46 330 because they can be found for dirt in good condition and still a ton of aftermarket support.
But I'd check into the 86 twins, the FRS can be had awful cheap with a giant aftermarket.
The not fun part is assuming the track car you are using IS reliable and then the inevitable happens as you continuosly find weaknesses to address instead of dealing with it all at once IMO.
I think you are proving e36s are getting harder to find, not more valuable. From somewhat recent experience, all of the e46s I found were more than double the cost of similar condition e36 non-m. An extra $3k in the budget to sort suspension is more important if you are not buying a dual duty car from my experience.
At the end of the day, miata/vette/e36/e46 would all be great track only cars and it comes down to what you find local for a great price.
Dedicated track car makes peoples comments with regards to looks and comfort completely tertiary as the most important items will be mechanical condition and/or how much money is left in the budget to address/improve mechanical condition and safety.
e46 330 variants!
I love the e36, but I find that the E46 is just a little better (to me anyway). Skip the 325 and 328 and get the 330. Coupe or Sedan both are great cars. Check out the Spec E46 guys they are turning some quick times! I am currently driving my car in TT5 and having a blast. They work well with basic tires and brakes, then upgrade your suspension as you go. up grade your safety equipment and have a blast! Leave the motor stock and it will serve you well. I have under your budget in my car as it sits right now and could use a couple thousand to add some good stuff!
Be realistic with yourself. Do you want a street car that you drive at the track or do you want a track car you MAY drive on the street? I don't care anything about driving my track car on the street. It's a great track weapon but a poor street car at this point.
Here is my build thread: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...into-a-SpecE46
IMGP6934_2.JPG
Chasing down M3s is fun in your 330ci!
I am a bit surprised to see so many answers suggesting E46. To me, that's the worst of all of the options.
The E46 is the heaviest and has the least reliable motor.
Though I am biased, I believe the answer is hands down a 128i. The chassis is superior to both the E36 and E46 in the geometry of both the front and rear, plus you have excellent factory under body which is worth something on higher speed courses. Then you have the motor - the N52 is good for 240-250whp with bolt ons with better reliability and at a lower weight than the M54. Finally, the chassis is also a shorter wheelbase and they are cheap.
I believe as people start to figure this out, the 128 will replace the e36 as the desirable reasonably priced and reasonable pace track car.
-Mark
Someone already said it, but Miata.
I have two e36 m3s so I love the platform. One is track only with a cage and an s54. I also have an na spec miata. I am convinced that if my first track toy was a miata, my driving would have progressed much faster. Limits are so approachable in a car with 110 whp. I have as much fun in the miata at most tracks (save for cota) and it cost less to acquire and run.
If you are comfortable driving others cars at the track and your friends would let you, I would urge you to drive one. Some people just don't get it or it doesn't quite do it for them. They are used to power and going fast with the right pedal. I totally get that.
To me it is a different driving experience, but the skills are transferable. I was able to turn reasonably quick lap times during a DE in my e36/s54 without coming close to the limit of corner speed. In a miata, the only way to turn reasonably fast lap times is to be at the limit in every corner around the whole course. In order to maximize corner speed in an e36 with a really nice suspension and 255 r-comps or slicks (or even sticky street tires), you are going much faster. That skill of being comfortable at the limit of adhesion in the middle of a corner is transferable to other cars when I get out of the miata.
Plenty of good options here. Here is my opinion though.
E46 non-M. Can easily be found for $500-1000. If your handy with a wrench you can easily fix all of the problems. I just got one for $100 that was stuck in 4th gear (auto), missing most of the interior, and had like 5 CEL codes but drove fine. With the 5 speed swap parts I'm in it $1000 and with some general items probably $2000 (cooling system, headers, intake, bushings).
E36 non-M is pretty much the same. A lot more track parts for them and the E36M parts are pretty much direct fit unlike the E46.
I went head first into an E46 325 with no knowledge of wrenching whatsoever. I find the E46 very easy to work on, mechanically, I have no idea about the electronics so far as I have had few issues with that so far. I love the way it drives and it has yet to really bite me on track, has been very reliable and pretty cheap to maintain and upgrade.
If I was to do another car I would be looking at a Miata or a 130 (the 128 wasn’t available in Europe)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So I guess I’m the odd man out, two years ago, 2017 I picked up an e36 M set up to drive to the track put your work in and drive home for around 10k. It needed tires. I didn’t like the cosmetics and sold it at the end of the season for what I had in the car. Last month I picked up another duel use e36 M, fully set up for the track, a no expense spared type build. It only needed belts, expired. This one was 11k ready to go and very reliable. Car number two is in excellent condition. The catch both cars had salvage titles. That didn’t bother me in the least for a reliable track car that can be driven to the track, driven around the track and driven home. There is a really well set up e36 M duel use track car on the local CL today asking $9500.
Last edited by patrick3000; 09-17-2019 at 05:37 AM.
Karl
97 M3 - Track Toy, 19 Beetle Vert - hers, 18 GT3 Touring - DD, 79 911 SC
I’m faced with this dilemma right now. I’ve owned a Miata race car, Spec E30 and HPDE E36M3. I enjoyed them all. I primarily drive at VIR and thought the M3 was the best application for HPDEs recently because they handle well and are more competitive speed-wise with newer cars, but I had a mechanical failure that totaled the car. So I am trying to decide between another E36M3 or an E 82, which are comparable in weight and power. While I do some wrenching on brakes and suspension and maintenance, I don’t have a garage. So, reliability is important. Safety is important too. With those priorities in mind, I’m leaning toward the E82. However, there are so many more E36s on track than the E82 that when a break down occurs someone always seems to have a spare part available. As a result, the E82 seems more like a gamble, unless more people are beginning to track them. My E30 seemed so dated, that I’m afraid the E36 will suffer the same fate. I hope to decide within the next few days. But, if one car is better for someone without a garage, I may go in that direction.
If I were in your position I would seriously look at the E46 platform. There is a HUGE following for track support and information. Whether it be an E46M3 or a 330Ci both are great track car. The car is old enough that it still feels similar to an E36 and has some real feeling to it. However it is also new enough that it has some basic creature comforts if you are going to drive this car on the street. There are more E46 cars at our events in the NASA Mid South Region than there are E36s at this point. I carry spares and know others that do as well. The 330ci is a little down on power compared to an E36 M3 but have found that not to be an issue. the E46 M3 is a brilliant car and a LOT of fun on track... I keep telling myself that I shouldn't S54 swap my 330ci... With 160k miles on the clock when I first got the car last season I refreshed the cooling system and went over the basics. This year the only things I have done to my e46 are fluid changes and checking brake pads. Oh yeah and tires.
For the Miata:
- Everything said above. Fun, cheap, reliable.
Against the Miata:
- Not much fun to drive on the track with faster cars around you, and at this point almost anything is faster — much faster.
- Convertibles not allowed at lots of track events unless you install a full racing cage and hardtop.
- Cargo space approaches the "toothbrush and a condom" category, so you may need to trailer it unless there's a companion vehicle for your stuff.
Neil
Neil you are absolutely right, though the newer Miatas are a bit better in the power department but 100HP is kind of hard to do HPDE when you're constantly giving point bys...
Now a couple of my Miata friends are about to start doing K Swaps on their Miatas... That changes the ball game!
I drive to the track, so a Miata is out of the question because there is no room for extra wheels, tools, canopy, chair etc. plus, I usually go to BMW events and my E30 and Miata are uncomfortably slow.
The E36 M3 is a tried and true track car which was absolutely incredible on track, but I was frustrated with the substandard interior build quality. However, it didn’t take too much work to become track-ready. I had the RTAB mounts reinforced; changed brake pads, rotors, fluids; obtained a second set of wheels and tires; replaced the cooling system; and installed a roll bar, racing seats and harnesses. It fit my needs very well, but I did have a power steering hose failure and 2 cooling system failures (one of which sent me into the wall at high speed).
Doesn’t the E46 chassis require RTAB chassis reinforcements AND rear subframe reinforcements before tracking? If so, that adds at least $2k to the acquisition cosT. however, the interior is nicer, which makes it better to drive around town and/or to the track. Plus, it’s newer, so as Pzary mentioned - there is good support at the track.
I’m not sure what might make the E90 preferable over an E82. It just seems like a bloated version of the E82.
I don’t believe the E82 requires any chassis reinforcements, but it doesn’t have an LSD. And it’s comparable in size and power to the E36, but has a more refined interior, which is nice for non-track driving, and more sophisticated suspension, which is a double edged sword. Are there many more components to upgrade to make track worthy, and is it more complex to understand the setup, etc? My thought is that the 128 will be a better track car in the long run for HPDEs, but my concern is that the 128 is really an unknown to me at this point and may never mature to point of the E36 and e46 “gold standards.” How hard and expensive is it to get track ready such that it could compete with an E36 M3?
Will a 128i cost more than an E36M3 to prepare equally for the track?
I think a 128i will cost more than an E36, just because the E36 aftermarket is bigger and filled with more used parts. I'm pretty sure you can get a quality coilover kit for an E36 for much cheaper than a 128i. I just sold my 128i because I didn't want to prep it ($$$) but my to-do list would have started as such:
- bushings, a minimum of the stiffer rubber M3 bushings if not poly
- wheels and tires
- brake pads
- coilover setup
- sway bar
- seats
- power adders
The first five things I probably would do at the same time, but definitely bushings first. The stock ones are so soft that just getting the E90 M3 solid rubber ones would be a huge upgrade. Once you get to coilovers, sway bars and power adders, I'm sure you can find it for the E36 much cheaper because of the bigger used market.
I think you'll spend quite a bit more prepping a e82 compared to an e36 or e46. The chassis reinforcements are needed on the e36 and d46 car... However, where are these 1 series cars going to be in the same amount of time? I bet there will be kits for them as well... I've got over 10k including the purchase price of my e46 non M but the car is rock solid ready to track. MCS, Ground Control, Rogue, SPL, Vorshlag Etc. I have NOT done the chassis reinforcements yet and check them after every event. I do plan to do them this winter. Any car you track is going to have downsides and up sides. Choose wisely based upon what YOU need. For Example a stock e92 M3 is a fun car, but I found it blah compared to my prepped car on track.
I would imagine you'd have to do the same things to the e82 as you would the e36 or e46 to make it competitive the newer the car the less development for the track...
I don't think the E82 needs the same reinforcements as the E36/E46. It's been 10+ years since they came out. Those weaknesses, if any, should have come out by now. They surely did for the E36 and E46,
Bookmarks